Review vs Adelaide Crows

[stefoid]

Hi all. Hope you don't mind me popping in. Crows fan but Dogs have always been my second team - only supported Crows when I came to Australia as they were local so never formed a real bond to a club. Really like the Dogs hence why I pop in so much. Great win today, much deserved. Just thought I'd give a little (which is nearly certain to become an essay) writeup on what I've noticed this year.

We have more half backs available than we have had for a while - we will know more about them by the end of the year, but guys who will get a run through there also include Biggs and Prudden. Whether Webb can continue his form remains to be seen but he is certainly setting the bar.

I think Dogs supporters have a more optimistic view of Roughead than you do. He had a bung shoulder last year. And I reckon zone defence suits him better. Obviously another quality key defender would be fantastic, because Roughy could go forward and/or into the ruck, but we are happy with his progress.

 

[dogwatch]

Excellent post Skippos and you're always welcome here.
I agree with nearly all of that - it echoed much of my own thinking and some of what I was going to write.

At this stage I disagree with you on Roughead and Talia though. I might well be biased but IMO they are already producing immeasurably more than they did (for various reasons) in 2014. Right now Talia is the KPD around which our smaller defenders revolve. He anticipates extremely well and is surprisingly strong against older, more experienced players. I think he has more improvement in him too, as he's only played 20 games. Roughead has a mature head for a fairly young player and will also get better. I do think he has weaknesses but as you say, Bev has been very astute in playing a game style that stops our weaknesses being badly exploited.

 

[JTCWBFC]

love that
edit: needs more Clay though

Average age in the photo is like 20, crazy stuff.

 

[Testekill]

What makes them so sure it was an accident?

It's sterile and he likes the taste.

 

[maddog37]

Excellent post Skippos and you're always welcome here.
I agree with nearly all of that - it echoed much of my own thinking and some of what I was going to write.

At this stage I disagree with you on Roughead and Talia though. I might well be biased but IMO they are already producing immeasurably more than they did (for various reasons) in 2014. Right now Talia is the KPD around which our smaller defenders revolve. He anticipates extremely well and is surprisingly strong against older, more experienced players. I think he has more improvement in him too, as he's only played 20 games. Roughead has a mature head for a fairly young player and will also get better. I do think he has weaknesses but as you say, Bev has been very astute in playing a game style that stops our weaknesses being badly exploited.

We also have Zaine Cordy to factor in.

 

[womble54]

Hi all. Hope you don't mind me popping in. Crows fan but Dogs have always been my second team - only supported Crows when I came to Australia as they were local so never formed a real bond to a club. Really like the Dogs hence why I pop in so much. Great win today, much deserved. Just thought I'd give a little (which is nearly certain to become an essay) writeup on what I've noticed this year.

You guys are GWS's main rival to a dynasty in my eyes. The building blocks are there. The style of game and team based defense is able to cover some defensive short comings. An elite KPD would be a super recruit, as would a rebounding HB and a linebreaking & electric outside mid. Bontempelli is going to be the best player in the league; that's a given. He or Fyfe. His cleanliness and agility at ground level is obscene for a teenager as is his ability to spread and convert disputed ball into consolidated ball. By foot he's better than most inside mids, he reads the play super well and his marking is just elite. And that's for a kid. He's going to carry you to flags. MacRae is still improving but if he's to become the A grade ball user you need him to he needs to stop being so conservative by foot - none of this continual backwards chipping. Way too much elevation on many of his kicks too. Has the body and frame to be excellent inside and if he develops that he'll be unstoppable. Likewise needs some forward presence at his size and with his skill set. He's super important to where the club ends up as the genuine outside midfielder; players like him are the cream on top that turn top 4 sides into flag winners. Inside mids get you to finals. Outside mids give you the edge in them. Stringer too is going to be a superstar. We all knew he would be - but I'm now slowly converting to the belief that he should remain forward - he's the perfect foil to Boyd with his leading and ground level game and if complimented by a 3rd tall high half forward type it'd be a great setup. What Grant should be, but isn't, really. James Stewart of GWS should be lookinf for greater opportunity and would be a great list fit. With Bonts being elite and Libba coming back as well as Jong looking like a great bet and with Smith and Wallis to potentially impact, is there really a need for Stringer to move there? He'd be an explosive big bodied inside mid. But you're already sorted there and he's developing far better than expected forward.

Tom Boyd really is a massive gain. Just offers far more than any of the other blokes tried in that role. When not marking he's still having an influence. He's going to be some player. Really like the look of Bailey Dale and think he could add a new dimension to the half forwards and free up Dahl - who just keeps improving, even more. Jarrad Grant is a waste of talent. So much to like about him but just never pulls it together. He's worth persisting with but ideally loses his spot eventually. Structurally he's more important than he looks atm, IMO. JJ as a running back keeps improving too - having him on one flank with his attack is a massive get. Compliment him with an elite kick on the other flank and a lockdown small (Rourke Smith is your guy, here) and that defense looks so good. Could Webb be that kicker? I'm not sure; he's more of a midfielder for mine and while he's a good kick and certainly looks at home I don't think he's the long term answer.

Lin Jong is going to be some player. Started the game late and his year to year growth is incredible. Defensively there are shortcomings but experience fixes that with time. He's got the height and size to bullock his way on the inside and his composure and disposal under pressure is improving so much. Offers a marking threat with his height/leap which should see him hurt oppositions in future when dragging his man forward. Works so hard too. I reckon he's the missing link. I really think he's going to develop into an A grade *inside* midfielder. His size and athelticism/explosiveness is what's been missing from that midfield I reckon. I'm sure you're all seeing it too with him, but he's something special. Noticed him a few years ago and thought there's a little to work with but late last year in the VFL he was just super impressive.

Cordy's worth persisting with. He's never going to be a world beater but there's enough there to like. His previous mediocrity can be explained, IMO. Rucking is a bit of an art form. There's so much feel and touch involved; you've got to work your way in. Playing in a dual ruck setup means regular switches rendering a player unable to really work their way into the role. Cordy's almost always been playing 20-50% of games in the ruck; it's not enough to really get into the game so of course he's gonna look a little rubbish. Blokes like Grundy and Gawn always struggle in dual ruck setups but when left alone all of a sudden they're top notch. I prefer Campbell as a player but Cordy has use - he's got excellent reflexes and is cleaner and more skilled. I wouldn't persist with him long term but he's handy depth. I'd be playing Campbell.

Blokes like Honeychurch, Hrovat and Hunter need to really impose themselves. With the list you're building there's limited space for players of their type and I reckon if they continue to be 15-30 players on the list they'll be replaced. They need to take the next step up within a year or two for mine. I think two of them will, but right now at their size and role there isn't space to carry mediocrity. With the rising inside mids at the club it's important Clay Smith makes a spot his own too or else he'll be overtaken. The key defensive stocks need some work. Jordan Roughead just isn't good enough, sorry lads, and Talia has too many defensive short comings. Ideally you gain a #1 defender and fast. That's the main aim, IMO. Other than that I really rate the footy Bevo has you playing. Covers the flaws in the 22 and improves upon the strengths. Chuck some line breakers in there and it'd run rampant regularly.

Good luck lads, hope you keep this form up. Happy to discuss anything I've said here; I enjoy it - and really like your club.

Always welcome Skippos. Agree with much of your post but the bits I would happily debate:

1. Depth is so important to a flag tilt. We are probably a couple of years away from a crack at the flag although I'll wait until we see how we match up against Sydney and Freo before I concede the year. With this group and coach currently anything feels possible. I can't see why you we would move on any of Hunter/Hrovat/Honeychurch if they are all top 15-30 ish players on our list. All have the talent to get game time and all have the potential to be role players in winning finals teams. I say hoard them unless there was a trade opportunity to fill one of the gaps we still have with solid talent.

2. Talia and Roughead. I'm not being supporter-blind (I don't think) in saying both continue to develop into massive assets down back. Talia isn't like his brother in being a 1:1 winning forward. Give him licence in a zone defence to move and intercept as Bev has been doing and I have in a most teams best back 6's/22's every week. Roughy needs to be playing on the opposition ruckman down there so there is a definite need for a CHB. Western Bulldogs would greatly welcome Jake Carlisle in season 2016....

3. Biggest need area in my opinion is a CHF. Agree re James Steward (good fit) and Henderson would be a perfect option if Carlton decide to get hot and heavy in the trade period.

4. No way our list goes "past" Clay Smith. Bet you a penny if the guy stays fit by round 20 you will change your mind. He is a raging bull, most of which we've seen in the VFL in the main, but we know it translates to AFL level. He's not just a muscled deadhead to throw into the inside meat grinder either. Sweet sweet skills (ok very bad ball drop and I'm overstating his kicking) but he has terrific footy nouse, awareness and particularly goal sense. You look at him and say inside mid but some of his best footy is on the HFF. Great player, one of my favs and could be a difference maker moving forward.

Totally agree on the rest!

Cheers

 

[Pannalstaroz]

Dear God. A better day I can't remember - well since Richmond

I'll write something bigger later, but finding a negative will be nigh on impossible.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Not so much what he did as what he didn't do. Seemed to have a very quiet game when most of everyone else was all over the ball - although maybe you and I were just sharing the same wing!

Grant laid 5 tackles today and has laid 14 across the past 3 games. Sure he does some frustrating stuff at times, but I am looking at the good stuff and not the bad for now.

He might be flying close to the wind each week in terms of selection in our 22, but right now he is still in the mix. When the likes of Dale and McLean are coming for his spot on a wing, he might be in trouble though.

 

[VitalDread]

Eddie Betts kicked 4 goals in garage time, that defensive workrate was amazing tonight

 

[VitalDread]

 

[Scary_Foot_9]

Phil Walsh is certainly a strange duck. He self stimulates his nipples, then the post match presser where after his team get demolished he looks positively chipper.

 

[Martyn_30_]

Did the other recruiters stuff up by not taking Webb? Or has he just improved a lot? Its rare that you see players look as composed and use the ball so well in there second game unless they've really got something.

I think M Boyd is in career best form his the move to the backline has been seemless and would be a lock in the all australian team at the moment.

Cordy is definitely a better ruckman than forward but tonight he showed nothing to suggest he will make it, Jacobs smashed him in the ruck which was to be expected but he also outplayed him around the ground. The one area Adelaide looked dangerous were some of the easy centre clearances they got which would have been much less likely with Minson in the team.

 

[JTCWBFC]

Phil Walsh is certainly a strange duck. He self stimulates his nipples, then the post match presser where after his team get demolished he looks positively chipper.

I agree. I think it will be fine during the Honeymoon period (the weird presser attitude not the self stimulation) but if Adelaide were to not come on as expected this could quickly piss off fans.

 

[JTCWBFC]

Did the other recruiters stuff up by not taking Webb? Or has he just improved a lot? Its rare that you see players look as composed and use the ball so well in there second game unless they've really got something.

I think M Boyd is in career best form his the move to the backline has been seemless and would be a lock in the all australian team at the moment.

Cordy is definitely a better ruckman than forward but tonight he showed nothing to suggest he will make it, Jacobs smashed him in the ruck which was to be expected but he also outplayed him around the ground. The one area Adelaide looked dangerous were some of the easy centre clearances they got which would have been much less likely with Minson in the team.

So where does tonight leave us with the ruck situation?

Minson was average by reports, I like what Cordy gave us around the ground but no hiding he got spanked in the hitouts.

I don't think Campbell would have the tank to ruck as much as Cordy did tonight. Really like Roughead relieving in there to allow Toyd to stay forward and keep structure.

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

Did the other recruiters stuff up by not taking Webb? Or has he just improved a lot? Its rare that you see players look as composed and use the ball so well in there second game unless they've really got something.

I think M Boyd is in career best form his the move to the backline has been seemless and would be a lock in the all australian team at the moment.

Cordy is definitely a better ruckman than forward but tonight he showed nothing to suggest he will make it, Jacobs smashed him in the ruck which was to be expected but he also outplayed him around the ground. The one area Adelaide looked dangerous were some of the easy centre clearances they got which would have been much less likely with Minson in the team.

Disagree that Jacobs beat Ayce around the ground. Ayce was involved in a lot of link play and got around the ground a lot more. Also note that Jacobs was off the last 15 minutes and Ayce stayed on. Agree we need to do better in the centre though, Minson has not much time left and Campbell not ready yet, surely we can entice a Jarrod Witts or Jarrod Redden.

 

[Zeno The Great]

Still almost slapping myself in the face to come back to earth.

What an amazing performance, the run off half back and through the middle was absolutely nuts, we looked so dangerous everytime we went forward.

There were a number of posters here at the start of the year who questioned Moyd moving to half back, have we ever seen him in better form? Simply stunning the way he is playing, credit to both him and Bevo.

If there is a more improved player in the league than Lin Jong i'll bare my ass in Bourke St. Amazing the transition he has made, he is so powerful breaking the lines.

I'm still waiting for the honeymoon to be over every week, but it keeps rolling on. Been a long time since i have seen us destroy a good team like we did today, they had no excuses, we were just simply brilliant. Proud to be a supporter of this club.

 

[VitalDread]

 

[dogwatch]

Phil Walsh is certainly a strange duck. He self stimulates his nipples, then the post match presser where after his team get demolished he looks positively chipper.

I'd be pretty happy too if I knew I had the second best side in the comp.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

So where does tonight leave us with the ruck situation?

Minson was average by reports, I like what Cordy gave us around the ground but no hiding he got spanked in the hitouts.

I don't think Campbell would have the tank to ruck as much as Cordy did tonight. Really like Roughead relieving in there to allow Toyd to stay forward and keep structure.

I have no idea what happens next with our rucks.

I thought Roughead was far more effective than Jenkins as the second rucks today. I'd like to see Hamling in the team and how that might free up Roughead to play backup ruck more often.

 

[JTCWBFC]

Crows supporters saying the commentators were overtly bias towards us.

Maybe I'm looking at it with my dogs hat on, but I seem to remember them talking about the Crows getting back into the game etc on a number of occasions?

 

[VitalDread]

funny to think we are doing this type of pressure without the biggest name in our side.
Libba
oh boy R.I.P league when he returns

 

[JTCWBFC]

I have no idea what happens next with our rucks.

I thought Roughead was far more effective than Jenkins as the second rucks today. I'd like to see Hamling in the team and how that might free up Roughead to play backup ruck more often.

I think this worked well and we will see it more often now. Roughead usually plays on the 2nd tall who, in most teams, is the relief ruck so there is no reason why he can't give a chop out.

I'd give Ayce the job again next week.

 

[Skippos]

We have more half backs available than we have had for a while - we will know more about them by the end of the year, but guys who will get a run through there also include Biggs and Prudden. Whether Webb can continue his form remains to be seen but he is certainly setting the bar.

I think Dogs supporters have a more optimistic view of Roughead than you do. He had a bung shoulder last year. And I reckon zone defence suits him better. Obviously another quality key defender would be fantastic, because Roughy could go forward and/or into the ruck, but we are happy with his progress.

Quantity doesn't equal quality though. The amount of half backs isn't the issue; the skill of them is. I hope Biggs becomes the man but I'm cynical.

I certainly have a higher opinion of Talia than I do Roughead - I'd prefer Fletcher Roberts to Roughead. One on one Talia's exposed but by having one or two bigger and more skilled KPDs I think he could thrive - agreed. Allow him to zone and intercept and rebound as he does best. But Roughead isn't that bloke, I don't think. Aware he's had shoulder issues but I think many #1 forwards expose him 1 on 1 and with his turning circle, he's easily beaten at ground level. I used to be hot on him but he hasn't progressed at the rate most ruckmen/tall fwds cum key backs do.

Excellent post Skippos and you're always welcome here.
I agree with nearly all of that - it echoed much of my own thinking and some of what I was going to write.

At this stage I disagree with you on Roughead and Talia though. I might well be biased but IMO they are already producing immeasurably more than they did (for various reasons) in 2014. Right now Talia is the KPD around which our smaller defenders revolve. He anticipates extremely well and is surprisingly strong against older, more experienced players. I think he has more improvement in him too, as he's only played 20 games. Roughead has a mature head for a fairly young player and will also get better. I do think he has weaknesses but as you say, Bev has been very astute in playing a game style that stops our weaknesses being badly exploited.

Agree Talia's worth persisting with but long term he'll cost games until he checks better. Takes a lot of skill to be accountable yet loose.

Always welcome Skippos. Agree with much of your post but the bits I would happily debate:

1. Depth is so important to a flag tilt. We are probably a couple of years away from a crack at the flag although I'll wait until we see how we match up against Sydney and Freo before I concede the year. With this group and coach currently anything feels possible. I can't see why you we would move on any of Hunter/Hrovat/Honeychurch if they are all top 15-30 ish players on our list. All have the talent to get game time and all have the potential to be role players in winning finals teams. I say hoard them unless there was a trade opportunity to fill one of the gaps we still have with solid talent.

2. Talia and Roughead. I'm not being supporter-blind (I don't think) in saying both continue to develop into massive assets down back. Talia isn't like his brother in being a 1:1 winning forward. Give him licence in a zone defence to move and intercept as Bev has been doing and I have in a most teams best back 6's/22's every week. Roughy needs to be playing on the opposition ruckman down there so there is a definite need for a CHB. Western Bulldogs would greatly welcome Jake Carlisle in season 2016....

3. Biggest need area in my opinion is a CHF. Agree re James Steward (good fit) and Henderson would be a perfect option if Carlton decide to get hot and heavy in the trade period.

4. No way our list goes "past" Clay Smith. Bet you a penny if the guy stays fit by round 20 you will change your mind. He is a raging bull, most of which we've seen in the VFL in the main, but we know it translates to AFL level. He's not just a muscled deadhead to throw into the inside meat grinder either. Sweet sweet skills (ok very bad ball drop and I'm overstating his kicking) but he has terrific footy nouse, awareness and particularly goal sense. You look at him and say inside mid but some of his best footy is on the HFF. Great player, one of my favs and could be a difference maker moving forward.

Totally agree on the rest!

Cheers

Yeah I'm not suggesting they get punted but I am suggesting that they're not far away from being that depth. For their own sakes they'd want to make an impact is the point I'm making. I've covered Talia/Roughead above, but especially on Roughead I certainly disagree. If you brought in Henderson I'd consider playing him back; he's better there.

And with regards to Clay - I rate him. But small inside mids are becoming pretty rare with good reason these days. Hasn't done a whole lot bar game 1 and very injury prone and all of a sudden plays a position that you guys are pretty well stocked with. I rate him but at the end of the day you can't have too many real inside mids in the rotation and a fit Wallis and Libba complicate that a little - he certainly needs to step up for his own sake; something I think he could well do. I've always liked him.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

Dear God. A better day I can't remember - well since Richmond

I'll write something bigger later, but finding a negative will be nigh on impossible.
View attachment 128178

LOL, classy Bob, so good, he can carve up the opposition and smile at the camera while doing it...

 

[Some Idiot]

Excellent post Skippos and you're always welcome here.
I agree with nearly all of that - it echoed much of my own thinking and some of what I was going to write.

At this stage I disagree with you on Roughead and Talia though. I might well be biased but IMO they are already producing immeasurably more than they did (for various reasons) in 2014. Right now Talia is the KPD around which our smaller defenders revolve. He anticipates extremely well and is surprisingly strong against older, more experienced players. I think he has more improvement in him too, as he's only played 20 games. Roughead has a mature head for a fairly young player and will also get better. I do think he has weaknesses but as you say, Bev has been very astute in playing a game style that stops our weaknesses being badly exploited.

I have some doubts about Roughy as a defender actually. I think he's a genuinely good footballer and mature leader and does a good job back there but he'll never be A-grade. He's one I'd continue to be willing to give some ruck development to at times and maybe up forward too (even though he hasn't shown a lot there previously). No doubt he'll be a long term player regardless.