Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 5 - thread rules updated

[wannabejack]

After a cease fire we will send troops that make a ceasefire agreement unacceptable to Russia, making any agreement impossible. Congratulations, the war continues

Putin isn’t interested in peace!

Ukraine has shown flexibility in negotiations, from accepting that NATO membership isn’t in its foreseeable future to a willingness to hold elections despite martial law which prohibits them.

 

[Andre]

My main point of contention is you seem to be suggesting the Russian air force will fall apart and drop off a cliff(due to metal fatigue?). This seems like' the missiles will run out in march '22' type areas

That's hyperbole. I've specifically said they aren't going to fall apart like watching a Roadrunner cartoon. I've just said I expect a drop in use and an increase in incidents. Perhaps I should clarify that, I don't expect anything like dropping to 25% of previously, or twice the number of incidents. I'd expect still around 75-85% of what was done in 2025 and maybe 10-20% more incidents. Which would again drop further in 2027 if the war is still going then. Figures that clearly are going to make it harder for the Russian's, but not in and of themselves a silver bullet for Ukraine.

I'm sure we can agree there's no silver bullet for either side. This is just another area where Russia's ability to project power on the battlefield is continuing to trend in the wrong direction. Outside of drones, all areas are worse than prior to the full invasion. The army has gone from T-80's and T-72's and BMP-3's, to T-55's and BMP-1's, to motor bikes, to riding horses. Artillery systems are similar and their navy is barricading themselves in port.

 

[barreness]

Far right parties have 5% of seats in the Rada. This is simply not reality despite whatever script you are following tells you.

Yanukovych abandoned his position of President and fled to his master Putin in Russia and never returned.

How does being a political ally of Pedo Putin work out by the way?

If the Jan 6th uprising was successful and the proud boys or whatever successfully occupied the capital, then a vote came out of there that the election was fraudulent and Trump was the president against all constitutional law. Would you consider this a coup?

This is basically what you're defending

 

[barreness]

Putin isn’t interested in peace!

It's quite clear from the second week of the war that peace was on the cards. On Russian terms of course

Ukraine has shown flexibility in negotiations, from accepting that NATO membership isn’t in its foreseeable future to a willingness to hold elections despite martial law which prohibits them.

Oh good, they've finally understood NATO isn't acceptable. 'But we need security guarantees like article 5', yeh nah.

The deal floated in Alaska was quite a big pull back from Russian goals, quite clearly the best Ukraine will get, take it and run.

You know they can just cut martial law with a signature. The issues with an election is that every left wing party is banned, men get taken off the street, and will the occupied/EU/Russian voters be given it.

Zeleskny literally banned negotiations for two years until Trump forced him back, how can the revisionism be so strong ffs

 

[Zidane98]

If the Jan 6th uprising was successful and the proud boys or whatever successfully occupied the capital, then a vote came out of there that the election was fraudulent and Trump was the president against all constitutional law. Would you consider this a coup?

This is basically what you're defending

Yanukovych abandoned his position as President by fleeing to Pedo Putin in Russia. We and you know why he did this We've been over this many times.

Rada didn't change until the June 2014 elections apart from interim leadership. Otherwise all members were exactly the same government that existed before Maidan.

Vatniks like you simply cannot accept to this very day that the majority of people in Ukraine had enough of Putin & Russia raping & pillaging the place with no material benefit for Ukraine or its people at all.

That's the reason why pro Russian parties wee resoundingly voted against in the 2014 elections along with far right parties.

A fact that you consistently do not mention.

Ukraine will never be a Russian puppet state again. Ukranians view Putin the same way Jews view Hitler and will never agree to Pedo Putin's demands.

It's done.

 

[barreness]

Yanukovych abandoned his position as President by fleeing to Pedo Putin in Russia. We and you know why he did this We've been over this many times.

Zelesky abandoned his position of peace(fufilling Minsk II) and anti corruption. Guess it's fine to overthrow him

Also, Yani's position wasn't strictly pro EU, he was elected on a sceptical but i'll look into it position. Like exactly what he did.
Ukraine was offered a restrictive Association Agreement, not membership.

Rada didn't change until the June 2014 elections apart from interim leadership. Otherwise all members were exactly the same government that existed before Maidan.

It was occupied by armed fascists, the right sector. Votes at the barrel of a gun, very democratic

Vatniks like you simply cannot accept to this very day that the majority of people in Ukraine had enough of Putin & Russia raping & pillaging the place with no material benefit for Ukraine or its people at all.

That's the reason why pro Russian parties wee resoundingly voted against in the 2014 elections along with far right parties.

A fact that you consistently do not mention.

Ukraine will never be a Russian puppet state again. Ukranians view Putin the same way Jews view Hitler and will never agree to Pedo Putin's demands.

It's done.

Why did Zelensky not fulfil his election promise?
The far right said he was capitulating, they have power even without electoral votes(this is a shame because as you say most Ukrainians aren't fascists and gave Ze a large mandate to make peace)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/thousands-march-kyiv-oppose-east-ukraine-peace-plan
Thousands of people have joined a march through Kyiv led by nationalist parties and veterans associations to protest against changes to a peace plan for east Ukraine that they have called a “capitulation” to Russia.

 

[wannabejack]

It's quite clear from the second week of the war that peace was on the cards. On Russian terms of course

Oh good, they've finally understood NATO isn't acceptable. 'But we need security guarantees like article 5', yeh nah.

The deal floated in Alaska was quite a big pull back from Russian goals, quite clearly the best Ukraine will get, take it and run.

You know they can just cut martial law with a signature. The issues with an election is that every left wing party is banned, men get taken off the street, and will the occupied/EU/Russian voters be given it.

Zeleskny literally banned negotiations for two years until Trump forced him back, how can the revisionism be so strong ffs

Looks like they’ll get their security guarantee.

At the start of the invasion russia’s goal was to effectively control the entire Ukraine which they abandoned well before any peace talks in Alaska so there was no “big pull back”.

Ukraine has said it’s willing to have elections. "Elections could be held in the next 60 to 90 days if security for the vote was guaranteed with the help of the US and other allies."

Zelensky did “not literally” ban negotiations. The negotiations were between the US and russia and Zelensky said “no peace deal without Ukraine involvement”.

 

[barreness]

Looks like they’ll get their security guarantee.

Dreaming. Best option was the one listed in instanbul

At the start of the invasion russia’s goal was to effectively control the entire Ukraine which they abandoned well before any peace talks in Alaska so there was no “big pull back”.

The goal was to have Ukraine retain neutrality as per their charter of independence. This can be 'pro-russian' or neutral, never NATO

Ukraine has said it’s willing to have elections. "Elections could be held in the next 60 to 90 days if security for the vote was guaranteed with the help of the US and other allies."

Finish the article man, 'we can do elections if Russia gives us a 90 day ceasefire'. After Minsk 1&2 Russia will not sign up to this, full deal or nuffin

Zelensky did “not literally” ban negotiations. The negotiations were between the US and russia and Zelensky said “no peace deal without Ukraine involvement”.

Yes he did, I like how you just take retconning revisionism as fact, come man you've been around longer than that.

President Volodymyr Zelenskiy signed a decree on Tuesday formally declaring the prospect of any Ukrainian talks with Kremlin leader Vladimir Putin "impossible"
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...raine-talks-with-putin-impossible-2022-10-04/

President Volodymyr Zelensky's willingness to hold direct talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin this week in Istanbul sparked a question over whether such a move contradicts his earlier decree.
https://kyivindependent.com/didnt-zelensky-impose-a-ban-on-talks-with-putin-not-really/

 

[wannabejack]

....

President Volodymyr Zelenskiy signed a decree on Tuesday formally declaring the prospect of any Ukrainian talks with Kremlin leader Vladimir Putin "impossible"
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...raine-talks-with-putin-impossible-2022-10-04/

President Volodymyr Zelensky's willingness to hold direct talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin this week in Istanbul sparked a question over whether such a move contradicts his earlier decree.
https://kyivindependent.com/didnt-zelensky-impose-a-ban-on-talks-with-putin-not-really/

"Finish the article man,"
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has signed a decree formally stating that Ukraine will refuse to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin, while still leaving open the prospect of talks with Russia under a different president.

From other articles
"Putin has repeatedly refused to meet with Zelenskyy"

 

[barreness]

"Finish the article man,"
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has signed a decree formally stating that Ukraine will refuse to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin, while still leaving open the prospect of talks with Russia under a different president.

Oh ok, if someone overthrows the 25yo govt we can negotiate. Definitely not making negotiation illegal here

You know this is a duplicitous argument. The initial decree was greeted with glee by pro war types, you know this

From other articles
"Putin has repeatedly refused to meet with Zelenskyy"

Of course, leaders don't do the negotiations. Who did the initial Minsk and Istanbul ones? oh that's right a diplomatic core like every other war.
Leaders sign the docs after it is all(mostly) worked out

https://ngodisarm.org/understanding-the-ukraine-war
Ukrainian negotiator, Oleksiy Arestovych, has described how he and his colleagues returned to Kyiv to the popping of champagne corks, celebrating the favorable terms they negotiated, and which Russia agreed to. The Turkish foreign minister and Turkish diplomats expressed dismay at how the US and Britain undermined their mediation and chose to prolong and escalate the war.

 

[Zidane98]

From strength to strength

 

[Zidane98]

 

[Zidane98]

Two Russian shadow fleet tankers seized by US,:.



Not a word said by Putin.


We know what's coming on the Baltic & Black Seas.

 

[Zidane98]

Zelesky abandoned his position of peace(fufilling Minsk II) and anti corruption. Guess it's fine to overthrow him

Also, Yani's position wasn't strictly pro EU, he was elected on a sceptical but i'll look into it position. Like exactly what he did.
Ukraine was offered a restrictive Association Agreement, not membership.

It was occupied by armed fascists, the right sector. Votes at the barrel of a gun, very democratic

Why did Zelensky not fulfil his election promise?
The far right said he was capitulating, they have power even without electoral votes(this is a shame because as you say most Ukrainians aren't fascists and gave Ze a large mandate to make peace)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/thousands-march-kyiv-oppose-east-ukraine-peace-plan
Thousands of people have joined a march through Kyiv led by nationalist parties and veterans associations to protest against changes to a peace plan for east Ukraine that they have called a “capitulation” to Russia.

Free and full elections were held in Ukraine in June 2014. These elections were not held under armed intervention unless you include your human rights abusing occupying Russian soldiers who did not allow Donbass & Crimea residents to vote forcibly (they could travel to non occupiers areas to vote).

As always you're full of shit and only are here to justify Adolf Putin.


Yanukovych did everything he said is a new low in terms of lies you're prepared to perpetuate to justify Putin

 

[Zidane98]

"Finish the article man,"
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has signed a decree formally stating that Ukraine will refuse to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin, while still leaving open the prospect of talks with Russia under a different president.

From other articles
"Putin has repeatedly refused to meet with Zelenskyy"

Bit like those vatniks still peddling the not one inch eastward nonsense.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Interesting article

https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2025/10/preparing-for-the-death-of-putin.html

Yes, just a matter time before after he bankrupts the country for his ego and the chinese move into eastern russia and help thmselves to all that gas and oil, and not only humiliation for him, but for all russian people.

 

[Zidane98]

The Chinese are waiting



Putin will have to be Xis bitch as China could easily walk in and occupy Eastern Siberia without too much of a fight right now.

 

[Aussie in exile]

The Chinese are waiting



Putin will have to be Xis bitch as China could easily walk in and occupy Eastern Siberia without too much of a fight right now.

IF putin had any sort of intelligence he ould with all russian troops and north korean troops troops from Ukrainian territory to save russia from this, but he doesn't so he wont

 

[Zidane98]

Lol




Safe to say that the future of Russian shadow fleet tankers in Baltic, Black & Mediterranean seas is bleak.

Russian oil industry reduced to exports via a few pipelines into China at heavily discounted prices and shipping from Pacific ports.

It is an absolutely spectacular economic fail by Putin - not even the most deluded of vatniks can say otherwise as can be seen from Russian bloggers.


Putin withdrawing from Ukraine completely, respecting all formal agreements would obviously resolve this.

It would also see Russia gain access into 210 billion euros of frozen assets linked to the end of his fascist invasion.

The answer is obvious.

The end game for Pedo Putin nears. He had played all his cards including getting US support pulled by hid bitch Orange Mussolini & using him to pressure Ukraine into giving up territory.

It hasn't worked.

 

[wannabejack]

Oh ok, if someone overthrows the 25yo govt we can negotiate. Definitely not making negotiation illegal here

You know this is a duplicitous argument. The initial decree was greeted with glee by pro war types, you know this

....

But Putin’s presidency is legal after barring the strongest opposition and stuffing the ballot box?

'Everything in Russia is fraudulent': Inside Putin's 'sham' election

Vladimir Putin has towered over Russian politics for more than two decades — this is how he does it, from barring the strongest opposition leaders to stuffing the ballot boxes.

www.abc.net.au

The current Ukrainian government legitimacy is widely recognized by international organizations and foreign governments.

It’s obvious that the “decree was greeted with glee by pro war types” because they are pro war. I would say that the majority of people posting here are not pro war “you know this” but some are pro invasion.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Oh ok, if someone overthrows the 25yo govt we can negotiate. Definitely not making negotiation illegal here

You know this is a duplicitous argument. The initial decree was greeted with glee by pro war types, you know this

Of course, leaders don't do the negotiations. Who did the initial Minsk and Istanbul ones? oh that's right a diplomatic core like every other war.
Leaders sign the docs after it is all(mostly) worked out

https://ngodisarm.org/understanding-the-ukraine-war
Ukrainian negotiator, Oleksiy Arestovych, has described how he and his colleagues returned to Kyiv to the popping of champagne corks, celebrating the favorable terms they negotiated, and which Russia agreed to. The Turkish foreign minister and Turkish diplomats expressed dismay at how the US and Britain undermined their mediation and chose to prolong and escalate the war.

All putin has to do to end the war is withdraw all russian and north korean troops from Ukraian territory. It reall is that simple, but he wont because his ego wont let him, which will lead to him replaced one way or another.

 

[wannabejack]

....

Of course, leaders don't do the negotiations. Who did the initial Minsk and Istanbul ones? oh that's right a diplomatic core like every other war.
Leaders sign the docs after it is all(mostly) worked out
...

"leaders don't do the negotiations"

Putin leaves Alaska with a complete victory after outmanoeuvring Trump

The realities arising from the much-heralded meeting in Alaska between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are that the war in Ukraine will continue, and yet another US president has been outmanoeuvred.

www.abc.net.au

After much anticipation, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin departed Alaska without a deal for a ceasefire in Ukraine.

Putin has made clear he believes Ukraine is not a legitimate country, and would like 100 per cent control over it — not just the 20 per cent Russia has taken since this full invasion began.

 

[Aussie in exile]

"leaders don't do the negotiations"

Putin leaves Alaska with a complete victory after outmanoeuvring Trump

The realities arising from the much-heralded meeting in Alaska between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are that the war in Ukraine will continue, and yet another US president has been outmanoeuvred.

www.abc.net.au

After much anticipation, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin departed Alaska without a deal for a ceasefire in Ukraine.

Putin has made clear he believes Ukraine is not a legitimate country, and would like 100 per cent control over it — not just the 20 per cent Russia has taken since this full invasion began.

The world doesn't consider putin a legitimate president as he has his ways of getting rid of opponents, and us intellgent posters know that as soon as he bankrupts russia, china will move in on eastern russia and help itself to what's left of russian oil and gas.

 

[Zidane98]

Another high quality investigation into a Russian atrocity here. They've determined "weather conditions" were responsible Azerbaijan Airlines J28243 crash:





This is despite Putin publicly admitting Russian air defense mistakenly attacked the flight with a SAM that exploded "near" the aircraft.


Credibility of levels of Russia are at an all time high after this brilliant piece of work.

 

[wannabejack]

From strength to strength

Is he sitting on a toilet?