Travis Cloke - Some Perspective

[Thommo 42]

Did you watch the game last night?

How many times did he break clear, put on a good lead and have the ball kicked over his head?

I couldn't f#cking believe it, first game I've attended this year at the G and I watched in horror at our lack of skills going I50

 

[ChipDouglas]

Prior to tonights game:

2008 Stats

Travis Cloke

Kicks per Game: 10.4
Handballs per game: 3.0
Disposals per game: 13.4
Marks per game: 7.2
Goals per game: 1.6
Tackles per game: 1.2
Inside 50s per game: 4.1
Goal Assists per game: 0.6
Goals Contributed per game: 2.2

Chris Tarrant

Kicks per Game: 9.2
Handballs per game: 3.9
Disposals per game: 13.1
Marks per game: 5.9
Goals per game: 1.5
Tackles per game: 2.2
Inside 50s per game: 3.8
Goal Assists per game: 1.0
Goals Contributed per game: 2.5


The form of Travis Cloke needs to be brought into perspective.

Let's hear all the excuses for his season which is barely better than laughing stock Tarrant at the Dockers, who is hardly a focal point for them.

Oh and by the way, if you think age is an excuse.......

Bear in mind that he is the same age as the guy down the other end wearing number 23 tonight.

What is the point of this post? Yes his season to date has been well below his Copeland form but so what, he has plenty of mates. His stats would be better (and are better) with Rocca in the side as he's now drawing the best defender. Tarrant plays on a half back flanker every week. He'll only get better unless we decide to trade him.

 

[bradrowe#32]

He'll be fine.

It's not all doom and gloom.

 

[Teh_Nub]

Did you watch the game last night?

How many times did he break clear, put on a good lead and have the ball kicked over his head?

I couldn't f#cking believe it, first game I've attended this year at the G and I watched in horror at our lack of skills going I50

I no but i think when hes on his lead he stays on it, he doesn't change his position to get the ball if its kicked to high or to wide.

Forwards who get horrible delivery can still get goals and what kind of delivery did he get before AFL, surely it wouldn't have been better then what it is.

 

[Pie eyed]

Cloke is having an average year. He is a very good player though. Not quite elite, but very good.

Cloke gets more contested footy than Tarrant and those stats don't paint a very clear picture, especially for KPPs.

Cloke is not a kid, but is still very young in footy terms. And yes Roughead and Franklin are also very young. However why are we comparing them to him? He is probably still 3rd best KPP behind those 2 under 23. Roughead only leapt out of nowhere this year and Clokey himself would thrive having someone like Franklin to work with let alone the delivery and clearance work of Hodge, Mitchell and co. and to not have to carry the team's forward line at CHF.

Bingo. Conversely put Buddy in our forward line the last 3 weeks and we would be discussing him in this same thread.
When's Rocca fit? He is still the key and without him even if we make the finals we are just filling holes every week.
Rocca, Wakes and Presti get em fit get em in.

 

[nonamehack]

Prior to tonights game:

2008 Stats

Travis Cloke

Kicks per Game: 10.4
Handballs per game: 3.0
Disposals per game: 13.4
Marks per game: 7.2
Goals per game: 1.6
Tackles per game: 1.2
Inside 50s per game: 4.1
Goal Assists per game: 0.6
Goals Contributed per game: 2.2

I'm not saying Travis Cloke is having the best season, but obviously stats don't tell the total picture. There is no doubt the last few weeks Trav has had some dogs of games, but still has had some valuable contributions throughout the season, moreso when there has been another big tall forward in the team.

But if we are to look at stats.
Last year, Travis Cloke E.W. Copeland Trophy winner stats were...

Kicks per Game: 11.8
Handballs per game: 2.7
Disposals per game: 14.5
Marks per game: 7.4
Goals per game: 1.6
Tackles per game: 2.0
Inside 50s per game: 4.8
Goal Assists per game: 0.7
Goals Contributed per game: 2.3

If we were looking at just the stats then I'd say that would tell me that his output this season very slightly under par with what he did last year when he was Best and Fairest. Given that Rocca isn't there and of late the midfield is getting smashed how is a forward such as Cloke meant to get the quality supply that he deserves?

Nearly every other finals teams have 2 power forwards. ATM Pies have only 1, where Cloke is young, and I'm using young as a reason, its hard to throw all this weight on the shoulders of a 21 year old.

Medhurst is having the standout year in the forward line, so from the 12 pies games I've seen sitting in the outer I'd say that the attack has gone more towards him, with Trav being more a link up man a bit further up the ground. Well thats before he had a few poor games.

 

[boulos]

He hasn't been alone in the forward line all season. He's had Rocca, Reid and now Anthony in the team as big forwards.

 

[adzarani]

Interesting responses, seems to be consensus that he doesn't have the support of another KP forward. Fair bit of merit to that I guess.

What isn't surprising though is that noone said anything like:

"It's the quality of his touches"

"He is crucial to the structure of our fwd line"

"His sheer aggression at the contest, lifts the side and fires the troops"

"He uses the ball well and is always a danger whenever he has it"

"He thrives on the responsibility of being the No. 1 fwd and it's only a matter of time before he starts grabbing games by the scruff of the neck"

No.....because those statements don't apply to Travis Cloke

Instead everyone shifted all responsibility away from him, toward the rest of the team......

Let's forget about reasons for him not getting the footy and start looking at what he does once he actually has the ball:

Mindless bombs into the forward 50

Uncertainty when he has the ball outside 50, often resulting in a 1/2 shot / long bomb, often to the team's detrement.

Slow to spot up running midfielders and leading forwards once he has it

Rabbit in the spotlight approach to set shots

and when he doesn't have the ball:

Struggles to loose his opponent 1 on 1 without running 70 meters up the ground.

Often has minimal impact on a pack mark situation unless he takes the mark.

Defensive work is ok but overall pretty low intensity.


Don't get me wrong, I think T.Cloke is an outstanding football talent.

But I think alot of his shorcomings have been exposed under the harsh conditions (like many others) of playing at Collingwood in 2008

Maybe it's time to start looking at him as a swingman and/or the answer to our key defender void. He has all the assets to make an elite defender but seems to be missing some of the elements to make a elite forward.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I'm not even slightly concerned by Travis Cloke. His best games have come when opposition teams have played him 1-on-1 or 1-on-2. He plays particulary well against Geelong because they defend him this way. When Rocca is down, or teams flood, he struggles just like everyone else.

If we can get another healthy key forward to stretch the opposition's defence, and improve our midfield delivery, he'll have a fantastic season. Let's not forget he won the Copeland last year, we know what an important role he plays in the team and how far he's come at such a young age. Comparisons to Buddy aren't helpful, there's only one of those in the competition.

 

[kevind]

I'm not even slightly concerned by Travis Cloke. His best games have come when opposition teams have played him 1-on-1 or 1-on-2. He plays particulary well against Geelong because they defend him this way. When Rocca is down, or teams flood, he struggles just like everyone else.

If we can get another healthy key forward to stretch the opposition's defence, and improve our midfield delivery, he'll have a fantastic season. Let's not forget he won the Copeland last year, we know what an important role he plays in the team and how far he's come at such a young age. Comparisons to Buddy aren't helpful, there's only one of those in the competition.

I am concerned about T Cloke. He is a key forward who struggles to kick goals and he plays too many games when he has absolutely no effect on the game. I know good players can play bad games but Travis plays far too many to be worthy of the lofty reputation that certain Pies supporters have bestowed upon him.

Certainly the poor foot skills in front of him may be a reasonable excuse for his form but I think it is being overplayed a little eg Medhurst is faced with the same problem but still manages to worry the scoreboard.

If he does not improve his goalkicking i.e. kicks more goals per game , I think it may be time to play him at CHB where his weapons of endurance running , height and long kicking could solve the lack of a key defender.

How he won the Copeland last year still staggers me.

 

[adzarani]

If we can get another healthy key forward to stretch the opposition's defence, and improve our midfield delivery, he'll have a fantastic season. Let's not forget he won the Copeland last year, we know what an important role he plays in the team and how far he's come at such a young age. Comparisons to Buddy aren't helpful, there's only one of those in the competition.

He is getting enough of the ball at the moment........the supply/delivery reasoning is valid but doesn't account for what he does when he has the ball.

A club champion shouldn't be waiting for another key forward to "stretch" the opposition anyway. Are you suggesting he is only ever going to be a No 2 or No 3 forward......if thats the case he definetly needs to be moulded into a defender.

Tarrant would have been a superstar by the same measures. His downfall was the expectation to kick goals, Cloke has been spared this expectation for some reason.

I think Cloke has the potential to compete with Buddy.......playing as a full back.

I reckon Cloke is the answer to our need for a big bodied, mobile defender.

But I don't think he is our 60+ goal a year man.

CHF is virtually an obsolete position. Nothing about his work across half forward is central with our game plan anyway.

His potential as a key defender, with his judgement of the incoming ball is greater than is potential as a key forward imo.

 

[Damon_3388]

It's not the only reason for his 2007 success, but last year Cloke had Anthony Rocca playing probably his best season with 60+ goals. Nobody is saying that Cloke is capable of 10 marks every other week like Matthew Richardson, nor are they saying he's a volume goalkicker of the Lance Franklin variety. Most people just consider him a good forward target for Collingwood. He's hardly overhyped IMO.

I really think the main issue is that he's the delivery needs to improve (not his fault, but it affects his production), and maybe he needs to maybe develop a bit bigger workrate around the ground, so that he can get closer to a peak Richardson or a peak Warren Tredrea-style CHF in terms of marking power. When it comes to goalkicking though, I don't really see him as a #1 forward anyway. More of a complimentary guy, like Roughead is to Franklin. That could be just because he doesn't get the opportunities right now, I don't know, but time will tell. He's certainly the best of the Clokes that have been at Collingwood recently, and I'd obviously much rather have him in the side than not.

 

[Lensen]

I reckon he'd go alright in a side that worked out that a spot about 1.5m above his head is not the best spot to kick it to him, especially when he's one on three

I don't think I've ever felt as sorry for an AFL footballer as I do for this bloke.

 

[shawthing09]

Your a stats freak and no very little about football from the looks of things. Trav has had to deal with defenders zoning off in his space when he stays deep, has had to play far deeper at stages this year then he would be used to. If you look at friday night I think late in the third he had the most inside 50's for no goal assits simply because once he gets it outside 50 there is no one to kick it too.

Your favourite statistically good player Anthony is shown very little respect by opposition who are very happy to zone off JA to block space in front of Medhurst and Cloke as a result when Cloke gets it outside 50 he has no one to kick it too. If he stays deep a host of defenders zone off others into Clokes space more often then not

 

[shawthing09]

He is getting enough of the ball at the moment........the supply/delivery reasoning is valid but doesn't account for what he does when he has the ball.

A club champion shouldn't be waiting for another key forward to "stretch" the opposition anyway. Are you suggesting he is only ever going to be a No 2 or No 3 forward......if thats the case he definetly needs to be moulded into a defender.

Tarrant would have been a superstar by the same measures. His downfall was the expectation to kick goals, Cloke has been spared this expectation for some reason.

I think Cloke has the potential to compete with Buddy.......playing as a full back.

I reckon Cloke is the answer to our need for a big bodied, mobile defender.

But I don't think he is our 60+ goal a year man.

CHF is virtually an obsolete position. Nothing about his work across half forward is central with our game plan anyway.

His potential as a key defender, with his judgement of the incoming ball is greater than is potential as a key forward imo.

Probably end up repeating myself a bit here but, if we ever develop a more direct game plan then CHF will be obselete and he will be under more presure to play deeper as a foward and he will be in trouble in terms of needing to kick straighter etc.

Atm with our chipping along the sides gameplan we need Cloke to straighten us up and play in a much more traditional CHF role, the problem is if he plays that role he needs a FF to kick it too.

As a FF I would agree that his returns have not been great, in parts due to kicking and in parts due to going missing. That said there are not many teams with foward lines as one dimensional as ours have been when Trav has been forced to play deep, Nor are there many fowards who's entries into foward 50 are often as bad as Trav has to deal with

 

[adzarani]

Your a stats freak and no very little about football from the looks of things. Trav has had to deal with defenders zoning off in his space when he stays deep, has had to play far deeper at stages this year then he would be used to. If you look at friday night I think late in the third he had the most inside 50's for no goal assits simply because once he gets it outside 50 there is no one to kick it too.

Your favourite statistically good player Anthony is shown very little respect by opposition who are very happy to zone off JA to block space in front of Medhurst and Cloke as a result when Cloke gets it outside 50 he has no one to kick it too. If he stays deep a host of defenders zone off others into Clokes space more often then not

Why to they bother recording stats?

Everyone has to deal with defenders zoning off in thier space. Especially key forwards in the AFL.....if he can't handle it, he can't handle the role move him down back. It's not going to get any easier, in the years ahead. Rocca may have another year, but Reid and Rusling have barely won their spots.

He might try crashing into a few packs and/or zoning players once in a while and proactively trying to make opportunities for himself instead of expecting silver service which he should knows he isn't going to get. Rocca has for years, even when Bucks was in the side.

Medhurst is half a foot shorter than him, has the same delivery problems, is often paid more attention, and has managed nearly twice as many goals and more marks.

Cloke has had PLENTY of the FOOTBALL this year. He has had countless opportunities to stamp his authority on the contest, and doesn't.

He is not a goalkicker or a playmaker. He hurts us alot more than people think.

He has failed miserably as the No. 1 forward.

Just the fact that most of the football public talk about Collingwood as if we don't even have a key forward is a shocking reflection on T.Cloke.

Cloke also does himself no favours by running long and wide, insead of stepping on his opponent's feet and running where he wants to. He gets forced into bad positions constantly.

As for friday night, everyone is calling for Lockyer and whoever elses head, but who had nearly twice as many clangers as anyone else?........T.Cloke...9 clangers.

He continually butchers the ball and doesn't think.

But he is immune to any criticism because of the Collingwood baby syndrome, for other examples see Fraser and Tarrant.

Bottomline is Cloke is no better than Tarrant, and should be turned into a defender imo.

Time will tell, but I doubt he is going to get any better just by blowing out a few sets of candles.


*as for JA, at the time I pointed out he was manned up on by Rutten and Watt in consecutive weeks, and they did not zone off, they played him man on man. You still don't seem to have digested that.

* you were the one who ripped into a guy after his 4th game saying he wasn't even in the top 50 forwards in the comp. I posted the player rankings which showed he was right up there in top 50, when in fact it was Cloke who was barely in the Top 50 forwards. (just another example of how little you appear to know about football)