Was Richmond originally an Irish Cathlolic club?

[spinynorman]

It is an uncomfortable and awkward topic, but as an indicator of the Catholic, Irish, trade union and working class roots of Collingwood, Richmond and Fitrzoy in particular (and Carlton to some degree) those 4 teams were the ones that kept playing during WW1. Staunch establishment clubs Melbourne, Essendon, University and less establishment but still protestant, South Melbourne and St Kilda withdrew.

The Catholic archbishop Mannix opposed the war and conscription as an 'English' war or a 'trade war' and it was a massively divisive and controversial time. During 1917 at the height of the war there was a general strike with 100,000 people on strike for 6 weeks, mass protests, violence between strikers and strike breakers.

Collingwood participating in Anzac Day would be regarded as a pretty edgy decision by most people from 100 years ago. They had the fewest players serve in WW1.

Very much the case. Richmond's President from 1909-1918 was Frank Tudor, a federal Labor MP who opposed conscription. When Billy Hughes pushed for it and split the Labor Party to try to get it through, Tudor became the new ALP Leader. When pressure came for all the VFL players to join the war effort, Tudor had a major part in keeping Richmond, Fitzroy, Collingwood and Carlton in the comp.

One of four political leaders that I'm aware of to have been a club president, along with Arthur Calwell at North, Billy Snedden at Melbourne and of course the dickhead at Hawthorn.

 

[fabulousphil]

2 articles on the pros and cons of Collingwood and playing on ANZAC day.

http://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/2014/04/22/magpies-deserve-play-anzac-day/

Why the Pies don’t deserve to play on Anzac Day



http://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/2014/04/23/pies-right-to-anzac-day/

Patriotic Pies have every right to Anzac Day: historian


And a quote from the above link that IMO sits well with this thread, swap Collingwood with Richmond

Understandably, Collingwood did not whole-heartedly support the war in the beginning.

This wasn’t because of Archbishop Daniel Mannix, as Heenan suggests, but it certainly was because Collingwood was a working class, heavily Irish suburb. The Irish were not highly motivated to fight for England, as they were going through their own struggle for independence.

Fighting for England wasn’t the same as fighting for Australia in their minds. For the one third of the club that was of Irish descent, and strongly Catholic, the war wasn’t as important.

 

[Albert Ross]

Very much the case. Richmond's President from 1909-1918 was Frank Tudor, a federal Labor MP who opposed conscription. When Billy Hughes pushed for it and split the Labor Party to try to get it through, Tudor became the new ALP Leader. When pressure came for all the VFL players to join the war effort, Tudor had a major part in keeping Richmond, Fitzroy, Collingwood and Carlton in the comp.

Worth mentioning that he was a Welsh Protestant, as others have said although Richmond the suburb had a large working class population and a high proportion of Irish Catholics, they were still a minority. Although in Tudor's case, like most politicians, he knew where his votes were coming from and by the time of the War, Richmond City Council was perhaps the single most corrupt organisation in the country and would be for the next 60 years.

 

[Royce Hafey]

I'm more Maric Orthodox myself.

I wouldn't be telling a Croatian that. They're Catholic. It's the Serbs who are Orthodox!

 

[Wrenny]

Can we confirm this? I just need to be sure, to be sure?

 

[Carowhine]

Mannix was right, WWI was a bullshit European war Australians had no reason to be in, especially those of Irish descent.

Your'e thinking in modern terms, but Australia was a part of the british empire then, and largely dependent on the royal navy for its defence; if britain had been defeated, or even just humiliated/forced to come to (bad) terms with germany, then the german navy need only have blockaded our ports and we would have been finished. We had a *vital* interest in WWI and any irish australains and trade unionists who attempted to sabotage the war effort were misguided at best and traitors at worst.

 

[fabulousphil]

Your'e thinking in modern terms, but Australia was a part of the british empire then, and largely dependent on the royal navy for its defence; if britain had been defeated, or even just humiliated/forced to come to (bad) terms with germany, then the german navy need only have blockaded our ports and we would have been finished. We had a *vital* interest in WWI and any irish australains and trade unionists who attempted to sabotage the war effort were misguided at best and traitors at worst.

what about anyone else, or is it just Irish Australians and trade unions ?

The reason why Canberra was built inland rather than on a port is because no one could have imagined a missile going inland from a ship to reach Canberra, i also believe the same reason was used for Washington DC.

You can't help but think in modern terms because it is very hard to put yourself in someones shoes from 100 years.

What i can say is, IMO people had a selflessness about themselves that does not seem to exist today, i am pretty sure many joined the forces for a job, but many also joined out of patriotic sense of duty for King and Empire.

The senseless deaths by the thousands of young Australians in WW1 made Australians IMO rethink the importance of Kind and Empire to this country.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Your'e thinking in modern terms, but Australia was a part of the british empire then, and largely dependent on the royal navy for its defence; if britain had been defeated, or even just humiliated/forced to come to (bad) terms with germany, then the german navy need only have blockaded our ports and we would have been finished. We had a *vital* interest in WWI and any irish australains and trade unionists who attempted to sabotage the war effort were misguided at best and traitors at worst.

We found out the value the mighty empire put on us just over twenty years later

Brits abandon Asia after the fall of Singapore, tell us we are on our own, AND refuse to allow our troops to return home to defend their own home from the rapidly moving Japanese army

Britain abandoning Asia I get, but I find it disgusting we were ordered to not even defend ourselves with our own troops. It showed exactly the value the British had on our relationship with them, we were a servant only there to support their interests.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Your'e thinking in modern terms, but Australia was a part of the british empire then, and largely dependent on the royal navy for its defence; if britain had been defeated, or even just humiliated/forced to come to (bad) terms with germany, then the german navy need only have blockaded our ports and we would have been finished. We had a *vital* interest in WWI and any irish australains and trade unionists who attempted to sabotage the war effort were misguided at best and traitors at worst.

We'd been a federated, sovereign nation for 13 years before WWI. Irish Australians had memories or family stories of being oppressed and dispossessed by the English - that's why they moved here. Why would/should they go and fight for that country?

The German navy would not have bothered with us, half a world away.

 

[spinynorman]

Your'e thinking in modern terms, but Australia was a part of the british empire then, and largely dependent on the royal navy for its defence; if britain had been defeated, or even just humiliated/forced to come to (bad) terms with germany, then the german navy need only have blockaded our ports and we would have been finished. We had a *vital* interest in WWI and any irish australains and trade unionists who attempted to sabotage the war effort were misguided at best and traitors at worst.

lol. You're one of those people who supported the knighting of Prince Philip, aren't you.

 

[Royce Hafey]

To be fair, dismantling the Ottoman Empire and allowing the Middle East to be colonised by the French and British was a masterstroke that has led to the region being the bastion of peace and progress it is today - well worth killing more than one percent of the Australian population. How misguided it was of Irish Australians not to realise what a force for good the British Empire was, especially after all the good things the English had done for Ireland over the years.

 

[fabulousphil]

To be fair, dismantling the Ottoman Empire and allowing the Middle East to be colonised by the French and British was a masterstroke that has led to the region being the bastion of peace and progress it is today - well worth killing more than one percent of the Australian population. How misguided it was of Irish Australians not to realise what a force for good the British Empire was, especially after all the good things the English had done for Ireland over the years.

The English were masters at divide and rule, for a small nation they have had a huge say in shaping the world as we know it.

If not for the American war of independence, and petty criminals blocking English jails we would not be here now.