Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Chief]

I can guarantee that people were there for genuine concerns

But what are these concerns that you can see?

All I could see was the anti-trans celeb-fash whipping people up.

 

[ShanDog]

But what are these concerns that you can see?

All I could see was the anti-trans celeb-fash whipping people up.

Medicalisation of youth, fairness in sports and safe sex-segregated spaces are the big ones that most people are interested in. Some people really take issue with inappropriate materials being given to children and drag shows etc, but I really don't see the major issue there. Parents have a lot of say in what their children are exposed to, e.g. if material at school doesn't sit well with you, speak to the school, and if you don't like drag shows them don't take your 5 year old kid there...

Of course there are the fringe that exist like with any movement who probably just find the whole thing icky. However, that shouldn't detract from the legitimate concerns people have or be justification for labelling anyone who takes issue with some of those big ticket items as bigots or transphobes.

 

[Gralin]

The international celebrity guest at the anti-trans rally.

TBH I don't even know if her backers organised and paid for it, or if she's a guest of local anti-trans groups. What's the story?

Kellie-Jay Keen has been running in white nationalist circles for a long time.

She's anti abortion, anti contraception, anti Muslim, it's a long list that if she wasn't also anti Trans would have a lot of people looking at her a lot more side eyed than they do.

For some reason being anti trans is a nice shield for other types of bigotry because the terfs will claim the rest is a false flag like how they claimed the nazis were actually antifa in disguise.

Or how they have claimed the cops were protecting the terfs from the counter protestors and saying they were trying to storm the stage not get to the nazis.

KJK was brought out here by CPAC and kirralie smith.
Reclaim Australia people are also involved somehow along with the local terfs like Sall Grover and Angie Jones , Katherine Deves, Moria Deeming.

Apart from supposedly being here to let women speak KJK is lobbying for girls in Australia to be banned from having access to the pill just for shits and giggles

 

[evolved2]

Medicalisation of youth, fairness in sports and safe sex-segregated spaces are the big ones that most people are interested in. Some people really take issue with inappropriate materials being given to children and drag shows etc, but I really don't see the major issue there. Parents have a lot of say in what their children are exposed to, e.g. if material at school doesn't sit well with you, speak to the school, and if you don't like drag shows them don't take your 5 year old kid there...

Of course there are the fringe that exist like with any movement who probably just find the whole thing icky. However, that shouldn't detract from the legitimate concerns people have or be justification for labelling anyone who takes issue with some of those big ticket items as bigots or transphobes.

Segregation in prison by biological sex or gender identity is another issue that's come to prominence.

It's nice to see a different angle here.

 

[gouki88]

Ease down a bit.

Nah, I’m good. He’s trying to paint these POS as having “genuine concerns”, when the person they were there to see and celebrate is complete garbage. Indefensible position

 

[evolved2]

First and last question on this thread for at least a month, and probably a lot longer than that.

Is there a place for female-only advocating feminists or are they all just TERFS?

 

[Chief]

KJK was brought out here by CPAC and kirralie smith.

Ah! I remember now. I had read about it.

 

[ShanDog]

Kellie-Jay Keen has been running in white nationalist circles for a long time.

She's anti abortion, anti contraception, anti Muslim, it's a long list that if she wasn't also anti Trans would have a lot of people looking at her a lot more side eyed than they do.

For some reason being anti trans is a nice shield for other types of bigotry because the terfs will claim the rest is a false flag like how they claimed the nazis were actually antifa in disguise.

Or how they have claimed the cops were protecting the terfs from the counter protestors and saying they were trying to storm the stage not get to the nazis.

KJK was brought out here by CPAC and kirralie smith.
Reclaim Australia people are also involved somehow along with the local terfs like Sall Grover and Angie Jones , Katherine Deves, Moria Deeming.

Apart from supposedly being here to let women speak KJK is lobbying for girls in Australia to be banned from having access to the pill just for shits and giggles

She sounds a bit shit.

 

[gouki88]

First and last question on this thread for at least a month, and probably a lot longer than that.

Is there a place for female-only advocating feminists or are they all just TERFS?

Your question is by nature invalidating trans women, yet you seem eager to feign shock at the TERF label.

 

[evolved2]

Your question is by nature invalidating trans women, yet you seem eager to feign shock at the TERF label.

Trans women are women and I don't find feminists like Germaine Greer to be radical at all. My preference is for both groups to co-exist peacefully, but that's clearly not a probable outcome.

 

[Chief]

that shouldn't detract from the legitimate concerns people have or be justification for labelling anyone who takes issue with some of those big ticket items as bigots or transphobes.

They were there to be wowed by an international bigot.

The Nazi march-past was the perfect backdrop.

It's like the old rallies from 5 or so years ago attracting "Aussie mums and dads" to a patriotism picnic. Support dried up when some of the organisers etc were found making bombs.

Rip the band-aid off now. Show them what they will become if they go down this path of hate.

If people have concerns they think are legitimate, take it up with their school, sports club or whatever.

But I think these concerns have little to no legitimacy. I think they are tiny gripes in a continuous adjustment to new realities.

They should focus on the real problems of trafficking and abuse at home and in institutions if they really want to save the children.

Sweary swearing please don't watch this:

 

[gouki88]

Trans women are women and I don't find feminists like Germaine Greer to be radical at all. My preference is for both groups to co-exist peacefully, but that's clearly not a probable outcome.

Your preference is impossible, given one group wants the other to cease existing

 

[Chief]

KJK is lobbying for girls in Australia to be banned from having access to the pill just for shits and giggles

Jesus.

Still at least she isn't shouting at Nazis. That'll get you held down and kneed in the head by a bigot cop.

 

[ShanDog]

They were there to be wowed by an international bigot.

The Nazi march-past was the perfect backdrop.

It's like the old rallies from 5 or so years ago attracting "Aussie mums and dads" to a patriotism picnic. Support dried up when some of the organisers etc were found making bombs.

Rip the band-aid off now. Show them what they will become if they go down this path of hate.

If people have concerns they think are legitimate, take it up with their school, sports club or whatever.

But I think these concerns have little to no legitimacy. I think they are tiny gripes in a continuous adjustment to new realities.

They should focus on the real problems of trafficking and abuse at home and in institutions if they really want to save the children.

Sweary swearing please don't watch this:

You're probably right that throwing your lot in with that particular crowd is a bad move, but I fundamentally disagree with you view that any of those other concerns I mentioned are just a failure to "adjust to new realities". Females being r*ped in prisons by transwomen isn't a new reality - it's a new phenomenon. As is transwomen playing against females in sport. And even more significantly, the actual new reality is that the UK, Sweden, Finland and (from memory) Norway - advanced countries with excellent public health and university systems - are pumping the brakes HARD on gender affirming care as a medical approach. We are only just now starting to develop a body of evidence and studies to assess repercussions of how trans youth medicine and care is done, and the evidence according to these places is that it's effectively a rockshow of experimental drug use and poor record keeping that goes against medical principles. The origins of gender affirming care are very, VERY dubious and not at all based in tested methods. If they aren't legitimate concerns... I dunno man.

 

[Chief]

If people are being unethical in that sector then of course crack down.

If prisons are mismanaged then of course improve them. But let's not pretend all the rape in prison is by pre-surgery trans women, nor that I include that in the new reality of societal acceptance of trans people.

The two trans kids I know are perfectly happy. The trans people who have spoken up on this forum seem as happy as anyone else. De-transitioning is at a single figure % I believe.

It seems that I hear all this bad stuff from everyone BUT trans people.

 

[gouki88]

You're probably right that throwing your lot in with that particular crowd is a bad move, but I fundamentally disagree with you view that any of those other concerns I mentioned are just a failure to "adjust to new realities". Females being r*ped in prisons by transwomen isn't a new reality - it's a new phenomenon. As is transwomen playing against females in sport. And even more significantly, the actual new reality is that the UK, Sweden, Finland and (from memory) Norway - advanced countries with excellent public health and university systems - are pumping the brakes HARD on gender affirming care as a medical approach. We are only just now starting to develop a body of evidence and studies to assess repercussions of how trans youth medicine and care is done, and the evidence according to these places is that it's effectively a rockshow of experimental drug use and poor record keeping that goes against medical principles. The origins of gender affirming care are very, VERY dubious and not at all based in tested methods. If they aren't legitimate concerns... I dunno man.

How many instances are there of this rape you speak of? Who are the trans women dominating women’s sport? What about developed countries going the other way? Why would you want to land on the side of refusing autonomy and pushing marginalisation in the face of uncertain science?

 

[evolved2]

Your preference is impossible, given one group wants the other to cease existing

With due respect, I'll pull out of this discussion before the Hawk supermod threadbans me. I find discussion on this thread rather shallow for the most part, but at least it isn't bigoted. That's a win over most social media.

 

[Gralin]

She sounds a bit s**t.

She is, this is just her latest angle.

This is a big part of the issue, that people like her are driving this conversation and where they are getting the money from to do that

And the absolute worst part is the people pushing this don't have legit concerns, they're preying on people's fears and the end results are laws that discriminate against the people they say they are trying to protect.

It's largely a trojan horse for their real agenda. They're attacking the group they think it's easiest to drive public support against.

 

[Gralin]

First and last question on this thread for at least a month, and probably a lot longer than that.

Is there a place for female-only advocating feminists or are they all just TERFS?

My question would be how do you define female only advocating feminists?

As in what does that look like and mean.

And I promise not to ban you for answering.

I can't answer your question without knowing what you mean.

Trans women are women and I don't find feminists like Germaine Greer to be radical at all. My preference is for both groups to co-exist peacefully, but that's clearly not a probable outcome.

Germaine Greer was considered a rad fem decades ago.

Radical feminism was a thing before the trans exclusionary was added.

There are feminsts that are anti sex work, there are many feminists throughout history that were racist or homophobic.

Their brand of feminism was as you'd expect tied to their identity and their ideology.

Greer doesn't agree with you that trans women are women btw.

 

[Gough]

How many instances are there of this rape you speak of? Who are the trans women dominating women’s sport? What about developed countries going the other way? Why would you want to land on the side of refusing autonomy and pushing marginalisation in the face of uncertain science?

The trans woman's supposed advantage in sport is a good example of repeat the same lie often enough people will believe it because aside from Lia Thomas winning some divisional college titles there's really no example of trans women dominating any sport.

 

[ShanDog]

The trans woman's supposed advantage in sport is a good example of repeat the same lie often enough people will believe it because aside from Lia Thomas winning some divisional college titles there's really no example of trans women dominating any sport.

The fact that restrictions (regardless of how much) have been in place that limit testosterone etc in transwomen should be evidence enough to you that the physiological advantage is very real. There's no 'supposed' about it. I'm sure if you'd care to look you will also find more examples too. But hand-waving it all away is much easier, just like young-earthers and that science too eh?

 

[Gough]

So where are all these trans women dominating sport then?

 

[ShanDog]

So where are all these trans women dominating sport then?

Before bothering to respond to this tired, old motte-and-bailey argument, instead you should clarify - at what level would you consider it an actual problem worth discussing (or even acknowledging exists)? Is it at local amateur sports level? Representative amateur sports? Only when there's something 'significant' on the line like education scholarships, such as with university/college level semi-professional competition? Or should we only care when it's at the peak of professional sports and olympics etc? Which women matter to you?

 

[Gough]

Before bothering to respond to this tired, old motte-and-bailey argument, instead you should clarify - at what level would you consider it an actual problem worth discussing (or even acknowledging exists)? Is it at local amateur sports level? Representative amateur sports? Only when there's something 'significant' on the line like education scholarships, such as with university/college level semi-professional competition? Or should we only care when it's at the peak of professional sports and olympics etc? Which women matter to you?

All levels. Show me some examples of where trans women are dominating amateur sports.

 

[ShanDog]

All levels. Show me some examples of where trans women are dominating amateur sports.

Again, why is there a benchmark of 'dominating' the sport? This is why it's a motte and Bailey. The question of fairness (and safety) is not predicated on there being any domination.

In any case, I'll do your homework for you. Unfortunately it's actual work time now, so you'll have to be patient.