Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Millky95]

Yeah they’re just not safe to fly in Australian conditions. It was a shocking procurement decision to make when you have tried and tested Blackhawks that we’ve now gone back to.

Part of me agrees with you but there’s another part of me that says if their safety record isn’t great then why give them to Ukraine. I’m conflicted on it.

Worst case scenario give them to Ukraine as parts. Gotta do something. Maybe deliver the parts on new Bushmasters?

 

[Zidane98]

The Il-22 which was able to return to Anapa airfield. Ukraine claim they shot it down (with what? what reaches that far?). RF milbloggers say it was friendly fire.

View attachment 1887197

was there a report two of them were downed?

 

[Visions]

The Il-22 which was able to return to Anapa airfield. Ukraine claim they shot it down (with what? what reaches that far?). RF milbloggers say it was friendly fire.

View attachment 1887197

When you are so intent on portraying yourself as the superior nation, that you would rather claim that you are f****g idiots rather than the other side has some capability.

 

[Visions]

To be provided with a military uniform on arrival and on the frontlines within 2 months.

 

[Zidane98]

To be provided with a military uniform on arrival and on the frontlines within 2 months.

But Russia are apparently winning the war and have always wanted peace according to some....

 

[Crankyhawk]

But Russia are apparently winning the war and have always wanted peace according to some....

Actually if they took in palestinians it could be an advantage for Russia (arm them and send them into Ukraine as fresh meat while seeming to help a humanitarian crisis) - you'd have to start by granting Russian citizenship so then they are subject to the same conscription rules... (and making monitoring of what happened difficult)

 

[Aussie in exile]

I think being a true patriot of Australia involves questioning the choices of our government and allies, whatever the media or extremists like you guys in his thread think. So here is the bbc transcript of the leaked Nuland call. Sycophant.

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call - BBC News

A transcript of the alleged conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt discussing the crisis in Ukraine.

www.bbc.com

So you wont be joining the Russian foreign legion in Russia's illegal invasion of Russia?
That could be a wise move as they are there as cannon fodder the same at the Russian conscripts and prisoners released from the Russian Jails.
Never forget that this war is about Putin's ego. Its little mans syndrome.

 

[Zidane98]

That's perfectly understandable if it's the only option, but is it?

First, Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany agreed under both Minsk treaties that the Donetsk and Luhansk would remain part of Ukraine, but not be subject to the repressions on Russian language and culture like the rest of Ukraine was post-Maidan (repressions which BTW, if still in law, would by themselves prevent admission into the EU, which is very much FOR multi-lingual integration).

Abiding by either of those treaties is looking like it would have been a smart option for Ukraine at this point.

The next time territory was discussed was at the peace talks in March of '22.

By this stage Donestk and Luhansk were under Russia's protective umbrella (something the Russian citizenry had been screaming at Putin to happen for eight long and bloody years) and there was no option for them to remain part of Ukraine, but Russia was not looking to take any more territory, as they clearly stated in their offer of peace.

Again, it was Ukraine who decided to reject the offer, ostensibly because they wanted the Donbass and all of Crimea back as well and were encouraged by their Western allies to think they could achieve it.

Now here we are.

In yet another chapter of a ridiculously futile, centuries long battle to deprive Russia of its only warm water port (Crimea) and balkanise their territory into more manageable factions.

Crimea is existential for Russia and always will be. Sooner or later, the rest of the world will have to accept that and Ukraine should have long ago.

Crimea was intended to be an independent Oblast after the fall of the Soviet Union and that's what everyone agreed on - a fitting compromise between Russia's existentiial need for its port, and Ukraine being 'given' Crimea by Kruschev for reasons literally nobody I'm aware of can give solid, factual reason for - a mystery that died with him apparently (there are no shortage of competing theories, of course).

That compromise was broken when Ukraine invaded Crimea, removed its leader at gunpoint (any of this sounding familiar!) and absorbed it 'back' into Ukrainian territory - while leaving Russian naval assets alone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Crimea_(1992–1995)

I think even now, with a change of Ukrainian leadership and finally some good faith from the West, Putin would again state his conditions around Ukraine nor becoming a NATO armed military threat again (wherever NATO goes, their 'defensive' missile systems - which are just as capable of offensively firing nukes like the one in Poland 100km from the Russian border) and he would harp on those type of guarantees, but territorially, he'd sacrifice what he could gain for peace and a chance at conciliation with both Ukraine and the wider West.

We're probably well past that point being possible, but there's not a lot else realistic to hope for.





For Ukraine's sake, to fulfill their commitments, the West needed to either put itself on a war production footing from day one, or make a hell of a lot more effort to broker peace. Now Russia is eating everyone's lunch.




Check out my quoted Kogan ISW post above - in the real world - as opposed to the world of journalistic fantasy - the only aircraft that can penetrate Russia's defence systems is stealth aircraft. The much touted F-16's - just as one example - are a couple of generations below what Russia has (let alone what they're working on) and crucially, their air intake is from underneath.

Which means - like so many Western weapons involved in this conflict - that unles they operate under ideal conditions (we're talking a runway where it picks up not even a tiny pebble or it shreds the engine) it's pretty much useless.

And there are no Ukrainian pilots to fly them.

Slight oversights?

And while Russia has a massive population and economic advantage over Ukraine, Russia itself is dwarfed by Western advantages in these areas, so if the West had ever been serious about actually helping Ukraine win, they would have been out-producing Russia by now, wouldn't they?

Your lies about Russian language in Ukraine are ever so obvious here.

Russian language is freely spoken in Ukraine. It's an absolute lie to suggest Russian speakers are discriminated against. Zelensky is an ethnic Russian speaker himself.

Furthermore, Russian human rights abuse in Donbass is horrific and perpetuated by Russian soldiers / DPR rebels. Ukrainians & speaking Ukranian or even daring to wear Ukranian colours gets you thrown in prison.

Every accusation from Russia is generally a confession. They are the nation guilty of genocide they are the ones who abuse anyone who dare to speak Ukrainian in shock horror Ukraine.

This probably isn't what you are told at the internet research agency so I will give you some leeway.

 

[Visions]

Latest nomination for the Darwin award.

The phone came away unscathed. The muppet user not so much.

 

[EagleMan87]

Yep, the pattern is that they all involve Russians directly and they all involve Russia's immediate borders. The only other times the USSR or Russia have entered other countries for military purposes is by invitation of the direct leader (no supporting coups and colour revolutions). They're sticklers to the law like that and Putin is of course an exceptionally pedantic, lawyer by trade. Makes reading his speeches and writings full of endless legalese interminably boring most of the time!

The set US pattern seems to be to surround both Russia and China with as many missile toting hostile neighbours as they can coerce. All for the sake of peace, so they say.

Which pattern do you think impacts efforts towards global peace more negatively?

So, Russia invading Georgia in 2008 is better for global peace than sovereign nations joining NATO to protect themselves against Russia?

BTW, you might notice that the South Ossetia/Abkhazia situation that lead up to the Russo-Georgian War is quite similar to the Donbass/Luhansk one that lead to the Russo-Ukrainian War. Almost like they're out of the same playbook or something...

 

[Cap]

So, Russia invading Georgia in 2008 is better for global peace than sovereign nations joining NATO to protect themselves against Russia?

BTW, you might notice that the South Ossetia/Abkhazia situation that lead up to the Russo-Georgian War is quite similar to the Donbass/Luhansk one that lead to the Russo-Ukrainian War. Almost like they're out of the same playbook or something...

What about the Syrians .

Russia helping with the peace there?

 

[Zidane98]

What about the Syrians .

Russia helping with the peace there?

Apparently Russia is just a peaceful nation that just happens to be surrounded by invasions, special military operations & genocide perpetuated by Russia who are just defending themselves.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Latest nomination for the Darwin award.

The phone came away unscathed. The muppet user not so much.

Hahaha oops.

 

[wannabejack]

Honestly can't be arsed. Should be an exam based on all 3 threads before gaining access to take part. If you can avoid repeating the same disproven talking points, then there's klaxons and the gates open.

Some lie words/phrases include "coup", "civil war" and "language repression" but there's plenty more. But the details are well back within these threads.

Maybe there needs to be another thread called "Justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine".
Would save the repetition in this thread.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Honestly can't be arsed. Should be an exam based on all 3 threads before gaining access to take part. If you can avoid repeating the same disproven talking points, then there's klaxons and the gates open.

Some lie words/phrases include "coup", "civil war" and "language repression" but there's plenty more. But the details are well back within these threads.

Spot on. Getting sick of people popping off on how smart they are and all the research they do when it’s been covered ad nauseam. It’s boring as **** and very very annoying.

 

[Cap]

Maybe there needs to be another thread called "Justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine".
Would save the repetition in this thread.

We have a cooker problem on the Adelaide Board , it should just be an all encompassing cooker thread to get them all into the same spot

 

[GhostofJimJess]

But Russia are apparently winning the war and have always wanted peace according to some....

Yes Zids, for those who choose to look at a situation with rose coloured glasses, all of the red flags just look like flags.

 

[Zidane98]

Maybe there needs to be another thread called "Justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine".
Would save the repetition in this thread.

Otherwise known as the "Official vatnik & tankie" thread.

 

[Smeg Head]

Otherwise known as the "Official vatnik & tankie" thread.

Vatnik Warehouse! Flimsy justifications are just the beginning!

 

[Zidane98]

Honestly can't be arsed. Should be an exam based on all 3 threads before gaining access to take part. If you can avoid repeating the same disproven talking points, then there's klaxons and the gates open.

Some lie words/phrases include "coup", "civil war" and "language repression" but there's plenty more. But the details are well back within these threads.

Anyone trying to bring up Russian language discrimination, Ukraine is run by Nazis, Russia is trying to defend itself, Putin wants peace, coup etc really isn't posting with honesty in this thread. New information should be welcomed but running out long disproved Russian propaganda & lies really has no place in this thread.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Anyone trying to bring up Russian language discrimination, Ukraine is run by Nazis, Russia is trying to defend itself, Putin wants peace, coup etc really isn't posting with honesty in this thread. New information should be welcomed but running out long disproved Russian propaganda & lies really has no place in this thread.

It’s a conclusion in search of a justification. It’s just tiresome when you see it repeated again and again.

 

[Zidane98]

Vatnik Warehouse! Flimsy justifications are just the beginning!

A vatnik app could be a gold mine if only I-tunes & google play app stores weren't sanctioned in Russia....

 

[Bloods86]

For those of us who are old enough to remember, there's a very strong case to say Gorbachev did more for the benefit of humanity than any other person who lived in the 20C.
...
So how did the West thank Gorbachev and Russia by extension?

We went from agreeing not to move NATO 'an inch east of Germany'
...
And yet, every time he's been asked, since the outset of the conflict, Putin has said Russia is willing to sit down for peace talks.

Interesting you'd try to claim some sort of superior level of knowledge via age, then reference Gorbachev with admiration and the (false) "not one inch eastward (of Germany)" narrative, when the man himself said there was never such an agreement. It's fiction.

Yeah, the guy who has invaded other countries repeatedly (uninvited), thereby causing his borders to be closer to NATO members and scaring others into joining, targeting civilians, committing ethnic cleansing etc, is really interested in peace.

 

[Zidane98]

It’s a conclusion in search of a justification. It’s just tiresome when you see it repeated again and again.

We all know the purpose of anyone regurgitating such claims.

 

[Zidane98]

Interesting you'd try to claim some sort of superior level of knowledge via age, then reference Gorbachev with admiration and the (false) "not one inch eastward (of Germany)" narrative, when the man himself said there was never such an agreement. It's fiction.

Yeah, the guy who has invaded other countries repeatedly (uninvited), thereby causing his borders to be closer to NATO members and scaring others into joining, targeting civilians, committing ethnic cleansing etc, is really interested in peace.

He has also ignored the fact that Russia signed an agreement brokered by the US & UK for transfer of nuclear weapons & TU160 Blackjack bombers in exchange for Russia agreeing to defend Ukraine.


Of course, when Russia ignore actual written agreements it isn't a problem. But a promise that was never made is apparently the end of the world.