Covid-19 Welcome to Freedom

[Hoops]

This is where things don't really make sense. Vaccinated people spread and catch covid. Although at a lesser rate than the unvaccinated, it still happens. Vaccination is not the panacea.

People wearing seatbelts die in car accidents.......

 

[owen87]

You get that sample size is way too small to provide you with any useful information right?

im guessing your vaccinated friends also have more freedoms to interact with other people and catch the virus as well.

I find it funny how unvaccinated people somehow always seem to have experiences that don't match the reality of the majority of the rest of the population.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

People wearing seatbelts die in car accidents.......

Don't mention that, they might find that its not compulsory to wear a seatbelt in New Hampshire....because...Freedom and stuff.

 

[Opine]

100 Euros (150 aud) a month for over 60s in greece.

austria has also just announced a 3600 euro fine for the unvaccinated.

That is not an insignificant amount; potentially more significant for some of the elderly if refusal is ongoing. It’s sad.

 

[Opine]

Getting my booster next week.

me 2

 

[Crankyhawk]

Is this the main basis for the recommendation by the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) for children as young as 5 be vaccinated?

ATAGI approval was based on the results of a single trial. Three of the 1305 participants on the vaccine tested positive; whereas 16 of the 663 participants on the placebo tested positive. 16 children on the placebo developed a fever, while the three children on the vaccine did not. There were no cases of severe COVID-19 in either group.​

​

ATAGI stated that the trial was insufficiently powered to assess the risk of myocarditis. And that “The risk of myocarditis or pericarditis after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in children aged 5-11 years is not yet known…”​

​

Also - “Vaccine effectiveness data from real world experience are not yet available for children 5-11 years”​

​

Also - “Clinical trials were conducted prior to the emergence of the Omicron variant and the results reflect efficacy against older strains of SARS-COV-2.”​

So, based on ATAGI data

• the trials showed there were no cases of severe Covid-19 in non-vaccinated children.
• we don't know the risks of myocarditis or pericarditis from the vaccines in children.
• we don't know the efficacy of the vaccines for either the current main variant or older strains in children.

Did it come down to this?

reduced transmission of SARS CoV-2 among children may lead to lower SARS-CoV-2 incidence in all age groups … reducing COVID-19 hospitalisations, ICU admissions and deaths in the overall population.​

yes, thats what I am also thinking. (the last line you mention). I don't think it has been about benefit to the child directly (that said I am keen to get my 11 year old done).

edit and it would also shorten any quarantine period should she be unlucky enough to come into contact, and will likely be required in order to travel.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Bioethicists often refer to the four basic principles of health care ethics when evaluating the merits and difficulties of medical procedures. Ideally, for a medical practice to be considered "ethical", it must respect all four of these principles: autonomy, justice, beneficence, and non-maleficence.​

​

Beneficence - requires that the procedure be provided with the intent of doing good for the patient involved.​

​

Non-maleficence - requires that a procedure does not harm the patient involved or others in society.​

Of course, you should be able to choose to have your child vaccinated if you wish it. But I reckon ATAGI recommending vaccination of children for Covid-19 fails both the above criteria. We know that Covid-19 is very low risk to children. We don't know the efficacy of the vaccines for either the current main variant or older strains in children. We don't know the short term risks of myocarditis or pericarditis. We don't know the long term risk caused by original antigenic sin or antibody dependent enhancement.

In short, we shouldn't be putting children at risk to protect the lives of the sick and elderly, especially when we are told that the vaccines are highly effective at protecting those people.

ii think these risks are only significant if you want them to be significant. They really arent.

 

[pc79]

Kids don't need the vaccine full stop.

Whether there is a consideration they might be grubby little super spreaders, the vaccine should be taken by those who feel they personally need protection.

There are not enough longitudinal studies surrounding short, medium and long term health effects. We're told it's safe, but is it, really? Who knows. We'll find out in time.

Why you'd want your 11 year old vaccinated (pre puberty) before more studies and information becomes available is nuts IMO.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Kids don't need the vaccine full stop.

Whether there is a consideration they might be grubby little super spreaders, the vaccine should be taken by those who feel they personally need protection.

There are not enough longitudinal studies surrounding short, medium and long term health effects. We're told it's safe, but is it, really? Who knows. We'll find out in time.

Why you'd want your 11 year old vaccinated (pre puberty) before more studies and information becomes available is nuts IMO.

What are your sources? The TGA have a pretty good track record.
Ohhh PC789 says full stop, he must be smarter than the TGA.

You've been reading the "causes sterility " crap right? Why is it crap, because someone made the whole thing up.
Q: Why , how , could it cause sterility?

Just because you don't know , doesn't mean others don't know.
You also don't know if the wire holding the elevator up is strong enough.

 

[Chief]

So, based on ATAGI data

• the trials showed there were no cases of severe Covid-19 in non-vaccinated children.
• we don't know the risks of myocarditis or pericarditis from the vaccines in children.

Why do you think the trial was sufficient to show that severe Covid cases won’t show up in a larger group, but that heart problems might?

Wouldn’t you look to England where severe cases ARE showing up now school has reopened?

 

[Crankyhawk]

The other two principles of health care ethics

Autonomy - requires that the patient have autonomy of thought, intention, and action when making decisions regarding health care procedures. Therefore, the decision-making process must be free of coercion or coaxing.​

​

Clearly the vaccine mandates breach this principle. If someone if faced with with losing their source of income and ability to participate in normal society it is not a health decision free of coercion or coaxing.

Justice

The idea that the burdens and benefits of new or experimental treatments must be distributed equally among all groups in society.​

Some countries are now mandating 3rd or even 4th booster shots when some poorer countries have very low 1st doses.

Ethics smethics
Beneficence is also viewed over a whole community
Therefore unethical to be a dick and not get vaccinated

Go and get a jab.

 

[Seeds]

Ii would be funny if it wasn't true.

Prof. Arnon Afek, the deputy director of the Sheba Medical Center, said on Monday that a fourth vaccine dose appears to be an inevitability.​

​

Afek said he hopes that such COVID mutations won’t be as contagious and severe as the Delta variant, “but it seems that we will need to take a fourth, and fifth and sixth and seventh doses — who knows how many. But it’s fine, we’re lucky we have them, not every country in the world has vaccines.”​

Fourth COVID shot for all Israelis a possibility, health minister says

Statement comes as top health officials set to hold debate on approving fourth dose for those with compromised immune systems

www.timesofisrael.com

We take them to the virus disapears or becomes a minor thing. Thats the end point. Its not infinite.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Seems a bit like they are chasing their tail. The vaccine makers are still testing "tweaked" versions of their vaccines designed to be more effective against Delta/Beta.

To me , Omicron could mean.

1: That it will become the dominant strain, and that Delta etc all but die out, and its milder, so it really fixes everything like a natural vaccine.

2: That it will become the dominant strain, and that its just as bad as the others, but the Vaccines don't work as well.

3: That its so different to the Delta variant that your immune system sees them as different, and we get to catch both.

4: Any of the shades of grey between the previous 3 options.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Kids don't need the vaccine full stop.

Whether there is a consideration they might be grubby little super spreaders, the vaccine should be taken by those who feel they personally need protection.

There are not enough longitudinal studies surrounding short, medium and long term health effects. We're told it's safe, but is it, really? Who knows. We'll find out in time.

Why you'd want your 11 year old vaccinated (pre puberty) before more studies and information becomes available is nuts IMO.

Cbf waiting. No study of significance will come out in the next 9 months.

 

[BEaston]

So the unvaccinated had 1.5 people out of 10,000 in ICU, and the vaccinated 1 per 100,000. Either way, these are both ridiculously small numbers (and generally in the >70 age group). Can we move on yet?

Despite numbers seemingly (and reportedly) increasing in the UK, the actual hospilisation and death rates both continue to fall.

uhhh. I think you moved a decimal point there mate.

 

[Seeds]

Kids don't need the vaccine full stop.

Whether there is a consideration they might be grubby little super spreaders, the vaccine should be taken by those who feel they personally need protection.

There are not enough longitudinal studies surrounding short, medium and long term health effects. We're told it's safe, but is it, really? Who knows. We'll find out in time.

Why you'd want your 11 year old vaccinated (pre puberty) before more studies and information becomes available is nuts IMO.

Thats just idiotic.

we live in a society ffs. Not individual bubbles.

my kids are getting vaccinated on the first day they are allowed. For the benefit of the people which ultimatley is to the benefit of them.

 

[Seeds]

The other two principles of health care ethics

Autonomy - requires that the patient have autonomy of thought, intention, and action when making decisions regarding health care procedures. Therefore, the decision-making process must be free of coercion or coaxing.​

​

Clearly the vaccine mandates breach this principle. If someone if faced with with losing their source of income and ability to participate in normal society it is not a health decision free of coercion or coaxing.

Justice

The idea that the burdens and benefits of new or experimental treatments must be distributed equally among all groups in society.​

Some countries are now mandating 3rd or even 4th booster shots when some poorer countries have very low 1st doses.

those dont apply during a major pandemic. Bodies become weopans during a pandemic so these no longer Apply.

 

[pc79]

Seems a bit like they are chasing their tail. The vaccine makers are still testing "tweaked" versions of their vaccines designed to be more effective against Delta/Beta.

To me , Omicron could mean.

1: That it will become the dominant strain, and that Delta etc all but die out, and its milder, so it really fixes everything like a natural vaccine.

2: That it will become the dominant strain, and that its just as bad as the others, but the Vaccines don't work as well.

3: That its so different to the Delta variant that your immune system sees them as different, and we get to catch both.

4: Any of the shades of grey between the previous 3 options.

A little bit of everything -
1: it will become dominant as it is more contagious, however it is more mild (according to early South African evidence)
2: the vaccines won't/don't work as well (see below)
3: everyone will eventually catch a version of COVID, (vaccinated, or unvaccinated) that had a genesis of either Delta, Omicron, or both.

Those that are vaccinated against Delta will only have mild protection against omicron which does not carry the spike protein the vaccination is supposed to guard against. It has mutated around the vaccine.

If evidence coming out of South Africa is anything to go by, omicron is a more contagious, but far milder version. This could be due to poor vaccination take up/availability in Sth Africa and natural infection/immunity going some way to protecting against more severe symptoms. It could be that it's summer in South Africa so sunshine and a general healthier/outdoor lifestyle supports a more robust immune systems. Or, that omicron is not actually the doom and gloom end of the world variant that news reporters/government are running with.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the UK during winter with high vaccine take ups and omicron spreading. Government is doubling down on the booster roll out instead of perhaps suggesting alternative preventative strategies.

The death/hospitalisation rates in the UK are overstated. You break your arm, and are positive asymptomatic but end up in hospital, you're a hospitalised covid stat. If you die after a car accident 26 days after testing positive, you're included as a covid death. These inflated stats coupled with the alarmist language of government and media could be considered persuasive so the population obey the narrative. I know I certainly did when COVID first hit the newswires.

Most deaths reported are those dying WITH COVID, not OF covid, and the majority of the deaths/hospitalised have multiple co morbidities before contracting the virus.

Current hospitalisation rate in the UK based on the 28 day rolling average is: 9/1,000 (0.90%) https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
Current death rate in the UK based on the 28 day rolling average is 1.2/1,000 (0.12%)
These figures will be far less when considering the non tested/asymptomatic cases, OR hospitalisations solely due to covid, not due to another reason but patient has covid/contracts covid in hospital.

Compare the above to the 2017/18 flu season in the US https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm#table1
41,043,550 symptomatic cases, 710,572 hospitalisations, 51,646 deaths
hospitalisation rate - 17.3/1000
death rate - 1.25/1000

The numbers don't support a forced, coerced or mandatory vaccination line.

 

[Chief]

You break your arm, and are positive asymptomatic but end up in hospital, you're a hospitalised covid stat.

Really? Where was this reported?

 

[pc79]

Really? Where was this reported?

The stats are reported as 'Hospitalisations involving COVID 19', not due to.
"The headline published numbers in publications to date have been “inpatients with confirmed Covid” without differentiating between those in hospital “for” Covid and those in hospital “with” Covid." from the NHS statistics website.

There's also a nice little caveat on BBC news in small font that states. "Deaths for ANY reason within 28 days of a positive result" as a part of their daily death rates.

With this in mind, I am taking everything in relation to the numbers I hear through the media with a grain of salt.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

A little bit of everything -
1: it will become dominant as it is more contagious, however it is more mild (according to early South African evidence)
2: the vaccines won't/don't work as well (see below)
3: everyone will eventually catch a version of COVID, (vaccinated, or unvaccinated) that had a genesis of either Delta, Omicron, or both.

Those that are vaccinated against Delta will only have mild protection against omicron which does not carry the spike protein the vaccination is supposed to guard against. It has mutated around the vaccine.

If evidence coming out of South Africa is anything to go by, omicron is a more contagious, but far milder version. This could be due to poor vaccination take up/availability in Sth Africa and natural infection/immunity going some way to protecting against more severe symptoms. It could be that it's summer in South Africa so sunshine and a general healthier/outdoor lifestyle supports a more robust immune systems. Or, that omicron is not actually the doom and gloom end of the world variant that news reporters/government are running with.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the UK during winter with high vaccine take ups and omicron spreading. Government is doubling down on the booster roll out instead of perhaps suggesting alternative preventative strategies.

The death/hospitalisation rates in the UK are overstated. You break your arm, and are positive asymptomatic but end up in hospital, you're a hospitalised covid stat. If you die after a car accident 26 days after testing positive, you're included as a covid death. These inflated stats coupled with the alarmist language of government and media could be considered persuasive so the population obey the narrative. I know I certainly did when COVID first hit the newswires.

Most deaths reported are those dying WITH COVID, not OF covid, and the majority of the deaths/hospitalised have multiple co morbidities before contracting the virus.

Current hospitalisation rate in the UK based on the 28 day rolling average is: 9/1,000 (0.90%) https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
Current death rate in the UK based on the 28 day rolling average is 1.2/1,000 (0.12%)
These figures will be far less when considering the non tested/asymptomatic cases, OR hospitalisations solely due to covid, not due to another reason but patient has covid/contracts covid in hospital.

Compare the above to the 2017/18 flu season in the US https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm#table1
41,043,550 symptomatic cases, 710,572 hospitalisations, 51,646 deaths
hospitalisation rate - 17.3/1000
death rate - 1.25/1000

The numbers don't support a forced, coerced or mandatory vaccination line.

"most deaths are those dying with covid"?
Prove it.
You deduced it Watson, but that doesn't mean you are right.
Your statistics are at least as dubious as any others.
Your opinion doesn't support going against the official vaccination line.
They have more credibility than you do.

 

[pc79]

"most deaths are those dying with covid"?
Prove it.
You deduced it Watson, but that doesn't mean you are right.
Your statistics are at least as dubious as any others. *taken directly from the UK Governments' coronavirus website https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/, calculated in the same vein as they bandy about the death rates/hospitalisation rates (within 28 days).
Your opinion doesn't support going against the official vaccination line.
They have more credibility than you do.

how many research pieces, or pieces of statistical evidence would you like me to include in my response?

 

[Seeds]

A little bit of everything -
1: it will become dominant as it is more contagious, however it is more mild (according to early South African evidence)
2: the vaccines won't/don't work as well (see below)
3: everyone will eventually catch a version of COVID, (vaccinated, or unvaccinated) that had a genesis of either Delta, Omicron, or both.

Those that are vaccinated against Delta will only have mild protection against omicron which does not carry the spike protein the vaccination is supposed to guard against. It has mutated around the vaccine.

If evidence coming out of South Africa is anything to go by, omicron is a more contagious, but far milder version. This could be due to poor vaccination take up/availability in Sth Africa and natural infection/immunity going some way to protecting against more severe symptoms. It could be that it's summer in South Africa so sunshine and a general healthier/outdoor lifestyle supports a more robust immune systems. Or, that omicron is not actually the doom and gloom end of the world variant that news reporters/government are running with.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the UK during winter with high vaccine take ups and omicron spreading. Government is doubling down on the booster roll out instead of perhaps suggesting alternative preventative strategies.

The death/hospitalisation rates in the UK are overstated. You break your arm, and are positive asymptomatic but end up in hospital, you're a hospitalised covid stat. If you die after a car accident 26 days after testing positive, you're included as a covid death. These inflated stats coupled with the alarmist language of government and media could be considered persuasive so the population obey the narrative. I know I certainly did when COVID first hit the newswires.

Most deaths reported are those dying WITH COVID, not OF covid, and the majority of the deaths/hospitalised have multiple co morbidities before contracting the virus.

Current hospitalisation rate in the UK based on the 28 day rolling average is: 9/1,000 (0.90%) https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
Current death rate in the UK based on the 28 day rolling average is 1.2/1,000 (0.12%)
These figures will be far less when considering the non tested/asymptomatic cases, OR hospitalisations solely due to covid, not due to another reason but patient has covid/contracts covid in hospital.

Compare the above to the 2017/18 flu season in the US https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm#table1
41,043,550 symptomatic cases, 710,572 hospitalisations, 51,646 deaths
hospitalisation rate - 17.3/1000
death rate - 1.25/1000

The numbers don't support a forced, coerced or mandatory vaccination line.

Most deaths are with covid. Not of covid. Where do you get that from?

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

Queensland mayor now telling it like it is. Its not a choice to get vaccinated. Its your duty.


You are forcing constriants on your fellow citizens if you do not get vaccinated who will have to go back into lockdown.

the unvaccinated are denying others their human rights. This must stop.

 

[CM86]

I'm still waiting for the rationale for vaccine mandates to be explained. [/URL]

No you're not.
You're desperately avoiding it.

You've had almost everything explained to you with incredible clarity.
You ignore it, and repeat lies.