Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

You are the person loudly proclaiming a not only debunked but disgraceful lie about Bandera, and are so biased that you ignore anything that doesn't support your view.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs claimed in its Telegram statement that Russian forces pulled out of Bucha on March 30.



Ukrainian Territorial Defence forces "Botsman" boys entered Bucha on March 31st, posted on April 1 "Actually there is nothing to do there. Just mountains of burnt equipment and houses."

2nd April Ukraine army documented in video wrecked cars, broken tanks, destroyed buildings and disarray but no bodies.

The Ukrainian Territorial Defence "Botsman" boys and their leader Sergei Korotkikh are implicated in their own video they posted of them giving the green light to shoot anyone without a blue armband showing loyalty to Ukraine?

I suspect you believe Russia left Bucha as a goodwill gesture too.

 

[BlueE]

For those who insist NATO had no intention of trying to use Ukraine for the sake of weakening/balkanising Russia/causing regime change, what do they make of Democrat Adam Schiff saying this - from all the way back in 2019?




Hard not to call this 'America's proxy war' when they themselves once happily insisted it was?

Interesting source too...

View attachment 1890908


...but of course, that's how many in the 'Global South' feel.

Zelenskyy plans to fire Commander-in-Chief Zaluzhnyi, other generals: Media report

Zelenskyy also intends to remove General Staff Chief Shaptala, Joint Forces Commander Naiev, and Interior Minister Klymenko from their positions, claims Russian daily - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Being opening critical of your boss, even if justified, looks like it may have got zaluzhnyi fired and his supporters purged, if this report is true

This isn't good if the replacement is C I A friendly Budanov. Crazy enough to bomb nuclear power stations?

 

[BlueE]

So clearly you’re fully cooked (I remember you from the COVID thread) but I am interested in how this comes about

What is the forum that you go to where people discuss all these theories?

Clearly you didn't read Mobbs link, which I was quoting from in most of my reply you've jumped on.

I'm curious, if I'm fully cooked what do you call someone that has a delusional belief rivalling holocaust denial?

 

[Zidane98]

Oh come off it.

Greenwald's "principles"

Messing with the Truth: Disinformation in the West Spread by Glenn Greenwald

Kremlin disinformation is actively spreading in Europe, supported by Western speakers. Glenn Greenwald, a laureate of the most prestigious journalism...

voxukraine.org

Excerpt from said article:





He's an advocate for Neo Nazis.

 

[Zidane98]

Confirmed by Min. of Defence and independent advisors, Russians gone on 30th.

Mayor video on 31st confirming date, Russians gone and no bodies in streets.

Text from Botsman on 1st "Actually there is nothing to do there. Just mountains of burnt equipment and houses."

Video posted on Telegram channel “Botsman” that shows members of his combat group walking around Bucha and discussing whether to shoot people without blue armbands (which Ukrainian soldiers wear to distinguish themselves).

It’s true that Korotkykh’s group was in Bucha after Russian troops left.

Members of the group filmed the video on Vokzalna Street, where Russian military vehicles that were destroyed by Ukrainian artillery fire in early March are still standing. The area where the bodies lay on Yablonska Street is less than 500 meters away.

However, Sergey Korotkykh himself told Meduza that the video was filmed on April 2, when Ukrainian police officers and journalists had already entered the city.

So there a discrepancy in the time posted was before it was taken and it's a coincidence that all the bodies were found with white armbands or white cloth, indicating Russian sympathiser?

On the word of one of the most vicious neo Nazi criminals, who said he wasn't even there?

I'm sure you've given everyone a run down of "call sign Botsman" and his "boys". Have you?

I've said from the start, this is a war crime that needs to be properly investigated with evidence judged by a Criminal Court.

I don't know what the US citizen Lira said to justify the "charges" against him and still waiting for the video, but I have seen videos of him criticising Zelenskyy and exposing the millions he was given by corrupt oligarch Kolomoisky.

You're cheering on Russian genocide here with your denialism.

 

[Zidane98]

Just a daily reminder that Crimea was Russian until the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party transferred it to Ukraine while he was head of the USSR.

Going off the logic here does this mean Russia should return Belgorod to Ukraine? It was after all captured by force by the red army from the Ukranian republic at the beginning of the USSR era.


With all the attacks by Belgorod by Putin & co on Ukranian speaking people in the oblast it's only fair that Russia returns it to Ukraine don't you think?

 

[Zidane98]

Other territory Russia will have to return ASAP as they were all taken unfairly by Russia:


Karelia - annexed illegally from Finland. Should be returned immediately.

Vladivostok - Treaty of Aigun was unfair according to many in China. Needs to be voided and Vladivostock returned to its rightful owner, China.

Northern Belarus / Smolensk - Annexed from Grand Duchy of Lithuania - the original & rightful owner is Lithuania. Lithuanian MPs have even publicly stated this:





Rostov - annexed from Ukranian people's republic by force in 1919. Rostov needs to be returned to its rightful owner and successor to the Ukranian Republic. It was transferred to Russian SSR during the USSR era unfairly.


Anyone who promotes the idea that Crimea is Russian based off historical precedent must also believe all these territories should ceded by Russia to their rightful owners.

 

[ferball]

Greenwald's "principles"

Messing with the Truth: Disinformation in the West Spread by Glenn Greenwald

Kremlin disinformation is actively spreading in Europe, supported by Western speakers. Glenn Greenwald, a laureate of the most prestigious journalism...

voxukraine.org

Excerpt from said article:

View attachment 1891034



He's an advocate for Neo Nazis.

Its a tradition in the US. From a former head of the ACLU:

No mention was made of the fact that I was Jewish, though my last name made that fact unmistakable. I later learned that that when members of the press questioned the Nazi leader about my religious background, he reportedly said that his primary concern was with successfully exercising his First Amendment rights, not the personal beliefs of his lawyers.

The Skokie Case: How I Came To Represent The Free Speech Rights Of Nazis | ACLU

In 1977, the ACLU of Illinois received a call from a Nazi leader complaining that his planned demonstration had been blocked. The ensuing legal battle, and the controversy around it, would test the organization’s commitment to the First Amendment.

www.aclu.org

Pretty sure i've read in this thread how Bandera was a good guy anyway so what's the problem?

 

[ferball]

Going off the logic here does this mean Russia should return Belgorod to Ukraine? It was after all captured by force by the red army from the Ukranian republic at the beginning of the USSR era.


With all the attacks by Belgorod by Putin & co on Ukranian speaking people in the oblast it's only fair that Russia returns it to Ukraine don't you think?

Dunno and don't really care.

My point is that whether its Ukraine or Russia both nations are stifling the Crimean desire for self deterination as an independent state. Ukraine spent a fair proportion of the 90s doing just that so people arguing to return Crimea to Ukrainian rule are just arguing to replace one occupation with another and have no real legitimacy.

 

[Bloods86]

Greenwald's "principles"

Messing with the Truth: Disinformation in the West Spread by Glenn Greenwald

Kremlin disinformation is actively spreading in Europe, supported by Western speakers. Glenn Greenwald, a laureate of the most prestigious journalism...

voxukraine.org

Excerpt from said article:

View attachment 1891034



He's an advocate for Neo Nazis.

Everyone has a right to a defence in legal proceedings.

But in the world of journalism (or whatever we call his work these days), you have freedom not to provide cover for evil.

 

[Zidane98]

Dunno and don't really care.

My point is that whether its Ukraine or Russia both nations are stifling the Crimean desire for self deterination as an independent state. Ukraine spent a fair proportion of the 90s doing just that so people arguing to return Crimea to Ukrainian rule are just arguing to replace one occupation with another and have no real legitimacy.

This is not logical. Crimean parliament voted to remain as part of Ukraine following the breakup of the USSR. Less Sevastopol which remained a special subject.

There is no doubt under international law Crimea is Ukranian.


This is all ignoring the fact that Crimea was attacked and annexed by the Russian empire against the will of the original indigenous owners of Crimea - the Ottoman empire.


If you're going to make the argument that both Ukraine & Russia were occupiers then you must also believe that the only state that has a rightful claim to Crimea is Turkey, the successor state to the Ottoman empire.


Maybe we should ask Turkey about their thoughts on Crimea:

Erdoğan to Putin: Return Crimea to ‘rightful owners’

Turkish leader joins parade of leaders dealing blows to Putin.

www.politico.eu

 

[Visions]

In accordance with Russian logic, Ukraine can invade these historically linked regions, take them under control and then sue for peace incorporating them within the Ukrainian federation, and the crackpot Russian vatnik trolls shouldn’t have an issue with it.

 

[Zidane98]

In accordance with Russian logic, Ukraine can invade these historically linked regions, take them under control and then sue for peace incorporating them within the Ukrainian federation, and the crackpot Russian vatnik trolls shouldn’t have an issue with it.

Yep. Ukraine will need to denazify Russia to protect Ukranian speakers.

 

[Profop]

Clearly you didn't read Mobbs link, which I was quoting from in most of my reply you've jumped on.

I'm curious, if I'm fully cooked what do you call someone that has a delusional belief rivalling holocaust denial?

You’re saying Bucha was a fake perpetrated as a frame job against Russia. That cooked thinking

You didn’t invent that, there must be a website with forums with beliefs that mirror yours (a similar but opposite echo chamber to what you think this is) and I was just wondering what site that is

 

[Zidane98]

You’re saying Bucha was a fake perpetrated as a frame job against Russia. That cooked thinking

You didn’t invent that, there must be a website with forums with beliefs that mirror yours (a similar but opposite echo chamber to what you think this is) and I was just wondering what site that is

The Grayzone - The Grayzone

The Grayzone is an independent news website producing original investigative journalism on politics and empire.

thegrayzone.com

 

[wannabejack]

Borrell: EU foreign ministers agree on plan to transfer profits from frozen Russian assets to Ukraine

European Union foreign ministers have reached a political agreement to finalize the work on transferring revenues from frozen Russian assets to Ukraine based on the proposal suggested in December, EU's top diplomat Josep Borrell said on Jan. 22.

kyivindependent.com

The EU proposed a plan on Dec. 12 to seize about 15 billion euros ($16.2 billion) in projected profits generated by frozen assets of Russia's Central Bank and transfer them to Ukraine.

Speaking at the Jan. 22 press conference, Borrell also promised that the EU would continue to provide Kyiv with "predictable assistance" and said he would travel to Ukraine in the first or second week of February.

"The ministers agreed that this is not the moment to weaken our support to Ukraine; on the contrary, it is the moment to do more and faster, with financial resources, military equipment, training for soldiers and all Ukrainians need to defend," he added.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

So, on topic,

Thanks for trying Mobbs

 

[Jello_B]

Greenwald's "principles"

Messing with the Truth: Disinformation in the West Spread by Glenn Greenwald

Kremlin disinformation is actively spreading in Europe, supported by Western speakers. Glenn Greenwald, a laureate of the most prestigious journalism...

voxukraine.org

Excerpt from said article:

View attachment 1891034



He's an advocate for Neo Nazis.

Huh? I don’t know this guy but isn’t that just lawyer speak. He is just saying he has a principle of the legal system. He even then goes onto say when defending people that he hates.
Ie - I hate racist people. But the principle of law seems that even those people have a right to a defence.
No different than a defence lawyer for a murderer.

 

[PeterSalt]

The Grayzone - The Grayzone

The Grayzone is an independent news website producing original investigative journalism on politics and empire.

thegrayzone.com

FMD - let me guess, Blumenthal and Mate shilling for russia again?

 

[Zidane98]

FMD - let me guess, Blumenthal and Mate shilling for russia again?

That's award winning & 100% independent Blumenthal & Mate.

 

[PeterSalt]

Zelenskyy plans to fire Commander-in-Chief Zaluzhnyi, other generals: Media report

Zelenskyy also intends to remove General Staff Chief Shaptala, Joint Forces Commander Naiev, and Interior Minister Klymenko from their positions, claims Russian daily - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Being opening critical of your boss, even if justified, looks like it may have got zaluzhnyi fired and his supporters purged, if this report is true

This isn't good if the replacement is C I A friendly Budanov. Crazy enough to bomb nuclear power stations?

This is a carry on from a similar stories floated in mid December which were largely debunked

Last I read on the weekend Zaluzhnyi was moving into a government defence department role. It was suggested he is considering a political career post war and this move is seen as a transition

 

[ferball]

This is not logical. Crimean parliament voted to remain as part of Ukraine following the breakup of the USSR. Less Sevastopol which remained a special subject.

Then they voted for independence then the Ukrainian Parliament told them they'd mess them up if they did so the backed down despite the results of referendums etc etc

There is no doubt under international law Crimea is Ukranian.


This is all ignoring the fact that Crimea was attacked and annexed by the Russian empire against the will of the original indigenous owners of Crimea - the Ottoman empire.

You're seriously telling me the original indigenous owners of Crimea were the Ottomans? LOL I honestly dunno how to respond to that. That magical mix of ignorance and certainty is always good for a laugh.

If you're going to make the argument that both Ukraine & Russia were occupiers then you must also believe that the only state that has a rightful claim to Crimea is Turkey, the successor state to the Ottoman empire.

The Ottoman lost Crimea in a war. Then a treaty was signed that gave Russia sovereignty 300 years ago. But they also occupied the Crimea. I think before that it was the mongols and before that someone else. Originally the area was populated by Sythians smoking weed.

The closest the Crimean peninsula had to indigenous people in the last 1500 years are Tartars and they are not Ukrainian or Russian (may be closer to Russian) and altho they are a turkic people they weren't Ottomans. (There were Russians from Novogrod there before them tho. I think they also conquered Kyiv many years ago. Bloody Russians, always invading Ukraine hey.)

You don't even acknowledge the Tartars existence by the looks of things. Are you Stalin?

Maybe we should ask Turkey about their thoughts on Crimea:

Erdoğan to Putin: Return Crimea to ‘rightful owners’

Turkish leader joins parade of leaders dealing blows to Putin.

www.politico.eu

ZIdane: Putin is a fascist.

Also Zidane: Lets ask Erdogan* what to do.

* Also a fascist.

Anyway you claim the Crimean parliament voted to remian part of Ukraine but it seems that happened under duress.

On May 5 1992 the Crimean parliament voted for independence and a day later Ukraine told them they couldn't have it then a bit over a week later gave them an ultimatum anulling the vote and demanding they end their plans for independence. A few years later (1995) Ukraine sent thousands of soldiers and coppers to Crimea and dissolved the parliament, sent special forces into the elected presidents home and sent him into exile.

The Ukrainians appear to have used the fact that the Crimean parliament was divided from the President as the excuse for their actions but both the Parliament and president wanted independence from Ukraine and closer ties to Russia.

It seems as tho the only reason Crimea remained a part of Ukraine during the 1990s were the constant attempts by Ukraine to deny Crimea autonomy then independence.

Probably cos they're so democratic.

 

[Rayzorwire]

This is a Rand Corp/reverse vampires briefing paper from 2019 about how the US can * with Russia, commissioned by the US Army iirc. Page 96 Providing Lethal Aid to Ukraine fits is interesting given the war. This is a copy the table from pg 135

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR3000/RR3063/RAND_RR3063.pdf

Measure Benefits Costs and Risk Likelihood of Success
Provide lethal aid to Ukraine High High* Medium
Increase support to the Syrian rebels Medium High Low
Promote regime change in Belarus High High Low
Exploit tensions in the South Caucasus Low Medium Low
Reduce Russian influence in Central Asia Low Medium Low
Challenge Russian presence in Moldova Low Medium Low


Lucky for Ukraine that Russia had nothing to fear from the US.


* One of these risks was the chance of war according to the paper and if it came to war it would be costly.

Risk assessment not looking too pretty these days, is it?

I always find the papers out of RAND to be much like when Kogan himself speaks...these spiders operate so far above the public version of 'truth' that they literally cannot write anything without conceding own goals which - if printed in the same newspapers - would undo most if not all the propaganda they're trying to push elsewhere (everywhere!).

Reckon you could find enough 'admissions against interest' in that piece to post one a day for half a year or so, but I have to say, one thing I always enjoy about these reports is that you get fairly straight, mostly stripped of exaggeration information on quite a number of things.

Just a quick example:

Political Parties

When Putin first came to power at the end of the 20th century, he ruled without an associated party, instead working with a coalition of sympathetic parties in the State Duma. In 2001, Putin’s political allies formed the United Russia party, but Putin himself has never joined it, even during the 2008–2012 period when he was prime minister. United Russia advertises itself as the “president’s party” and serves as a home for a variety of schools of thought that compete for influence.51 In the late 2000s, these included former Russian deputy prime min- ister Vladislav Surkov’s notion of sovereign democracy,52 which contrasted with the modernization boosted by liberalizing technocrat Medvedev.
...

Despite the existence of numerous political parties in Russia, none presents a plausible threat to Putin’s power. Unlike the Soviet Communists, Putin finds the existence of opposition parties potentially useful. He wants to appear (and actually be) genuinely popular, so a one-party state would be counterproductive. The Communist Party of the Russian Federation is still the closest thing Russia has to a functioning opposition party, and was a popular protest vote in the 2012 elections for individuals alienated from Putin and his United Russia party.

The Communist Party’s aging and unimaginative leadership, however, handicaps its ability to mount a serious challenge to Putin’s rule.54 The social-democratic A Just Russia party, meanwhile, espouses a more market-oriented approach to socialism. The Duma also has a considerable nationalist contingent, most prominently Vladimir Zhirinovsky, the head of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia. Neither liberal nor democratic, Zhirinovsky’s brash populist and anti-Western rhetoric has attracted a considerable number of devoted followers, but many Russians consider him a ridiculous figure. Other than the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia, only one Russian nationalist party, Rodina, currently has representation in the Duma.
...
Russian liberals, meanwhile, have long been marginalized, and their support is mostly limited to a small number of urban intellectuals. None of Russia’s liberal parties has had representation in the State Duma since 2003. Moreover, most political opposition is directed toward Putin’s domestic policies. Even Russian liberals on the margins of the country’s politics rarely make more than muted criticisms of Putin’s foreign and defense policies—in considerable part because they freely acknowledge that these policies enjoy widespread support from the population.56



Still biased as hell, but certainly a long way from the 'autocrat of a one-party state who rules through bloody repression' propaganda masquerading as analysis which is typical from the Western MSM outlets.

Ha. I ****ed around for five minutes trying to make that table look neat and failed miserably.

In preview it's perfect - screenshot from there to get around the glitch?

 

[Rayzorwire]

Zelenskyy plans to fire Commander-in-Chief Zaluzhnyi, other generals: Media report

Zelenskyy also intends to remove General Staff Chief Shaptala, Joint Forces Commander Naiev, and Interior Minister Klymenko from their positions, claims Russian daily - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Being opening critical of your boss, even if justified, looks like it may have got zaluzhnyi fired and his supporters purged, if this report is true

This isn't good if the replacement is C I A friendly Budanov. Crazy enough to bomb nuclear power stations?

Following all of this with great interest, seems pivotal to the next few months.

 

[Bloods86]

Still biased as hell, but certainly a long way from the 'autocrat of a one-party state who rules through bloody repression' propaganda masquerading as analysis which is typical from the Western MSM outlets.

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that along with taking a heavy hand to protests, internet censorship, and a lack of a free press, it really seems unlucky to be journalists, politicians, business figures, lawyers, or activists that are critical of Putin and his government. Lucky for Putin so many of them have died mysteriously from natural causes such as poisoning, gunshot, assault, or falling out of windows, or are criminals, ending up in gaol.