We have a right...

[lenny&carl]

It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998

 

[Contra Mundum]

OK, so now I know why my question wasn't taken seriously, perhaps you're not all a bunch of anti-semites. I now see how you see the situation: You think that the Palestinians have a right to the land of Israel, and we stole the land from them. We are now saying 'look, we're giving back the land we stole and they keep bombing us and asking us for more!'. But that's not true. We never stole the land. We have a right to the land

The last time an international comittee agreed upon a border for the state of Israel was in 1922, by the British imperialists, who promised us that little strip we call Israel today, as well as Gaza and Jordan. This were The British White Papers which were written to clarify the 'misconceptions' of the Balfour Declaration. The only Arabs living in the Israel area were living in bedowin tents and very well scattered, moving about constantly(and still do). At this time the Jews and Arabs were rarely in conflict with each other. There was some thievery, but that was about it. However, as the British Imperialists like to do, they began the conflict between the Jews and Arabs after centuries of being united either under Christian opression or together in Arab-ruled countries. This was done when the Brits then promised some King what we call Jordan(77% of what we have a right to). The Brits merely desired to maintain their presence in Palestine. Today we have peace with Jordan. Although we have a right to that 77%, our Government saw fit to give it up for peace. What we call Jordan today was actually going to be called Palestine, but the Brits knew that this would mean that there would be no cause for Arabs who wanted to destroy Israel to fight for.
1947 was when we made it official that we had a Jewish state. The Arabs weren't happy, after decades of fighting with us as a result of the British mandate. Then came '48.
For the next ~20 years the world sided with Israel. Why? Arafat kept on talking about 'death to the Jews', 'im going to finish what Hitler started', etc. The Brits told Arafat to stop doing this, and to improve his world image by using passionate protests, and creating the PLO in 1964. Before 1964 if you asked a person what a Palestinian was they would reply 'a Jew'. There were the Palestinians(Jews, Israelis) and there were the Arabs led by Arafat who wanted to Destroy Israel. You want proof? All the literature prior to 1964 refers to Jews as Palestinians. A movie called EXODUS best illustrates this-created in 1960, they refer to Jews as 'Palestinians' and what we today would call a Palestinian 'Arabs'. When Golda Meir got up in the United Nations and said that 'there is no such thing as the Palestinian people', she was not shouted down by the world. Why not? It was a given fact. There was no Palestinian people. And there is none. It is a false cause created to destroy the state of Israel, to which we have a RIGHT to be in. This is OUR land. It was a desert before Jewish settlers began being active and started establishing cites, forests, etc. The Arabs lived in bedowin tents moving around. In 1967 the Arab countries surrounded the tiny strip called Israel. Israel struck first and regained some of its land. In May 2000, the Government was willing to give 97% of Israel for peace(everything Arafat asked for, except for 'Rite of Return', a euphimism for the destruction of the state of Israel and the stripping of the land which is rightfully ours.). What was Arafat's response? A harsher negogiation? No. Intifada of September 2000.
There is no cycle of violence. There is no such thing. There is an opressor. There is an underdog. There are 20+ Arab countries surrounding a tiny strip called Israel. Israel fits 3 times into Tasmania. When looking on a map, a fly once flew onto it and covered the entire state of Israel.

What I am saying is that Israel has a RIGHT to it's land-it never stole anything. There have been Jews living there since our forefathers. We never left there. There has always been a Jewish presence there. It has always been OUR land, and we have always had a right to it. We have a right to control it, and of course allow people of other religions to come and visit their holy sites, that is of course if they stop bombing us.

The Palestinian's passionate protests are to make you sympathise with them. The worst thing the Israeli government did was hand over the Palestinian education system to Arafat in 1993. If you talk to an Arab over the age of ~22 they are decent people. Under 20, they want to kill you. And this is the problem we are now facing. A hostile media and a hostile generation being brought up. And Iran who want us dead(as well as you). And 20 other countries which don't want us to exist. The War in Iraq has nothing to do with the War in Israel. This isn't about terrorism. This is about what we have a right to.

But Yahweh gave it to you did'nt he? Why descend to secular justifications

 

[medusala]

What I am saying is that the Templars have a RIGHT to it's land-it never stole anything. There have been Christians living there since our forefathers. They never left there. There has always been a Christian presence there. It has always been their land, and we have always had a right to it.

 

[^Eagle^]

As for nuclear weapons - Iran...Iraq don't have nuclear weapons. You will find no evidence suggesting they do. Why post lies?

And now I'm arguing with someone whose blind to what is going on in the world??? How am I expected to answer such ignorancy??

As for Iraq...I myself am not a fan of George Bush but my point was that Israel need to defend themselves. The Iranian president is claiming that the holocaust didn't happen, hes sayin the Israeli state doesn't exist, they gave $50 mil to HAMMAS who's political campaign was to destroy the Jewish state and by the way those nuclear facilities are just for power....come on only someone who refuses to give up on his belief that he is right can fall for such a ridiculously obvious revelation... Are YOU on qat?

 

[^Eagle^]

But Yahweh gave it to you did'nt he? Why descend to secular justifications

I'm not goin to deny that my belief is that HASHEM gave us this land with all my heart and soul. I am a believer. And I'm not about to openly debate religious beliefs because I believe that religious beliefs should be something which one aquires through self-introspection, not by outside influences.

Theodor Hertzl was a non-believer and the founder of the State of Israel. He saw that the Jews "depend for sustenance on the nations who are our hosts, and if we had no hosts to support us we should die of starvation" and that we need a country which protects Jews and feeds them, etc so we don't get kicked out of a country ever again. Secular arguments founded the state of Israel so why can't a believing Jew use them to defend it's rfight to exist. The Jewish State by Theodor Hertzel should change your perspective unless you are single-minded...

 

[just maybe]

And now I'm arguing with someone whose blind to what is going on in the world??? How am I expected to answer such ignorancy??

As for Iraq...I myself am not a fan of George Bush but my point was that Israel need to defend themselves. The Iranian president is claiming that the holocaust didn't happen, hes sayin the Israeli state doesn't exist, they gave $50 mil to HAMMAS who's political campaign was to destroy the Jewish state and by the way those nuclear facilities are just for power....come on only someone who refuses to give up on his belief that he is right can fall for such a ridiculously obvious revelation... Are YOU on qat?

Evidence?

 

[^Eagle^]

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/ee...07175de9fa2de563852568d3006e10f3!OpenDocument

There you go. More specifically, it refers to them as "Palestinan Arabs", but it certainly does not refer to Jews as Palestinians.

In fact, I've never heard of Jews being referred to as Palestinians, unless in a generic sense as residents of Palestine, when the term did not refer to Jews specifically.

UN and British enjoy confusing people. There is no Palestinian people. I'll be starting a new thread-if i had time i'd argue with you, but there are things to do to spread the truth about Palestine more significant then the Bigfooty board(no offence )

 

[CoggaRules]

UN and British enjoy confusing people. There is no Palestinian people. I'll be starting a new thread-if i had time i'd argue with you, but there are things to do to spread the truth about Palestine more significant then the Bigfooty board(no offence )

hey eagle, if i was you i would be telling the boss to stop. Its doing wonders for your PR man. Believe me, Israel is beginning to look ridiuculous with this episode. They jsut bombed a house man, killing a mother that was just another person.
I would even say, you guys are wlaking into a very well layed PR trap.

 

[Contra Mundum]

I'm not goin to deny that my belief is that HASHEM gave us this land with all my heart and soul. I am a believer. And I'm not about to openly debate religious beliefs because I believe that religious beliefs should be something which one aquires through self-introspection, not by outside influences.

Theodor Hertzl was a non-believer and the founder of the State of Israel. He saw that the Jews "depend for sustenance on the nations who are our hosts, and if we had no hosts to support us we should die of starvation" and that we need a country which protects Jews and feeds them, etc so we don't get kicked out of a country ever again. Secular arguments founded the state of Israel so why can't a believing Jew use them to defend it's rfight to exist. The Jewish State by Theodor Hertzel should change your perspective unless you are single-minded...

Religious Zionism would have revolted Theodor Hertzl

 

[MSR273]

I'm not goin to deny that my belief is that HASHEM gave us this land with all my heart and soul. I am a believer. And I'm not about to openly debate religious beliefs because I believe that religious beliefs should be something which one aquires through self-introspection, not by outside influences.

Mate, get a grip on reality. You obtained you beliefs from outside influences, get over the self-introspection crap.

I will bet you were brought up as a Jew and have been brainwashed since birth by "outside influences"

People like you with your self indulgent BS are the reason this situation goes on and on and on and on....

 

[Flag Man]

There is no Palestinian people.

Interesting.

Please outline a timeline of Jewish bloodline lineage, occupying Israel, that goes back before the 1940's?

Ashkenazi boy.

 

[Flag Man]

I'm not goin to deny that my belief is that HASHEM gave us this land with all my heart and soul. I am a believer. And I'm not about to openly debate religious beliefs because I believe that religious beliefs should be something which one aquires through self-introspection, not by outside influences.

Theodor Hertzl was a non-believer and the founder of the State of Israel. He saw that the Jews "depend for sustenance on the nations who are our hosts, and if we had no hosts to support us we should die of starvation" and that we need a country which protects Jews and feeds them, etc so we don't get kicked out of a country ever again. Secular arguments founded the state of Israel so why can't a believing Jew use them to defend it's rfight to exist. The Jewish State by Theodor Hertzel should change your perspective unless you are single-minded...

Hilarious.

Hertzl organised for the state of Israel to be formed in UGANDA, AFRICA.

The sixth congress of his "World Zionist Congress" voted 295 to 175 in favor of the idea.

In the end his work was hijacked by Russian Talmudic interests.

One year later he was dead at age 44. Weizmann took the reins, the Ugandan concept was thrown out and the Palestinian problem arose.

Palestine was NEVER Hertzl's idea.

The only Jewish inhabitants of Palestine were actually IN FAVOR OF A REMOVAL TO UGANDA!

"It was a degrading and distressing sight to see all the people who had been the first to build up the Jewish Palestine of that day, publicly denying and repudiating their own past. In the community centres of the first alliance Israelite schools denounced Palestine as a land of corpses and grave, a land of malaria and eye-diseases, a land which destroys its inhabitants." - World Zionist Organization, Tel Aviv, 1945.

 

[GuruJane]

Hilarious.

Hertzl organised for the state of Israel to be formed in UGANDA, AFRICA.

The sixth congress of his "World Zionist Congress" voted 295 to 175 in favor of the idea.

In the end his work was hijacked by Russian Talmudic interests.

One year later he was dead at age 44. Weizmann took the reins, the Ugandan concept was thrown out and the Palestinian problem arose.

Palestine was NEVER Hertzl's idea.

The only Jewish inhabitants of Palestine were actually IN FAVOR OF A REMOVAL TO UGANDA!

"It was a degrading and distressing sight to see all the people who had been the first to build up the Jewish Palestine of that day, publicly denying and repudiating their own past. In the community centres of the first alliance Israelite schools denounced Palestine as a land of corpses and grave, a land of malaria and eye-diseases, a land which destroys its inhabitants." - World Zionist Organization, Tel Aviv, 1945.

In the 1930s, there was also a strong movement for a Jewish State to be founded in Western Australia.

Uganda - WA - was never going to fly, no matter how desperate the Zionist leaders were for a solution to the seemingly endless persecution of the Jews.

Their only legitimate claim, the only claim that was ever going to get international support, was to their ancestral home - what is now Eretz Israel - a very small notch of Arab world.

 

[medusala]

Their only legitimate claim, the only claim that was ever going to get international support, was to their ancestral home - what is now Eretz Israel - a very small notch of Arab world.

How is it the ancestral home of ashkenazis?

As for being "a very small notch" of the Arab world, how do you think people would react if it was decided to stop the "seemingly endless persecution" of gypies by giving them somewhere like Moldova? It would never fly.

They have no legitimate claim whatsoever. There are people with far better claims than them. Yet others have long since relinquished such claims.

 

[Flag Man]

In the 1930s, there was also a strong movement for a Jewish State to be founded in Western Australia.

Uganda - WA - was never going to fly, no matter how desperate the Zionist leaders were for a solution to the seemingly endless persecution of the Jews.

Their only legitimate claim, the only claim that was ever going to get international support, was to their ancestral home - what is now Eretz Israel - a very small notch of Arab world.

Seemingly?

I prefer the noun:

Seemingly - (noun) Outward appearance; semblance.

Definitely wasn't going to fly after Ashkenazi Talmudic interests hijacked the W.Z.O.

I wonder how Zionist interests, a misrepresentative political gang, managed to get the greatest empire in history to give away it's occupied lands.

Anyway, just pointing out to our propagandized friend, that Hertzl and Palestine have little in common.

 

[GuruJane]

How is it the ancestral home of ashkenazis?

As for being "a very small notch" of the Arab world, how do you think people would react if it was decided to stop the "seemingly endless persecution" of gypies by giving them somewhere like Moldova? It would never fly.

Can you show me historical evidence of where the gypsies have kept a continuous religious and cultural association with Moldavia for nearly 4000 years and a yearning for return expressed in their Saturday prayers for the last 2000 years?

If you can, then of course one could agree that the gypsies of Moldavia have a legitimate claim to a homeland or a state there.

They have no legitimate claim whatsoever. There are people with far better claims than them. Yet others have long since relinquished such claims.

Unfortunately they DID have a legimate claim. Which is different than saying that their claim deserved to be met, Meds! But nevertheless, a legitimate claim they had. Israel was their ancestral land and the Jews had had a continuous connection to it for nearly 4K years. Anybody who knows the history of the Jews can see why it was taken seriously in the climate of the day.

Apart from anything else, it was such a tiny proportion of the huge landmass where the states of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia where established for the Arabs after the fall of the moribund Ottoman Empire. To that extent, an argument of "fairness" was also applied - and endorsed by the League of Nations after WW1.

 

[Mr Q]

UN and British enjoy confusing people. There is no Palestinian people. I'll be starting a new thread-if i had time i'd argue with you, but there are things to do to spread the truth about Palestine more significant then the Bigfooty board(no offence )

You asked for evidence, then when you get it, you dismiss it. Despite the fact that the evidence comes from the only place that gives a veneer of legitimacy to the state of Israel.

In the 1930s, there was also a strong movement for a Jewish State to be founded in Western Australia.

Well at least WA would have been an area where there was available room. However if they'd tried to marginalise the locals in the same way they have in Palestine, then I dare say that West Australians (say like my grandparents) would have resisted their occupation.

Uganda - WA - was never going to fly, no matter how desperate the Zionist leaders were for a solution to the seemingly endless persecution of the Jews.

Their only legitimate claim, the only claim that was ever going to get international support, was to their ancestral home - what is now Eretz Israel - a very small notch of Arab world.

Ha. And Israel flew *so* well, didn't it. Because the locals were just so open to having people come in and take over the land.

You sicken me Jane. That you can justify an invading group coming in and forcing the existing population off the land (and ^Eagle^ - Palestine was most definitely NOT empty when Israel was formed - there were about half a million Arabs living there in 1900 - and less than 5,000 Jews)

As for "ancestral land", what a load of complete and utter **** that is. I come from good Irish stock, and I wouldn't presume to imagine I have a right to just up and live in Ireland because of it - the Irish government wouldn't allow me to anyway as I don't have any *recent* Irish ancestry (in the last two generations). Or perhaps in Germany where my Celtic ancestors originate from.

 

[GuruJane]

Religious Zionism would have revolted Theodor Hertzl

As it did the majority of the early Zionists.

Unfortunately religious Zionism gained traction after the 1973 Arab War on Israel that brought the old Irginites into power for the first time in Israel's history - leading directly to the settlements policy - which in turn led to the rise of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

The Israelis have now abandoned the settlements and "Greater Israel" so what is happening now is the logical "last stand" of the Jihadists in response. The "occupation" is what feeds the Jihadists. Once it was removed from Gaza, it seems the Jihadists felt they had to get it back.

Personally I think they would have been better advised to have pocketed Gaza gratefully (what an unexpected bonus!) kept Gaza completely quiet and instead run their rocket attacks from the West Bank into Israel or the WB settlements.

But religious fanatics don't know much about strategy!

 

[GuruJane]

As for "ancestral land", what a load of complete and utter **** that is. I come from good Irish stock, and I wouldn't presume to imagine I have a right to just up and live in Ireland because of it - the Irish government wouldn't allow me to anyway as I don't have any *recent* Irish ancestry (in the last two generations). Or perhaps in Germany where my Celtic ancestors originate from.

I've asked you before - please provide the evidence that the Celts as a people have maintained continuous religious and cultural connection to Germany for the last 2000 years - incorporate a yearning for "Return to Bavaria" in their prayers?

Ireland is a nation state. If the Irish in the diaspora were being persecuted and threatened with annihilation as the Jews were in the late 19th and 20th centuries, then Ireland would have been available to give them a haven. And would have done so.

Unlike the Irish, the Jews didn't have a nation state and they demonstrably needed the protection of one.

Thank you for the Irish example - it rather proves the point.

 

[skilts]

Israel was their ancestral land and the Jews had had a continuous connection to it for nearly 4K years. Anybody who knows the history of the Jews can see why it was taken seriously in the climate of the day.QUOTE]

Hmm, 4,000 years eh? Who occupied the land before then Jane? By what method did the Jews gain control of it, and under what pretext? Whatever happened to the previous occupants?

 

[GuruJane]

Israel was their ancestral land and the Jews had had a continuous connection to it for nearly 4K years. Anybody who knows the history of the Jews can see why it was taken seriously in the climate of the day.QUOTE]

Hmm, 4,000 years eh? Who occupied the land before then Jane? By what method did the Jews gain control of it, and under what pretext? Whatever happened to the previous occupants?

Hard to say. Whoever they were they're not still around today, unlike the Jews who are very much with us..

 

[Mr Q]

I've asked you before - please provide the evidence that the Celts as a people have maintained continuous religious and cultural connection to Germany for the last 2000 years - incorporate a yearning for "Return to Bavaria" in their prayers?

They haven't. But the pure idiocy you're spouting can be cut off by asking one simple question: why should the majority people - well over 90% - be required to vacate land for the Jews based upon Jewish religious principles when they're not actually believers in the Jewish faith?

Why should Judaism overrule the secular civil rights of non-Jewish people resident in Palestine? (Hint: the simple answer is that it shouldn't).

On a secular basis, this right to return to the "Holy Land" is based upon texts that show that Jews were present in Palestine millennia ago. Well whoop-de-bloody-do. That's no different to the Celts wanting Germany or Swizerland, or any other group wanting automatic right of return to some distant ancestral land.

Ireland is a nation state. If the Irish in the diaspora were being persecuted and threatened with annihilation as the Jews were in the late 19th and 20th centuries, then Ireland would have been available to give them a haven. And would have done so.

My family was driven out of Ireland by British persecution prior to Irish independance. However, I can prove a current connection to Ireland in that I have relatives (albeit fairly distant ones now) that live and have always lived in Ireland.

However, I am not permitted, despite a long history of Irish ancestry to live in Ireland. The Irish diaspora - as dramatic a one as any - doesn't permit some sort of nebulous right to return to Ireland.

Unlike the Irish, the Jews didn't have a nation state and they demonstrably needed the protection of one.

Yet you haven't once answered the simple question of why they should be granted a particular tract of land at the expense of people already living there...

Thank you for the Irish example - it rather proves the point.

How? The members of the Irish Diaspora don't have the right to return to Ireland freely as little as 100 years later (my last ancestor resident in Ireland left County Meath in 1906).

 

[Contra Mundum]

Terra Nullius Board

 

[GuruJane]

They haven't. But the pure idiocy you're spouting can be cut off by asking one simple question: why should the majority people - well over 90% - be required to vacate land for the Jews based upon Jewish religious principles when they're not actually believers in the Jewish faith?

Why should Judaism overrule the secular civil rights of non-Jewish people resident in Palestine? (Hint: the simple answer is that it shouldn't).

On a secular basis, this right to return to the "Holy Land" is based upon texts that show that Jews were present in Palestine millennia ago. Well whoop-de-bloody-do.

You appear to be totally ignorant of Jewish history. Wilfully so? Deliberately so?

That's no different to the Celts wanting Germany or Swizerland, or any other group wanting automatic right of return to some distant ancestral land.

Again. Please demonstrate where the Celts have kept a religious and cultural tradition with Germany and Switzerland for 2000 years?

My family was driven out of Ireland by British persecution prior to Irish independance. However, I can prove a current connection to Ireland in that I have relatives (albeit fairly distant ones now) that live and have always lived in Ireland.

Were they "driven" out like you say the Palestinians were and then not allowed to return home?

Or were they forced out by the dire economic conditions created by British policies?

If the first, your argument might have some relevance. If the second, then clearly your great grandparents, grandparents and possibly even your own parents would have been able to return to Ireland had they so chosen at any time.

However, I am not permitted, despite a long history of Irish ancestry to live in Ireland. The Irish diaspora - as dramatic a one as any - doesn't permit some sort of nebulous right to return to Ireland.

Well my point was that in the (admittedly unlikely) event that the rest of the world start racially pursuing you and others just for being Irish, then there would be a nation state available to give you haven. They would relax their immigration requirements, would they not?

But that's the difference between you and the Jews. They didn't have a nation state.

Yet you haven't once answered the simple question of why they should be granted a particular tract of land at the expense of people already living there...

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that they had a legitimate claim. It happens that many people believe that claim should not have been met. I happen to believe it was right in the circumstances of the time, when there were no nation states in that area. As it turns out, the League of Nations, and then 25 years later the United Nations voted to endorse their claim.

You on the other hand argue they had no legitimate claim at all, and you appear to use your ignorance of Jewish history in support of your argument.

How? The members of the Irish Diaspora don't have the right to return to Ireland freely as little as 100 years later (my last ancestor resident in Ireland left County Meath in 1906).

Again. One would expect under extreme circumstances of persecution and threatened annihilation the Irish Govt would relax its immigration requirements in order to give protection to people of Irish background? Not much of a govt if it didn't, surely.

All the Jews asked for was a tiny nation state in its ancestral land at a time a huge landmass was being divided into states from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Their claim was recognised by both the League of Nations and the United Nations.

There they are and there they stay. A sovereign state entitled to all the rights shared by sovereign states.

And ever since Israel was established it has taken in persecuted Jews from USSR, Eastern Europe to Africa and given them dignity and sanctuary.

 

[John]

You appear to be totally ignorant of Jewish history.

GuruJane what is your opionion of Arthur Koestler and his book The Thirteenth Tribe?