Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[Matchu]

You were lamenting the fact the Crows didn't get the likes of Kernaham, Bradley, Carey (dubious as he had as much of a pull to NSW), Platten, Jarman (who you did get in the end) and Wanganeen (who came home to Port) but which big names stars did we miss out on?

Have a look at the list above and the players we missed out on (Buckenara, Rioli, Hardie, Peake) and you will see we didn't exactly get the cream of the crop either.

I only cleared up what happened to the '86 WA state team to show the WAFL 'raid' wasn't quite what some are implying it was. I never suggested the '87 Eagles team was a state team.

You're failing to make the distinction between the inaugural '87 Eagles team and their premiership teams in the early 90s. Take another look at the title of this thread and you'll see I was asking if the early 90s Eagles teams were league equivalent of a state team. Tell me, how many WA superstars didn't play for the Eagles in 1992?

 

[Happy Mastenator]

West coast would probably go close to having 10 players in a WA state of origin team right now...

Eric Mckenzie
McGovern
Sheppard
Yeo
Masten
JK
Wellingham
Priddis
Jetta
LeCras
Nic Nat
Darling

Would all have reasonable claims to make the team.

 

[Allan Shorty]

Is there documentary evidence that Bewick, Wilson et al were lied to re prospects of a wa team? Or have they even said as much in interviews? I'm not doubting it could have happened.

 

[Matchu]

West coast would probably go close to having 10 players in a WA state of origin team right now...

Eric Mckenzie
McGovern
Sheppard
Yeo
Masten
JK
Wellingham
Priddis
Jetta
LeCras
Nic Nat
Darling

Would all have reasonable claims to make the team.

It's not just the quantity, it's the quality as well. Notable players not playing for Fremantle or West Coast in a hypothetical 2016 WA state team would include Lance Franklin (All-Australian), Alex Rance (All-Australian), Cale Hooker, Harry Taylor, Jesse Hogan, Bradley Hill, Patrick Cripps and Jaeger O'Meara.

 

[kane249]

Is there documentary evidence that Bewick, Wilson et al were lied to re prospects of a wa team? Or have they even said as much in interviews? I'm not doubting it could have happened.

 

[Kwality]

I only cleared up what happened to the '86 WA state team to show the WAFL 'raid' wasn't quite what some are implying it was. I never suggested the '87 Eagles team was a state team.

You're failing to make the distinction between the inaugural '87 Eagles team and their premiership teams in the early 90s. Take another look at the title of this thread and you'll see I was asking if the early 90s Eagles teams were league equivalent of a state team. Tell me, how many WA superstars didn't play for the Eagles in 1992?

You made it very clear Matchu, in my case living in Melbourne, here its more like a blanket statement covering 87 - 95.

I never suggested the '87 Eagles team was a state team

 

[Matchu]

You made it very clear Matchu, in my case living in Melbourne, here its more like a blanket statement covering 87 - 95.

I never suggested the '87 Eagles team was a state team

No worries. If you split the first eight years of their existence, anyone can see there is a huge difference between 1987-90 and 1991-1994 when it comes to possessing WA's best talent.

 

[Kwality]

In addition many underestimate how good Jako was before he did his knee at the end of 95, so attacking. Not the same footballer again, damn good, not the dominant champion he was.

 

[Matchu]

Other notable West Coast signings from the '86 WAFL crop were Dwayne Lamb, Chris Lewis, Chris Mainwaring and John Worsfold.

And just so it's absolutely clear and all the facts are on the table, the Eagles were given exclusive access to WAFL players at the 1987 draft which allowed them to pick up these players:

Kevin Caton - Swan Districts (1 game for the Eagles)
Joe Cormack - Swan Districts (1 game for the Eagles)
Brent Hutton - Swan Districts (13 games for the Eagles)
Karl Langdon - Subiaco (100 games for the Eagles)
Guy McKenna - Claremont (267 games for the Eagles)
David O'Connell - Claremont (27 games for the Eagles)
Troy Ugle - Swan Districts (43 games for the Eagles)
Chris Waterman - East Fremantle (177 games for the Eagles)

• Players in bold played over 100 games for the Eagles.

Then in 1988 they lost their exclusive access to WAFL players but they were allowed to expand their list size and were permitted 5 pre-draft WAFL selections which resulted in them picking up these players:

Stevan Jackson - South Fremantle (38 games for the Eagles)
Don Pyke - Claremont (132 games for the Eagles)
Peter Sumich - South Fremantle (150 games for the Eagles)
Craig Turley - West Perth (115 games for the Eagles)
Scott Watters - South Fremantle (46 games for the Eagles)

In 1989 they were permitted 2 pre-draft WAFL selections and 3 post-draft WAFL selections which resulted in them picking up these players:

Tony Begovich - Claremont (9 games for the Eagles)
Brad Gwilliam - West Perth (4 games for the Eagles)
Dean Kemp - Subiaco (243 games for the Eagles)
Peter Mann - Claremont (0 games for the Eagles)
Ryan Turnbull - Claremont (129 games for the Eagles)

In 1990 they were permitted 2 pre-draft WAFL selections which resulted in them picking up these players:

Glen Jakovich - South Fremantle (276 games for the Eagles)
Mitchell White - Subiaco (151 games for the Eagles)

In 1991 they were permitted 1 pre-draft WAFL selection which resulted in them picking up this players:

Jason Ball - Swan Districts (103 games for the Eagles)

In 1992 the Eagles were no longer given any pre-draft selections and drafted their first non-WAFL from Port Adelaide. Shane Bond holds that distinction and he played 34 games for the Eagles.

Father-son rules up until 1995 said sons of former WAFL players could be drafted to the Eagles which allowed West Coast to pick up these players:

1989: Ashley McIntosh - Claremont (242 games for the Eagles)
1995: Ben Cousins - East Fremantle (238 games for the Eagles)

So the Eagles were virtually allowed to sign the best WAFL players every year from 1986-1991 with the exception of Bairstow, Harding and Wilson in 1986 but they ended up getting Harding and Wilson anyway. The one guy they couldn't get from the post 1986 WAFL crop was Mark Bairstow. Small price to pay when you basically get a crack at everyone else for 6 years plus father-son concessions.

This is how they built their 'state' side in the early 90s.

 

[hench]

Generally depends on how much the AFL community hates Malthouse at any present time.

 

[stax on the mull]

Is there documentary evidence that Bewick, Wilson et al were lied to re prospects of a wa team? Or have they even said as much in interviews? I'm not doubting it could have happened.

Definitely not Darren Bewick as he didn't play for Essendon until 1988. In 1986 and 1987 he was still playing in the WAFL for West Perth.

 

[Allan Shorty]

Good docos. Thanks for that. Though I missed the bit where it said that players were lied to.

Dennis commetti spot on there about the silly club name. Yes Worse than western Bulldogs. I will miss Dennis. He was really sane.

 

[Kram]

Yep, name should be changed to Perf Eagles.

 

[refresh]

Does anyone have a link to the concessions they received? It's out there but I can't find it

Including the additional concessions when Indian Pacific went belly up?

 

[stax on the mull]

Does anyone have a link to the concessions they received? It's out there but I can't find it

Including the additional concessions when Indian Pacific went belly up?

Its those additional 2nd lot of concessions that are mindbogglingly generous. What team that finishes runner up in a Grand Final gets a pre-draft concession for the following year?

 

[Allan Shorty]

If I remember the story correctly Peter Wilson was just one of the WAFL boys threatened with never playing in the VFL if they didn't sign up before the Eagles were granted a licence, and lied to by the VFL telling them would never be a Perth team, only for it to be announced after they'd pillaged the WAFL.

This is a good foundation myth to have. But is any of it true is what I want to know.

 

[refresh]

Its those additional 2nd lot of concessions that are mindbogglingly generous. What team that finishes runner up in a Grand Final gets a pre-draft concession for the following year?

But what exactly were they. It was to do with restrictions on the Victorian teams recruiting from WA and resulted in Heady, Kemp etc been available at such high picks

 

[stax on the mull]

But what exactly were they. It was to do with restrictions on the Victorian teams recruiting from WA and resulted in Heady, Kemp etc been available at such high picks

The Port Adelaide poster "Matchu" has covered it above with the named picks, but you're also right about the restrictions. Any Victorian club could only choose one WA player in the draft, plus West Coast had a plethora of left over late picks available to increase their list up to 50 players after starting with about 35.

This is a good foundation myth to have. But is any of it true is what I want to know.

Only partly true but serves for mythmaking WA vs The VFL parochialism and is overblown in importance. Some players probably didn't even care about playing for West Coast anyway. You have to put it in context that it was a WA based team playing against (for the most part) suburban VFL clubs, partly weakened in by the introduction of two extra teams (Brisbane and West Coast) and the player retention scheme in South Australia which aimed to keep SA players playing in the SANFL. It wasn't a free for all level draft.

You have to be mindful at the time that if you were taken in the national draft you were under no obligation to leave your state and travel to your drafted club. Any Eagles supporter would know this because it took 3 years for David Hynes to eventually come west after being drafted from Port Adelaide in the 1988 draft.

 

[Kwality]

Definitely not Darren Bewick as he didn't play for Essendon until 1988. In 1986 and 1987 he was still playing in the WAFL for West Perth.

After three years with West Perth, during which time he also made his West Australian interstate debut, Darren Bewick ventured to VFL side Essendon at the end of the 1987 season.
An Essendon premiership player in 1993 and 2000, Bewick also played in three pre-season premiership teams for the Bombers. He was runner-up in the club's 1991 best and fairest count. He played four state of origin and two state league matches for Western Australia.
- See more at: http://australianfootball.com/players/player/darren+bewick/12478#sthash.QwxXUByu.dpuf

Another more than useful WA player to debut in the VFL in 1987 was Nicky Winmar:
After narrowly missing selection in West Coast’s inaugural VFL squad in 1987, South Fremantle’s Neil Elvis Winmar - usually referred to as ‘Nicky’ - ended up instead at St Kilda where, as the cliché has it, he became an overnight sensation. Exquisitely skilled, and capable of the spectacular, Winmar also possessed an aggressive streak which made him an extraordinarily formidable opponent when he wasn’t getting into trouble.
Voted the Saints’ fairest and best player on two occasions ...

- See more at: http://australianfootball.com/players/player/nicky+winmar/12404#sthash.5QBmUkZQ.dpuf

Also strutting his stuff in WA was Derek Kickett:
Kickett began his senior career in the West Australian Football League with West Perth, and he was the leading goalkicker at West Perth in 1984.[2] After falling out with the Falcons early in the 1986 season, Kickett ... fitted in perfectly and was a key member of the Tigers’ record-breaking 1987 team that finished with twenty-one consecutive unbeaten matches and their sixth senior flag. Kickett polled 46 votes in the Sandover Medal in 1987, which was the most of any player that season, but was ineligible to win due a suspension for slapping an opponent. Kickett would have won the Sandover Medal by sixteen votes, had he been eligible.
In 1988, Kickett moved to Adelaide and played for Central District in the South Australian National Football League; then, in 1989, he was recruited by North Melbourne in the Victorian Football League, where he also played only one season before being delisted.
In 1990, Kickett moved to the Essendon Football Club, where he played four seasons, and became a popular cult figure ...

Plenty of talent in WA footy in the 80s ....

 

[Kwality]

Does anyone have a link to the concessions they received? It's out there but I can't find it

Including the additional concessions when Indian Pacific went belly up?

remember they had 18 less players on their initial list than any other VFL club ... 18 extra players needed .....

 

[Forward Press]

The Port Adelaide poster "Matchu" has covered it above with the named picks, but you're also right about the restrictions. Any Victorian club could only choose one WA player in the draft, plus West Coast had a plethora of left over late picks available to increase their list up to 50 players after starting with about 35.

Ten players from the WAFL is a pretty good draft year. Not the Eagles fault that they chose to ignore Heady and Kemp, or that three other clubs opted for players not named Peter Matera. They turned out to be guns but no other club thought that at the time. I fail to see how allowing the VFL clubs to pick and choose the best WAFL talent of that year, and the 'concession' for that is being given subsequent later picks from the WAFL, is an advantage for West Coast.

Daniel Wells for example was the only WAFL player taken in his draft. Last year saw less than 10 as well. It's not that uncommon.

 

[Matchu]

Its those additional 2nd lot of concessions that are mindbogglingly generous. What team that finishes runner up in a Grand Final gets a pre-draft concession for the following year?

Retrospectively, they do look very generous. I'm sure it was a case of not expecting the team to do so well and slowly decreasing the amount of pre-draft selections they had year by year eg 5 in 1988, 2+3 in 1989, 2 in 1990 etc. Again, retrospectively, West Coast probably didn't need the father-son concessions but they took full advantage of them by securing McIntosh and Cousins.

Something else that is kind of brushed over is that at the end of 1986 they were allowed to sign up to 6 uncontracted WA players from other VFL clubs and they used that rule to sign Annear, Glendinning, Narkle and Turner. They also thought they would be able to sign Buckenara and Harding but the Victorian Supreme Court upheld their Hawthorn contracts. They ended up getting Harding a few years later.

Retrospectively, it looks like West Coast were given a lot.

 

[stax on the mull]

Ten players from the WAFL is a pretty good draft year. Not the Eagles fault that they chose to ignore Heady and Kemp, or that three other clubs opted for players not named Peter Matera. They turned out to be guns but no other club thought that at the time. I fail to see how allowing the VFL clubs to pick and choose the best WAFL talent of that year, and the 'concession' for that is being given subsequent later picks from the WAFL, is an advantage for West Coast.

Daniel Wells for example was the only WAFL player taken in his draft. Last year saw less than 10 as well. It's not that uncommon.

The VFL clubs didn't pick the best WA talent first. They had to pick their players out of the same draft that West Coast picked their players from, but each club could draft only one player from WA. They didn't pick Heady or Kemp with their one and only pick for the same reason that West Coast didn't pick them with their first picks.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Retrospectively, they do look very generous. I'm sure it was a case of not expecting the team to do so well and slowly decreasing the amount of pre-draft selections they had year by year eg 5 in 1988, 2+3 in 1989, 2 in 1990 etc. Again, retrospectively, West Coast probably didn't need the father-son concessions but they took full advantage of them by securing McIntosh and Cousins.

Something else that is kind of brushed over is that at the end of 1986 they were allowed to sign up to 6 uncontracted WA players from other VFL clubs and they used that rule to sign Annear, Glendinning, Narkle and Turner. They also thought they would be able to sign Buckenara and Harding but the Victorian Supreme Court upheld their Hawthorn contracts. They ended up getting Harding a few years later.

Retrospectively, it looks like West Coast were given a lot.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Retrospectively, they do look very generous. I'm sure it was a case of not expecting the team to do so well and slowly decreasing the amount of pre-draft selections they had year by year eg 5 in 1988, 2+3 in 1989, 2 in 1990 etc. Again, retrospectively, West Coast probably didn't need the father-son concessions but they took full advantage of them by securing McIntosh and Cousins.

Something else that is kind of brushed over is that at the end of 1986 they were allowed to sign up to 6 uncontracted WA players from other VFL clubs and they used that rule to sign Annear, Glendinning, Narkle and Turner. They also thought they would be able to sign Buckenara and Harding but the Victorian Supreme Court upheld their Hawthorn contracts. They ended up getting Harding a few years later.

Retrospectively, it looks like West Coast were given a lot.

They were - the West Coast Eagles into the AFL - was exactly like the Brisbane Broncos into the NRL at the same time - a state team- Gene Miles - Lewis- Meninga - Alfie Langer - the Walters clan

Both teams were gifted multiple premierships on a silver bloody plate - and the rank and file rugby league supporters of traditional Sydney clubs ( who had to win premieships the hard way and the proper way ) detested loathed and absolutely hated the ceunts - that being the Brisbane Broncos - if you live in Sydney you have 1st hand knowledge of that

The only positive out of those gifted Eagles flags - was it fast tracked Fremantle into the comp - so it was good in a way