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Analysis Umpires

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Stamos said:
100%

When they went to crack down on holding the ball, they cracked down on the wrong ones.
It's the incorrect disposal/dropping the ball which is the blight on the game, not the ones where the ball is locked in (which are easily resolved with a quick ball-up).

Instead we've got the ridiculous situation where Ryan can drop the ball for a goal, and Samo gets pinged because he didn't go through the charade of making a 'genuine attempt' in an impossible situation.
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Showing my age here, but in the 70's and 80's as a senior umpire in Tasmania, we were consistently told to protect the ball player and if the ball spilled in the tackle it was "play on". If a player made an attempt to handball or kick, it was "play on". Now it is a game for dwellers and so unattractive to watch.
 
BeijingBlue said:
Showing my age here, but in the 70's and 80's as a senior umpire in Tasmania, we were consistently told to protect the ball player and if the ball spilled in the tackle it was "play on". If a player made an attempt to handball or kick, it was "play on". Now it is a game for dwellers and so unattractive to watch.
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Playing as a kid in the 80s and 90s, both real games and school yard, 'held to him' was a ball up, 'dropping the ball' was a free kick.

I agree in protecting the ball player, but it should be incumbent upon the player with possession to dispose of it correctly.
"Attempt" should count for nothing, unless the ball is held in.
If the ball is knocked out by the tackler as they tackle, that is one thing, but 'spilled out' or 'made an attempt' should be a free kick if the ball is disposed of incorrectly.

The number 1 fundamental of our game is that the ball must be kicked or handballed. I think the AFL needs to go back to the fundamentals when considering rule changes, or changes in interpretation.
 
BluStreak said:
The AFL has to bring the rules back to basics and remove the grey areas, i believe this would minimise the inconsistency that fans complain about.
The umpires need to have a set of codified rules at the start of every season that are not changed mid week all the time.
If changes are to occur they happen at the start or end of the season and only if there is an absolute glaring anomaly during the season.

I for one would also like to see a statement each week from the club saying that they have reviewed (with the umpires) the game,(football managers role) so that as a fan i know that the club has addressed that aspect of the performance.
Umpires should acknowledge their mistakes as that shows they are human and shows humility and will lead to improved respect from most fans. This is not about humiliation of umpires.
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Hahahaha, stop being so logical and reasonable BluStreak.

A completely ridiculous statement given we are talking about the AFL. Everything has to be swept under the rug, murky to the public and stakeholders and outcomes need to be able to be publicly manipulated at all times.

Love the Drake said:
Can anyone confirm that the Carlton football club made an official complaint about the umpiring against WCE’s?

I’d be extremely disappointed if we merely ‘sought clear’ rather than go hard and officially complain.
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Honestly, it would be the first time I've felt strongly enough to inquire with the club about something like that. Does anyone have any information on how we would get in contact with the club about this? I think a lot of fans feel strongly about this and unless we do something, probably nothing will be done.
 

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BluStreak said:
Umpires should acknowledge their mistakes as that shows they are human and shows humility and will lead to improved respect from most fans. This is not about humiliation of umpires.
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The issue isn't that they don't own up to mistakes. It's that the AFL refuse to come down on either the umpire's side - "we back the umpires 100%, and we will issue fines for bringing the game into disrepute against people like Clarko for casting doubt onto the ability of our umpires to adjudicate the game - or on the side of the fans/coaches - "You're not wrong, the umpires have been making key mistakes recently, let's clean it up!"

This fence-sitting is making a shit sandwich even worse. The umpires are a free hit for people like Clarko, because the AFL's unwilling to take him on; the tail wagging the dog is never a good thing. If something like individual decisions are questioned, you'll generally have someone like Steven Hocking coming out and backing the decision publicly, but it's kept to print and isn't really a defense of the umpires as a sheepish for the sake of appearances saying the right thing.

Umps are getting kicked from pillar to post, mainly for a change in interpretations that the fans didn't want imposed from above them. On one hand, the standard's getting worse; on the other, it isn't their fault that the AFL actively broke the rules mid season.

It's getting ugly; not just the game, but the kind of vehemence online around the issue. You personally might say that this is not about the humiliation of umpires, but there are plenty who are more than happy to do so.
 
Stamos said:
Playing as a kid in the 80s and 90s, both real games and school yard, 'held to him' was a ball up, 'dropping the ball' was a free kick.

I agree in protecting the ball player, but it should be incumbent upon the player with possession to dispose of it correctly.
"Attempt" should count for nothing, unless the ball is held in.
If the ball is knocked out by the tackler as they tackle, that is one thing, but 'spilled out' or 'made an attempt' should be a free kick if the ball is disposed of incorrectly.

The number 1 fundamental of our game is that the ball must be kicked or handballed. I think the AFL needs to go back to the fundamentals when considering rule changes, or changes in interpretation.
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100% this. I have never agreed with you more.

There should be 3 ways a ball can leave your possession validly in a game of football. 1) the ball touches your foot, called a kick. 2) With one hand holding the ball (element a) and the other hand moving to strike the ball (element b) that determines the direction the ball is travelling (element c); ie, a handpass. 3) a tackler's hand physically connects with the ball as part of a tackle, knocking it free.

All else is incorrect disposal.
 
Gethelred said:
The issue isn't that they don't own up to mistakes. It's that the AFL refuse to come down on either the umpire's side - "we back the umpires 100%, and we will issue fines for bringing the game into disrepute against people like Clarko for casting doubt onto the ability of our umpires to adjudicate the game - or on the side of the fans/coaches - "You're not wrong, the umpires have been making key mistakes recently, let's clean it up!"

This fence-sitting is making a sh*t sandwich even worse. The umpires are a free hit for people like Clarko, because the AFL's unwilling to take him on; the tail wagging the dog is never a good thing. If something like individual decisions are questioned, you'll generally have someone like Steven Hocking coming out and backing the decision publicly, but it's kept to print and isn't really a defense of the umpires as a sheepish for the sake of appearances saying the right thing.

Umps are getting kicked from pillar to post, mainly for a change in interpretations that the fans didn't want imposed from above them. On one hand, the standard's getting worse; on the other, it isn't their fault that the AFL actively broke the rules mid season.

It's getting ugly; not just the game, but the kind of vehemence online around the issue. You personally might say that this is not about the humiliation of umpires, but there are plenty who are more than happy to do so.
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Agree with most of this mate, except for the part about the umpires having no culpability in what mistakes are being made on the field. Too many people are letting them off the hook because of the changing interpretations. Sure, the AFL hierarchy aren't making it easy on them and umpiring the game is bloody hard - but they are categorically making shocking decisions far too often and umpiring the game in an unbalanced manner (for whatever reason).

Not trying to promote myself or anything, but I did an analysis of the contentious decisions in response to a WCE supporter here. Far more at play here to let the actual umps themselves off the hook.
 
Stamos said:
Playing as a kid in the 80s and 90s, both real games and school yard, 'held to him' was a ball up, 'dropping the ball' was a free kick.

I agree in protecting the ball player, but it should be incumbent upon the player with possession to dispose of it correctly.
"Attempt" should count for nothing, unless the ball is held in.
If the ball is knocked out by the tackler as they tackle, that is one thing, but 'spilled out' or 'made an attempt' should be a free kick if the ball is disposed of incorrectly.

The number 1 fundamental of our game is that the ball must be kicked or handballed. I think the AFL needs to go back to the fundamentals when considering rule changes, or changes in interpretation.
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The issue back in the day is you could have had prior opportunity but if the ball was held to you in a perfect tackle it wasn't a free. So the change on that front was good.

The other side of it is if you pick it up and get tackled straight away while disposing of the ball it is a disincentive to win the ball and we saw immediately after the Clarko outburst players holding back which is not what we want. I think you need the attempt to dispose of the ball with prior opportunity I just think that you should get a little more leniency with a kick that a handball. Players get tackled and just drop it without making an attempt all the time knowing they have numbers in support.

They also used to be stricter on the time you had to dispose of the ball. The old 360 spin rule of thumb has gone out the window

The other that was illegal disposal was directly passing the ball to a team mate. Team mates couldn't just grab the ball out of your hands like often happens when tackled.
 
TheKITC said:
Agree with most of this mate, except for the part about the umpires having no culpability in what mistakes are being made on the field. Too many people are letting them off the hook because of the changing interpretations. Sure, the AFL hierarchy aren't making it easy on them and umpiring the game is bloody hard - but they are categorically making shocking decisions far too often and umpiring the game in an unbalanced manner (for whatever reason).

Not trying to promote myself or anything, but I did an analysis of the contentious decisions in response to a WCE supporter here. Far more at play here to let the actual umps themselves off the hook.
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I'm not seeing anyone let them off the hook. In this sport, never have so many held individual umps and umpiring in such contempt.

There's also the fact that while there's been plenty written concerning player hubs, not a lot has been considered about the semiprofessional umpires leaving home and occupation during a time of deep uncertainty. It's a stacked deck at the moment, and they're pariahs at a time when everyone needs a people to be kind.

WC are flag contenders. They won a single game against the worst side in the comp whilst in their hub. Is there a chance that some umpires are suffering from such a form lapse for a similar reason?

And, before someone jumps down my throat, this is not intended to excuse the standard of umpiring, merely to provide context for it.
 
OldBlueFan said:
So, after watching last night's Syd v GWS game (which just served to confirm suspicions from earlier games) our wonderful competion overlords have introduced yet another incosistency-inviting, interpretation-based approach to policing what used to be a hard and fast rule.

Now apparently, illegal disposal is not just a matter of "after taking possession, you must dispose of the ball either by a handpass or a kick". Were a handpass is deemed to be holding the ball in one hand and punching it clear with the other, as a closed fist. And a kick is making connection with the ball anywhere below the knee.

Now, if a player is being tackled, they just need to be deemed to have "made an attempt" to do one of the things listed above. In last night's game, there were several calls of "he tried, play on" when players completely failed to make connection with the ball either by hand or foot.

Seriously, WTF is this? Why take something that is completely black and white (determine if the player disposed of the ball correctly) and turn it into a "judgement call" (I think he tried to dispose of it legally)?

You can already see how this will play out with the clever (manipulative?) players and teams ... now they will just start working out how to make sure the "accidental" spill goes towards one of their teammates and not their opponents when they are caught in a good tackle. There was an example last night (and I'm not saying this one was deliberate) where the ball was literally thrown 10 feet clear of the pack because the player was being slung when the ball happened to come out. No contact with a fist or a foot, just a complete throw off the hand that was holding the ball.

This obsession with "keeping the ball moving" has made the stewards of what was once the greatest spectator sport in the world completely bats**t f*****g crazy!!! The game is truly becoming unwatchable now ...
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And theres not a thing we can do other than people need to stop watching neutral games ive watched very few non Carlton games for the past couple of years now .
The game is a shambles given the odd good game .
Ruined by constant rule changes and interpretations and coach tactics .
If all supporters did this TV ratings would take a massive hit .
Then maybe the AFL and coaches may i say may just rethink what they are doing to this once great game .
 
Gethelred said:
I'm not seeing anyone let them off the hook. In this sport, never have so many held individual umps and umpiring in such contempt.

There's also the fact that while there's been plenty written concerning player hubs, not a lot has been considered about the semiprofessional umpires leaving home and occupation during a time of deep uncertainty. It's a stacked deck at the moment, and they're pariahs at a time when everyone needs a people to be kind.

WC are flag contenders. They won a single game against the worst side in the comp whilst in their hub. Is there a chance that some umpires are suffering from such a form lapse for a similar reason?

And, before someone jumps down my throat, this is not intended to excuse the standard of umpiring, merely to provide context for it.
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Totally get what you are saying, but you are kind of letting them off the hook, especially with language like "it isn't their fault" and providing multiple excuses.

What you are saying comes from a good place (respect) and a lot of what you say is true or as you say, putting things in context - I'm just not willing to pass the buck fully because I think the standard of umpiring has been shocking and a lot of that has to be laid at the feet of the individuals performing the job, even with all things considered. I'm not out for blood or wanting to give them a kicking for no reason like some, but they honestly deserve a lot of (not all) of the criticism they are receiving IMO.
 
Love the Drake said:
Can anyone confirm that the Carlton football club made an official complaint about the umpiring against WCE’s?

I’d be extremely disappointed if we merely ‘sought clear’ rather than go hard and officially complain.
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Absolutely , its not going to change anything but it would imo give some of our fans a sense of pride in the club if the club was a bit more forceful on this occasion .
 
Just had a look who was umpiring tonight, Nathan Williamson is not.

He’s doing the West Coast Hawthorn game
 

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Rosscoe said:
it also suggests the umpire was at the wrong side of the contest to make an accurate decision.
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Well....he was at the right side of the contest to see 2 arms wrapped around Levi clearly, he’s like 4 metres away


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
Gethelred said:
I'm not seeing anyone let them off the hook. In this sport, never have so many held individual umps and umpiring in such contempt.

There's also the fact that while there's been plenty written concerning player hubs, not a lot has been considered about the semiprofessional umpires leaving home and occupation during a time of deep uncertainty. It's a stacked deck at the moment, and they're pariahs at a time when everyone needs a people to be kind.

WC are flag contenders. They won a single game against the worst side in the comp whilst in their hub. Is there a chance that some umpires are suffering from such a form lapse for a similar reason?

And, before someone jumps down my throat, this is not intended to excuse the standard of umpiring, merely to provide context for it.
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The contempt for the umpiring role is significant, Geth.

I think the intensified pressure relative to past eras is founded in several areas. There has never bern more media scrutiny and access to technology to analyse players, umpires and actions than ever before. That is a given.

There is also significant investment from corporate, community and government investment which conflates to impress upon the AFL to present a marketable product. This has lead to indivuduals and commitees tinkering regularly to improve the spectacle.

In addition, the community is more invested as more people become members of a club and feel a greater pressure to see their side succeed. We see every minute if every game, loads of training footage and scrutinise every aspect of club and cultural growth.

What does this means for umpiring and umpires? They are tasked with the single power to adjudicate every minute of a billion dollar, emotional experience for a larger more invested community than ever before. They make hundreds of decisions in their time on ground AND SOME WILL BE WRONG. The happen at important times and outside the heat of the contest. I have said before, it is ok to highlight and discuss them and the decisions they make. Just don't make it personal and insulting towards the individuals.
 

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