Truck drives through crowd in Nice

[King Elvis]

Incredibilly depressing.

I feel like we're simultaneously arguing and agreeing.

Your comment about the Gulf War jihad is correct - but also proves my point. This isn't a rational situation (like the IRA) with a clear enemy and objective; it's a religiously motivated war - that I don't think we in the West knew we were fighting. Almost everyone in the world thought the first Gulf War was justified; Saddam himself was actually quite anti-Wahhabism and anti-Taliban; yet those people flocked to the region in response to the war.

Also, Bali bombings were prior to the War on Terror.
Things like Charlie Hedbo; the motivation given wasn't the WoT; it was insulting Islam.

Religious fanatics of any persuasion are horrible; there seems to be a hell of a lot more of them in Islam, willing to go to any extent.

Incredibly depressing.

 

[Saintt]

Ireland was an oppressed group using terrorism to fight a foreign power, hence the bombings on British soil.

The aim is to inflict terror to either force the foreigners to leave, or to force them into a confrontation. Even when committed against combatants it's horrible, but unfortunately the easiest targets are civilians.

There won't be a trigger, even if we pull out now it will be decades before it stops, but it will stop.

I suppose one of the biggest differences- aside from culture -is that killing large amount of people is much easier now than it was 200+ years ago. Any nutcase with an assault rifle/backpack bomb can kills hundreds of people these days. My question is; why has it been happening so much recently? These problems as you've pointed out have been happening for centuries, but we're only now seeing this sort of chaos. Why? Islam has been around for 1500 years; colonialism has been around for 500. So why now?

And mass immigration from the Middle East has been around for how long?

 

[EagleMan87]

Incredibilly depressing.

I feel like we're simultaneously arguing and agreeing.

Your comment about the Gulf War jihad is correct - but also proves my point. This isn't a rational situation (like the IRA) with a clear enemy and objective; it's a religiously motivated war - that I don't think we in the West knew we were fighting. Almost everyone in the world thought the first Gulf War was justified; Saddam himself was actually quite anti-Wahhabism and anti-Taliban; yet those people flocked to the region in response to the war.

Also, Bali bombings were prior to the War on Terror.
Things like Charlie Hedbo; the motivation given wasn't the WoT; it was insulting Islam.

Religious fanatics of any persuasion are horrible; there seems to be a hell of a lot more of them in Islam, willing to go to any extent.

Incredibly depressing.

Yeah, I think we're both on the same page, we're just taking different interpretations from it, which is a nice microcosm for all this mess.

I'd say to ME people, joining up against the US and allies would be considered rational; the West caused a lot of deaths and interfered in the region for a long time. I agree that we didn't realise what we were getting into, but we should have, especially after the Soviet-Afghan debacle.

True regarding the BB, that was also the only major terrorist attack against westerners in the SE to date IIRC.

I consider the Islamic terrorists and the random mass shootings in the US as a symptom of the same disease; again, I don't know what it is, but it seems to me that people are using Islam as an excuse to kill people, rather than it being the reason.

I'm sure if we all use our think-brains we can work out the problem one day.

 

[EagleMan87]

And mass immigration from the Middle East has been around for how long?

Since the 70's, with the Syria/Lebanon occupation as a particular cause. Why weren't there mass terrorist attacks back then(genuine question)?

 

[Saintt]

True, they didn't attack other countries- because no country apart from the UK was interfering. How many terrorist attacks are perpetrated against countries that weren't part of the War on Terror?

The same applies to this spate of terrorism; even though Saddam was a shit that invaded Kuwait, as soon as the West stepped in there was a Jihad called and thousands of Islamic freedom fighters/terrorists joined ranks against the encroaching Western forces.

It will hopefully stop; these things are usually cyclical and peter out eventually, but the world is a much different place nowadays. You didn't see regular psychopaths killing so many people(I include the mass shootings in America in this) 50 years ago, but all of a sudden there are mass shooting/bombings seemingly everywhere. I'd like to say education is the key, but there will always be people who wilfully ignore it and latch onto their hatred. It's depressing.

Irish terrorists had a clear goal when fighting the British, what exactly are these terrorists aiming to achieve? France didn't even support the war in Iraq! And how does this explain the numerous terrorists attacks in India, Thailand, China etc?

 

[EagleMan87]

Irish terrorists had a clear goal when fighting the British, what exactly are these terrorists aiming to achieve? France didn't even support the war in Iraq! And how does this explain the numerous terrorists attacks in India, Thailand, China etc?

As above, I think the overall cause of a lot of the angst is to rid the ME of outside interference, same as the Irish wanted. Unfortunately a lot of psychopaths seem to have taken over and are just looking for a reason to kill people.

All the countries you've mentioned have minority Islamic populations that are trod upon or feel as if they are. Again, I'm not saying this justifies what they do or that I agree with it, I'm just saying I understand why they're doing it.

 

[Saintt]

As above, I think the overall cause of a lot of the angst is to rid the ME of outside interference, same as the Irish wanted. Unfortunately a lot of psychopaths seem to have taken over and are just looking for a reason to kill people.

All the countries you've mentioned have minority Islamic populations that are trod upon or feel as if they are. Again, I'm not saying this justifies what they do or that I agree with it, I'm just saying I understand why they're doing it.

ISIS have never stated it's because of the war in Iraq, they state they want a worldwide caliphate and the death of infidels, why would they lie? Saddam Hussein kept groups like ISIS at bay, without him they took control so if anything they should be thanking us. There is momentum around ISIS since their rise in the Middle East that wasn't there before and I feel that's inspiring Muslims to join them.

 

[EagleMan87]

ISIS have never stated it's because of the war in Iraq, they state they want a worldwide caliphate and the death of infidels, why would they lie? Saddam Hussein kept groups like ISIS at bay, without him they took control so if anything they should be thanking us. There is momentum around ISIS since their rise in the Middle East that wasn't there before and I feel that's inspiring Muslims to join them.

Just because they don't state it, doesn't mean it wasn't a factor. In fact ISIS didn't start their rise until Libya/Syria, long after Saddam had been overthrown. You're right about momentum, but that won't last forever.

I'm not an authority on this sort of thing though, MaddAdam is the guy to ask.

 

[Dan Moody]

France is a Western Ally....The symmetry between Bastille day & the U.S declaration is undeniable.

France also, as FP pointed out, have a history of occupation on Arab lands....Algiers being a classic example.

This was a pointed attack at the hypocrisy at the heart of France's Democracy....Where are the Arabs rights?



Yes....The West needs to get the **** out of the Middle East.....Show some respect for their culture & they'll likely return the compliment.

Now this, this, gave me the biggest belly laugh I've had in ages.
I'm generally a balanced individual, like to think of both points of view.
But I'm at the point where I've had enough, these ****ers either haven't blatant or latent acceptance of religions or beliefs other than theirs.
**** their culture, dressing women head to toe so they can't be seen by westerners. Allowing child brides, throwing homosexuals off buildings, it goes on.
The Bible is full of old school shit like this e.g. Beat your woman if she deserves etc, stone infidels and other irrelevant crap in this day and age. Roman Catholics don't go around attempting to retain ideals from the bible like these nut jobs.
Western culture has a lot to answer for, but their doesn't appear to be this inherent hatred of all things other than themselves like Muslim culture.
Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are..... Is starting to actually make sense the longer these idiots perpetuate horrific violent acts against innocents.

 

[King Elvis]

Since the 70's, with the Syria/Lebanon occupation as a particular cause. Why weren't there mass terrorist attacks back then(genuine question)?

Weren't most Lebanese immigrants Christian?

But I'm at the point where I've had enough, these gooses either haven't blatant or latent acceptance of religions or beliefs other than theirs.
**** their culture, dressing women head to toe so they can't be seen by westerners. Allowing child brides, throwing homosexuals off buildings, it goes on.
The Bible is full of old school shit like this e.g. Beat your woman if she deserves etc, stone infidels and other irrelevant crap in this day and age. Roman Catholics don't go around attempting to retain ideals from the bible like these nut jobs.
Western culture has a lot to answer for, but their doesn't appear to be this inherent hatred of all things other than themselves like Muslim culture.
Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are..... Is starting to actually make sense the longer these idiots perpetuate horrific violent acts against innocents.

This is the other massive elephant in the room, that no one wants to discuss.

I don't believe Islam ever had a New Testament type Age of Enlightenment; and what progress the religion did make in modernizing has largely been reversed in the last 50 years.

Western Culture has become so tolerant; that we've effectively become apologists for a religion that is largely interpreted and followed in what I consider to be a barbaric manner.

If we had a mass movement of white Christians to the Old Testament, with hatred and violence towards gays was justified, the relegation of women to being considered property and second class citizens; strip away their right to vote, their right to drive, their right to be in public without a man, allow 'justice' to be doled out by family members, forcing women to dress in a completely dehumanizing manner, arranged marriages involving adults and frequently pre-pubescent girls to be common place, and hatred and intolerance towards other religions... How do you think the rest of our society would react?

With tolerance and understanding, or with outrage and disgust?

I temper the above with the fact that there are also moderate, progressive Muslims; but they seem to be in the minority.

 

[Gough]

You just neatly summed the conservative wing of the Parliamentary Liberal Party. Tone, and Cory are far closer to these campaigners in ideology than either would care to admit.

 

[King Elvis]

You just neatly summed the conservative wing of the Parliamentary Liberal Party. Tone, and Cory are far closer to these campaigners in ideology than either would care to admit.

My thoughts on people like Bernadi aren't a secret - but I think that's a massive stretch. Abbott and his sister appear to have a very strong relationship; I doubt that would be the case if what you say above is correct. Bernadi is a disgrace, but I don't think you can compare his dislike of certain segments of the community to those who have violent hatred towards them.

On top of that, people like Bernadi are outliers - most people think he's a ****wit, he isn't held up as an example of a man to be admired and emulated.

 

[Gough]

Right wing nuffies have plenty in common with these guys, except they wrap themselves in their faith in Parliament, and claim to be doing it for freedom.

 

[Gough]

If Kevin Andrews was Syrian, he'd be beheading infidels in the name of Allah.

 

[Dan Moody]

My thoughts on people like Bernadi aren't a secret - but I think that's a massive stretch. Abbott and his sister appear to have a very strong relationship; I doubt that would be the case if what you say above is correct. Bernadi is a disgrace, but I don't think you can compare his dislike of certain segments of the community to those who have violent hatred towards them.

On top of that, people like Bernadi are outliers - most people think he's a *******, he isn't held up as an example of a man to be admired and emulated.

Agree, Bernardi has no relevant place in Politics, or society for that matter. His thought process could be deemed similar to fundamentalists, with the exception of the bombings, beheadings, violence and treatment of women etc.
His thoughts on gays are particularly disgraceful

 

[Dan Moody]

Right wing nuffies have plenty in common with these guys, except they wrap themselves in their faith in Parliament, and claim to be doing it for freedom.

I think we both know there's a huge difference

 

[Gough]

War in Iraq was quite simply state sponsored terrorism on a far grander scale than anything seen before, or since.

 

[Brick Loosener]

War in Iraq was quite simply state sponsored terrorism on a far grander scale than anything seen before, or since.

Reading your posts is like watching a mental patient smear his own shit on the walls.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Now this, this, gave me the biggest belly laugh I've had in ages.
.

You obviously don't get out much.

Reading your posts is like watching a mental patient smear his own shit on the walls.

Of which you've clearly had plenty of experience doing, poopy-hands.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are.....

That is certainly the view that Bush & the Western press would have us believe.

Any decent human being is angry & appalled at what's happened here....It's yet another human tragedy in a long sequence, stretching back to the Iraq invasion.....And with the continued U.S presence & destruction of Muslim countries, don't expect it to end anytime soon.

 

[Nothing]

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are....

Irish.

Or Basque.

Or Tamils.

and on throughout history.

 

[Hawkforce]

The people IS recruit are poor and uneducated, the solution has to start from there.

This lazy false cliché has persisted since the very well educated and comfortably middle-class 9/11 terrorists first killed loads of people for fun and virgins.

Just as the London 7/7 Bombers were well educated, comfortably supported by the UK Welfare state and had every chance to do whatever they wanted.

IS hate the poor and uneducated - they're a burden to be put on the front line as cannon fodder.

But IS are very good at killing the poor and uneducated. They're experts at that shit.

The solution starts with telling everyone, of any class or education, that ISIS murder Muslims. They kill more Muslims than any "crusader" could dream to. They exist to kill Muslims who don't agree with them and when they encounter soft targets like the Yazidis - they kill all the men and enslave all the women. Then rape them.

And all of this is done by educated, trained, middle-class fighters - with a smattering of educated untrained middle class foreign jihadis who are the people who can afford to get to the Caliphate.



Don't ever EVER lazily comment that IS recruit from the poor and uneducated. It's the middle class jihadis that do al the damage

 

[Hawkforce]

War in Iraq was quite simply state sponsored terrorism on a far grander scale than anything seen before, or since.

..It's yet another human tragedy in a long sequence, stretching back to the Iraq invasion.....And with the continued U.S presence & destruction of Muslim countries, don't expect it to end anytime soon.

Is it any wonder that Islamist jihadis find such rich pickings amongst Muslim communities when they're constantly told by "right on" people of impeccable moral stature that the Iraq war which spent years, billions, and many lives - and produced a Constitution and several elections with very high turnout - is reduced to some twat on Bigfooty calling it "State sponsored terrorism ON A FAR GRANDER SCALE THAN EVER SEEN BEFORE OR SINCE".

I mean, Gough's not referring to Saddam's State sponsored terrorism which saw tens of thousands "disappeared"; entire communities uprooted; or entire towns killed by nerve gas. Or even the money he paid to the families of suicide bombers in Israel.

No, Gough's saying the war to remove Saddam Hussein was "state sponsored terrorism on a far grander scale than anything seen before, or since".

So Gough believes that the Sunni Arab elite counter-revolution in which they slaughtered Shia Women and children with impunity - was entirely justified. That Saddam should be free to gas as many Kurds as he likes.

Gough apparently likes Muslims of all stripes to be arbitrarily slaughtered - he's one of those people who never bother to ask Shia Iraqis if "it was all worth it".


The elephant in the room, of course, is that Bush and Petraeus sorted the security in Iraq.

But then Obama did what the Gough's kept calling for. He pulled US troops out. And ISIS filled the vacuum.

But no... that's not on Goughy...

 

[Procrastinator35]

Is it any wonder that Islamist jihadis find such rich pickings amongst Muslim communities when they're constantly told by "right on" people of impeccable moral stature that the Iraq war which spent years, billions, and many lives - and produced a Constitution and several elections with very high turnout - is reduced to some twat on Bigfooty calling it "State sponsored terrorism ON A FAR GRANDER SCALE THAN EVER SEEN BEFORE OR SINCE".

I mean, Gough's not referring to Saddam's State sponsored terrorism which saw tens of thousands "disappeared"; entire communities uprooted; or entire towns killed by nerve gas. Or even the money he paid to the families of suicide bombers in Israel.

No, Gough's saying the war to remove Saddam Hussein was "state sponsored terrorism on a far grander scale than anything seen before, or since".

So Gough believes that the Sunni Arab elite counter-revolution in which they slaughtered Shia Women and children with impunity - was entirely justified. That Saddam should be free to gas as many Kurds as he likes.

Gough apparently likes Muslims of all stripes to be arbitrarily slaughtered - he's one of those people who never bother to ask Shia Iraqis if "it was all worth it".

The elephant in the room, of course, is that Bush and Petraeus sorted the security in Iraq.

But then Obama did what the Gough's kept calling for. He pulled US troops out. And ISIS filled the vacuum.

But no... that's not on Goughy...

No matter which way you try to justify it, the U.S invasion of Iraq was prefaced upon a lie.....And attempting to force Western democracy down Muslim's throats, as the only justification, is every bit as ignorant & repugnant.

Yes, Saddam was evil....But the U.S. actions have been far worse for that country, the region in general & world peace & security overall.

It is Muslim oil, strategic land & resources the U.S covets. So Islam is made out as the enemy....Might as well blame the effect for the cause with your logic.

 

[Saintt]

No matter which way you try to justify it, the U.S invasion of Iraq was prefaced upon a lie.....And attempting to force Western democracy down Muslim's throats, as the only justification, is every bit as ignorant & repugnant.

Yes, Saddam was evil....But the U.S. actions have been far worse for that country, the region in general & world peace & security overall.

It is Muslim oil, strategic land & resources the U.S covets. So Islam is made out as the enemy....Might as well blame the effect for the cause with your logic.

Bush was the one calling Islam a religion of peace, hardly making it out to be the enemy.