WCE Coaching v BF

[jatz14]

I thought it worth a thread for the WCE BF community to ponder its performance relative the performance of the collective coaching/recruiting prowess of the Eagles over the last few years.

If you thought WC would be in the top 2, and genuinely being talked about as one of the flag favourites by the wise men of the East, stand proud, and provide a link.

If you thought a midfield lead by Priddis could never have a shot at a title. If you ever listed all the great mid fielders other teams had, and moaned about our vanilla plodders. If you ever found yourself crying with frustration at the criminal stupidity of the Eagles in persisting with all the duds on our list, like Sheppard, Masten, Hill, Rosa, Priddis.

If you thought at the start of the year, too slow, unskilled, soft, vanilla, shallow to be anything other than a midtable pretender. If half way through this year, you were thinking, this is better than expected, but no chance this year, build for 2016 or 2017.

If you still look on with some bemusement as our vanilla mids roll over the top of midfields filled with players that we were crying about the Eagles not having.

Then welcome to the club. Not a very exclusive club, but one littered with notable names (you know who you are).

This is a thread for that club.

Let us celebrate our collective inability to out strategize the leadership of the WCE.

 

[Ochre]

Your post assumes that preseason the club thought we'd be exactly where we our now which I highly doubt.

 

[HoneyBadger35]

Lock this thread before ep2006 finds it and crashes BigFooty.

 

[jatz14]

Your post assumes that preseason the club thought we'd be exactly where we our now which I highly doubt.

I do not think the club tries to practice prescience, they would leave that to bigfooty. I do know the club thought this list with a few tweaks could take them all the way, because they have been saying so consistently.

 

[ep2018]

Lock this thread before ep2006 finds it and crashes BigFooty.

Top 2 not locked in yet.

 

[Keys]

One thing that crossed my mind today was Worsfold's faith in 2013 that, despite what appeared overwhelming evidence to the contary, the playing group was capable of challenging for a flag. Off the top of my head the only players currently in the best 22 that weren't at West Coast in 2013 are Yeo, Sheed and Ellis.

With the benefit of hindsight, 2015 is arguably the natural progression form 2011/12 with 2013/14 being aberrations - 2013 due to a coach that went one year too many and lost his way taking the team down with him as he ran out of ideas and 2014 was the result of a playing group adjusting to a new inexperienced coach with new ideas and game plan that took almost a full season to start kicking into gear

Arguably Woosh was right about the quality of the playing group we had it's just that he wasn't the right person to harness it.

 

[jatz14]

One thing that crossed my mind today was Worsfold's faith in 2013 that, despite what appeared overwhelming evidence to the contary, the playing group was capable of challenging for a flag. Off the top of my head the only players currently in the best 22 that weren't at West Coast in 2013 are Yeo, Sheed and Ellis.

With the benefit of hindsight, 2015 is arguably the natural progression form 2011/12 with 2013/14 being aberrations - 2013 due to a coach that went one year too many and lost his way taking the team down with him as he ran out of ideas and 2014 was the result of a playing group adjusting to a new inexperienced coach with new ideas and game plan that took almost a full season to start kicking into gear

Arguably Woosh was right about the quality of the playing group we had it's just that he wasn't the right person to harness it.

This thread was partly the response of seeing an interview Worsfold did. When asked about how they were doing in 2015, he said they were 2015 about where they thought they would be at this point.

So was it an inability of Worsfold to get the best out of them. Or an inability of the club to stand up to the pressure, while the playing list took the time they needed to become the players they could become.

While we applaud Simpson as a coach, might there have been a resurgence under Worsfold if he stayed.

No way of ever knowing really.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[dajesmac]

This thread was partly the response of seeing an interview Worsfold did. When asked about how they were doing in 2015, he said they were 2015 about where they thought they would be at this point.

So was it an inability of Worsfold to get the best out of them. Or an inability of the club to stand up to the pressure, while the playing list took the time they needed to become the players they could become.

While we applaud Simpson as a coach, might there have been a resurgence under Worsfold if he stayed.

No way of ever knowing really.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

I do think that, if he had sorted his life out.

That being said, Simpson seems to be an absolute gun coach so it has been to the betterment of this club that he has joined. Even if I was gutted to lose Woosh.

 

[Matera LeNui]

I think it's a culmination of a lot of things. Simpson has brought out the best in a lot of players. Our game plan I feel rewards the whole team. Our lesser players have gone up a level and our top players have gone up a level. The comraderie and confidence of the players in turn is at a high. I thought finishing 6th was a possibility at the start of the year. We could still use 1 or 2 great midfielders but most sides can. With Sheed and Duggan, Yeo coming in that has helped that area combined with A Grade form of Gaff/Priddis that has helped immensely. When you look at the list so many of our players are having there best years or not far off it for the club. The game style has enabled our players with a little more flair to come to the party while our lockdown/contested poss guys keep going about there business. Far less turnovers with better skills, brash ball movement etc.

 

[SpaceClef]

meh.

For mine, the most damning evidence was our complete inability to match it with strong sides, and not just for a year leading up to this season, but for a number of years. That was despite an extended period of dominance in the ruck.

Using that evidence to form an opinion that this side had some serious flaws is what every punter had done - not just BF armchair experts, but the media as a whole.

That opinion didn't improve when one of our main strengths (strong KPDs) was neutralised at the beginning of this year, and we were annihilated by Fremantle (the WB game didn't bother me too much personally, as we seemed to underestimate a gun side).

The only reason anyone could have predicted our current scenario is blind faith that our side would suddenly gel, and that players like Wellingham and Sheppard would suddenly become ultra-reliable and versatile, despite being nothing but inconsistent every year prior to this.

Every single club in the competition, bar clubs deep in the throes of a rebuild, will tell their fans and the media that they think their list has the potential to go all the way. Obviously most lists don't have or fulfill that potential, and as a result one of the major sources of fuel for the BigFooty community is supporters' inherent scepticism of footy clubs' PR spin. I don't think that should come as a surprise to anyone.

 

[Bender_]

GO EAGLES

 

[Eaglemaniac]

One thing that crossed my mind today was Worsfold's faith in 2013 that, despite what appeared overwhelming evidence to the contary, the playing group was capable of challenging for a flag. Off the top of my head the only players currently in the best 22 that weren't at West Coast in 2013 are Yeo, Sheed and Ellis.

With the benefit of hindsight, 2015 is arguably the natural progression form 2011/12 with 2013/14 being aberrations - 2013 due to a coach that went one year too many and lost his way taking the team down with him as he ran out of ideas and 2014 was the result of a playing group adjusting to a new inexperienced coach with new ideas and game plan that took almost a full season to start kicking into gear

Arguably Woosh was right about the quality of the playing group we had it's just that he wasn't the right person to harness it.

Yeah but Woosha was just saying that to keep his job. I strongly believe that we would not be where we are without Simpson. He has changed the way we play as a team, and he has changed the way certain players even play the game, which has led to us wallpapering over some of our deficiencies. The word was that Woosha was ok if we didn't hit targets as long as we worked hard, and the game had changed too much for that game plan to be effective anymore. As soon as Simpson came in his emphasis has been on drilling the basics well at training, and then changing the gameplan so we played as a more cohesive unit. The results speak for themselves imo.

 

[WCE_phil]

Well i picked top 4 before the season but not top 2.

 

[jatz14]

meh.

For mine, the most damning evidence was our complete inability to match it with strong sides, and not just for a year leading up to this season, but for a number of years. That was despite an extended period of dominance in the ruck.

Using that evidence to form an opinion that this side had some serious flaws is what every punter had done - not just BF armchair experts, but the media as a whole.

That opinion didn't improve when one of our main strengths (strong KPDs) was neutralised at the beginning of this year, and we were annihilated by Fremantle (the WB game didn't bother me too much personally, as we seemed to underestimate a gun side).

The only reason anyone could have predicted our current scenario is blind faith that our side would suddenly gel, and that players like Wellingham and Sheppard would suddenly become ultra-reliable and versatile, despite being nothing but inconsistent every year prior to this.

Every single club in the competition, bar clubs deep in the throes of a rebuild, will tell their fans and the media that they think their list has the potential to go all the way. Obviously most lists don't have or fulfill that potential, and as a result one of the major sources of fuel for the BigFooty community is supporters' inherent scepticism of footy clubs' PR spin. I don't think that should come as a surprise to anyone.

But that's only because you couldn't see it. Even now, you would prefer to think they couldn't see it either, and were just blowing smoke, and this year was a complete shock. Do you have any reason to believe that other than the extreme unlikelihood that you could have been wrong?

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[Hap Hapablap]

not hard for worsfold to try to take some credit if the team is doing very well now. i wonder what he would have said if we were on the other side of the ladder.

worsfold may have got some of the talent but some of his selections and favouritism hurt the side more than anything not to mention building a midfield that could provide a decent feed to the forwards. he became too one eyed and was more inflexible as the years passed.

simpson has provided a big kick of optimism not to mention started to use players with their skills and used them to his advantage in different positions throughout the grounds a good example of that would be wellingham.

worsfold did us ok for his 12 years of service. but he had to go.

as for this season i initially saw us bottom of the top 8 but once we lost mac and brown i said bottom of the table. oh how i have been proven wrong

 

[Hardhat11]

The games changed

And it's why Paul Roos and mick Malthouse were partly faltering at their clubs ....

Hird spent a lot of time under sheeds ....and his coaching reflected that old skool philosophies that don't work

Simpson knows the games changed and rolled with it

 

[eaglespremiers]

And it's why Paul Roos and mick Malthouse were partly faltering at their clubs ....

Could just be they inherited spud lists.

 

[Marlin01]

The game has certainly changed. One strategy is no longer good enough, no matter how good it is. You have to be able to move the ball down the ground along and across all lines without the ball carrier getting isolated. You need to be able to play man-on-man and zone defense, as well as being able to implement spare man/men and you need to be able to orchestrate the change from one set up to another seamlessly. That's what makes the Hawks so good and I suspect it's why Freo may be sliding.

 

[MWPP]

The games changed

And it's why Paul Roos and mick Malthouse were partly faltering at their clubs ....

Hird spent a lot of time under sheeds ....and his coaching reflected that old skool philosophies that don't work

Simpson knows the games changed and rolled with it

Interesting comparison. Another similarity between Roos (and Eade) /Woosha is that perhaps their hearts weren't in it. The first two were brought back for $$$ . Malthouse probably did genuinely want to coach though.... (he was pushed out of Collingwood, rather than leaving on his own terms)

 

[The Dodger]

One thing that crossed my mind today was Worsfold's faith in 2013 that, despite what appeared overwhelming evidence to the contary, the playing group was capable of challenging for a flag. Off the top of my head the only players currently in the best 22 that weren't at West Coast in 2013 are Yeo, Sheed and Ellis.

With the benefit of hindsight, 2015 is arguably the natural progression form 2011/12 with 2013/14 being aberrations - 2013 due to a coach that went one year too many and lost his way taking the team down with him as he ran out of ideas and 2014 was the result of a playing group adjusting to a new inexperienced coach with new ideas and game plan that took almost a full season to start kicking into gear

Arguably Woosh was right about the quality of the playing group we had it's just that he wasn't the right person to harness it.

IIRC Worsfold was also saying "2 goes at it...one now and another in a few years".
I think its Simpson personally. Frustrating players who appeared uncommitted (Smith) that Worsfold persisted with quickly found themselves out. A player like McGovern who had been on the list for sometime immediately got given the tough love he needed to get his fitness together and was immediately rewarded with selection.
Cox & Glass were told in a round about way that their leadership wasn't good enough. Glass because he couldn't get on the field week to week, Cox (Just IMO) playing for frees and possibly eyeing off 300 for selfish reasons (possibly promoted by the club).
Selwood for continuing to play with an injury that he was lying about the true extent of it.

Then he has lost a lot of experience in Waters, Embley, ASelwood, Glass, Cox, Nicoski & Kerr but has somehow outperformed the team with them while also blooding first year players.
And its not just the new scenery (change of coach) as some players like Wellingham McGovern Sheppard almost looked like they had taken a step back when Simpson got here. So IMO its evidence of the man management he has implemented to get the best out of people.

Also with the Cox incident I believe he faced a massive up hill battle getting the club to wind down Cox slowly without hurt feelings and convincing Lycett to stay. A daunting prospect for a new coach looking at a club fav staring down a milestone that had not been achieved before. It was that situation that gave me the confidence in him.

As for the mids comment in the OP, I didn't have an issue with our other mids except Priddis. But even under Simpson in 2014 I could see what he was trying with him and it improved his offensive side immeasurably but I still had issue with his defensive side outside of stoppages. IMO it was clear he had been instructed to keep his feet and stay out of the contest if he wasn't in it in the first place. Also the handballing at all times possible as well as holding on to it absorbing pressure and not doing hot potato handballs to teammates feet had started to dry up. Also the blind snaps while still numerous were getting less and less.
This team defence that we watch now has all but rendered his inability to defend on the spread null. Apart from a few quick stoppage exists against fast teams like the Bulldogs on the weekend, which will always happen with slower inside mids the rebound off half back through where he was has dried up.
And it has lead to this where he is just one of many mids who get there hands on it regularly but his efforts seem more limited to situations that suit his strengths...at stoppages and a dinky little left footer into the F50.

In essence if you look at that experience lost over 2 years and the changes he has made to players already in the system its a major overhaul and while Worsfold can stand back and say see...I told you so the above changes required wouldn't have happened under him.

 

[Hardhat11]

Could just be they inherited spud lists.

Yes and no

Look at what Mcarthy had at bullies compared to beveridge .....

I'd like to see Paul Roos free his players up ....let them attack ...yes they would get some beltings...but atlleast they would learn the game and know how to attack

 

[SpaceClef]

But that's only because you couldn't see it. Even now, you would prefer to think they couldn't see it either, and were just blowing smoke, and this year was a complete shock. Do you have any reason to believe that other than the extreme unlikelihood that you could have been wrong?

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

Sorry I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying.

Like you said yourself, there's no way of knowing how to quantify and identify the many complex factors that contribute to a team performing well in a season. Is it coaching, is it recruitment, is it luck.

I don't know if your point is that BF posters should be chastised for saying negative things about the club and its players?

 

[ziad]

Yes and no

Look at what Mcarthy had at bullies compared to beveridge .....

I'd like to see Paul Roos free his players up ....let them attack ...yes they would get some beltings...but atlleast they would learn the game and know how to attack

Roo's very existence is based on Defence - he was lucky at Sydney to have a list of the very best big forwards the COLA could buy and this negated the impact of a defensive game plan through shear dominance at the point of the contest.

 

[placebo]

I've seen people make these sort of "Ha ha all you haters were wrong" sort of posts lately…however, what seems to be missed is that our improvement is on the back of a lot of things that the more reasoned posters (some of which were dismissed as haters) have wanted to happen and thought needed to happen for our improvement - Flexibility in the midfield, flexibility around the ground, a faster game plan that utilises our key forwards, a total revamp of our ball movement, not tapping the ball to Priddis as often when others are in better positions, an improvement in skills and decision making, and so on.

We didn't just magically improve, it was on the back of identifying and focusing on our issues (many of which posters here have recognised) and then improving them.

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

I've seen people make these sort of "Ha ha all you haters were wrong" sort of posts lately…however, what seems to be missed is that our improvement is on the back of a lot of things that the more reasoned posters (some of which were dismissed as haters) have wanted to happen and thought needed to happen for our improvement - Flexibility in the midfield, flexibility around the ground, a faster game plan that utilises our key forwards, a total revamp of our ball movement, not tapping the ball to Priddis as often when others are in better positions, an improvement in skills and decision making, and so on.

We didn't just magically improve, it was on the back of identifying and focusing on our issues (many of which posters here have recognised) and then improving them.

Completely correct.

Another thing I would add is awareness of teammates - how often do you see a guy handball accurately to a target that he could not possibly have seen was there? Our players have been very well coached on where to go to receive and how to direct other players to get the ball in the hands of the release player. We are very good at this and it is something that has been coached into them, not some kind of a natural progression that was a fait accompli.