What are the question marks over your team in 2022?

[Dewyyyyy]

Jordon Gallucci, Chayce Jones, Fisher MacAsey, Ned McHenry
Vs
James Worpel, Dylan Moore, Changkouth Jiath, Lachie Bramble

Recent Adelaide first rounders vs a pick 45, pick 67, a category B rookie and a supplemental pre-season selection.

Tell me honestly which group you'd prefer based on output at AFL level.


You're also proving that you haven't watched Will Day closely at all if you don't think Hawthorn has a player of such class on their list.

PS. Kosi scored the 3 votes on Brownlow night in the famous Thillthorpe debut game.

I'd take ours in all of those.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Jordon Gallucci, Chayce Jones, Fisher MacAsey, Ned McHenry
Vs
James Worpel, Dylan Moore, Changkouth Jiath, Lachie Bramble

Recent Adelaide first rounders vs a pick 45, pick 67, a category B rookie and a supplemental pre-season selection.

Tell me honestly which group you'd prefer based on output at AFL level.


You're also proving that you haven't watched Will Day closely at all if you don't think Hawthorn has a player of such class on their list.

PS. Kosi scored the 3 votes on Brownlow night in the famous Thillthorpe debut game.

Gallucci hasn't been on our list for quite sometime.

The fact you missed naming most of our young players who played most of the year shows you know little about our list.

Butts didn't have more than 2 goals kicked on him.
Schoenberg looks to be a 200+ game midfielder.
Sholl with great skills off both feet.
Berry looks like a solid player.

Thilthorpe is a better prospect of any player on your list.

Pedlar is the one I'm really looking forward to, injury free.

BTW, I do rate Day as mentioned in another thread, but your list appears to be lacking quality young talent imo.

Any ways, will leave it up to supporters of other clubs to compare our lists without bias.

 

[Obeanie1]

It’s clear that you’ve made up your mind about a list that you know little about.

And I agree with a fair few others on where we see the Hawks list and 2022 chances.

Ever thought that being a Hawks supporter leads to a bit of bias and over rating your own team. It is a very common human thought process.

Its clear Hawks fans are overrating their team......wow who would have expected that?

Anyway time will tell. I will be stunned if they finished higher then the bottom 4. Many others also feel the same. I have 'no skin in this game' and so I have a neutral perspective. Hawks fans do not.

Time will tell.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Gallucci hasn't been on our list for quite sometime.

The fact you missed naming most of our young players who played most of the year shows you know little about our list.

Butts didn't have more than 2 goals kicked on him.
Schoenberg looks to be a 200+ game midfielder.
Sholl with great skills off both feet.
Berry looks like a solid player.

Thilthorpe is a better prospect of any player on your list.

Pedlar is the one I'm really looking forward to, injury free.

BTW, I do rate Day as mentioned in another thread, but your list appears to be lacking quality young talent imo.

Any ways, will leave it up to supporters of other clubs to compare our lists without bias.

I think he was just naming recent high picks bud.

Butts is very good, big fan but wasn't a high pick and wasn't the point of his post and proves our point.

Schoenberg looks good, Sholl looks good, had a lean patch but kids do that and Berry looks okay.

Thilthorpe is talented but he's not 100% better than any of our players.

Pedlar looks decent.

Clearly you don't know much.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

And I agree with a fair few others on where we see the Hawks list and 2022 chances.

Ever thought that being a Hawks supporter leads to a bit of bias and over rating your own team. It is a very common human thought process.

Its clear Hawks fans are overrating their team......wow who would have expected that?

Anyway time will tell. I will be stunned if they finished higher then the bottom 4. Many others also feel the same. I have 'no skin in this game' and so I have a neutral perspective. Hawks fans do not.

Time will tell.

Think you should be more worried about West Coast atm bud.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Gallucci hasn't been on our list for quite sometime.

The fact you missed naming most of our young players who played most of the year shows you know little about our list.

Butts didn't have more than 2 goals kicked on him.
Schoenberg looks to be a 200+ game midfielder.
Sholl with great skills off both feet.
Berry looks like a solid player.

Thilthorpe is a better prospect of any player on your list.

Pedlar is the one I'm really looking forward to, injury free.

BTW, I do rate Day as mentioned in another thread, but your list appears to be lacking quality young talent imo.

Any ways, will leave it up to supporters of other clubs to compare our lists without bias.

I was referencing your point about Hawthorn lacking high end draft picks, then simply provided some recent high end picks from Adelaide who I feel are underperforming compared to Hawthorns lower selections. This is why that argument never truely holds up.

Day, Granger-Barrass and Scrimshaw are all high end draft selections who ooze class and/or leadership.
Tyler Brockman looks very exciting.
Jiath, as mentioned previously.

You won't get any argument from me when comparing midfields. The Crows currently have the better crop of young kids in this area.
However we went and drafted strongly focusing on our engine room and you'd have to live in denial to not believe that Josh Ward looks like he could become a hell of a player. Ditto Sam Butler who is a genuine mid/fwd, plus pure mid Connor Macdonald. In 12 months time that gap may narrow.

I'd currently back in our defensive end and rate our young forwards higher than Adelaide's as a collective.
Can check in on the developments in 12 months time.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

That's the thing, there are now more unknown & unproven players on the Hawks list... along with the loss of the best modern day coach. Not many players you could say for certainty will be A graders.

Hawks have not had the same number of early rounds picks as other rebuilding sides as Clarko was using many for trading players in.

Imo, Hawks currently have the worst list & strong contender for the spoon.

Who do you think has a worse list?

I don't really care for the pissing contest of who list is worse, I just care for acknowledging the reality of 2021 in regards to Hawthorn.


Clarkson, for all that he did for us over a long period of time, had us bottom 2 halfway through 2021, handing North their first win of the year, while playing Worpel and O’meara out of the goal square in the first half(WTF) and struggling to score. It took him half a season to recognize that his game plan was failing - this had become a bit of a common them over the last few years(2017 and 2019 were also years where Hawthorn played a deliberate style of football that failed before making changes at the bye, 2020 was diabolical as soon as we went into the hubs and it never really got better). For all the plaudits he should get for being a master coach, he had us playing horrible footy, well below our capability for half of 2021, yet this somehow gets glossed over.

Hawthorn defeated Lions, Dogs, Swans, Giants, drew with Demons in the second half of 2021 and were 31pts up at the 19 minute mark of the last quarter against the Tigers before stopping to a walk - a game that was also drawn, that they really should've won in a canter.

During this run of games where Hawthorn defeated so many eventual finalists we were missing anywhere between 7-10 of our best 22. Only the Freo and Port game really stand out as really poor games in that period, and this was during the whole “transition plan” period - Clarkson was told of his non-renewal the week of the Port game, and the week of the Freo game the players had raised concerns that they were playing out 12 months with a coach who would be gone at the end of 2022, essentially wasting a year of their careers. Players and club got on the same page when the transition plan was scuttled after the Freo game, and from there performances improved.

For example, Sicily, Impey, Worpel, O’meara, Gunston, Day, Breust, Jiath all missed against the Dogs when they were playing for a place in the top 2, and we pulled them apart.

Against the Lions in Round 20, Hawthorn were out to a 53pt margin at 3qtr time.

We drew against the Dees, with 5 of our 6 first choice defenders unavailable - Hardwick, Jiath, Day, Scrimshaw and Impey, and were also missing Wingard, Sicily and Gunston.
This shows that players like Bramble, Koschitske, Brockman, Nash, Newcombe, Moore, Reeves etc might not be top 10 picks, but they can all compete and beat much more fancied opponents, even with only a handful of games to their names.


The worst list in the comp simply doesn’t perform that well against top 8 sides with so many best 22 players missing, and doesn’t have the record that Hawthorn does as below despite being shizen for half the year. So yeah, I'm very happy with so many of our underrated kids, not because of the draft number they were taken at, but because of their output already and their potential development into A graders.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

And I agree with a fair few others on where we see the Hawks list and 2022 chances.

Ever thought that being a Hawks supporter leads to a bit of bias and over rating your own team. It is a very common human thought process.

Its clear Hawks fans are overrating their team......wow who would have expected that?

Anyway time will tell. I will be stunned if they finished higher then the bottom 4. Many others also feel the same. I have 'no skin in this game' and so I have a neutral perspective. Hawks fans do not.

Time will tell.

Joey Montagna, ex-Freo opposition analyst and Fox Footy 'stats man' has said multiple times now that Hawthorn's list is much better than anyone gives them credit for and that they'll not be a bottom 6 side in 2022 - he's more neutral than anyone posting on Bigfooty.

He also called that we’d “shape the finals” after we took the Giants apart in Round 14.

Hawthorn went on to defeat Lions, Dogs and draw with Melbourne, so he was spot on.

There’s plenty of questions about Hawthorn as there are any side that finished in the bottom half, but unlike most sides riding a wave of summer optimism, Hawks fans at least have evidence of improvement and capability, and not just draft picks.

 

[Jack Green]

I don't really care for the pissing contest of who list is worse, I just care for acknowledging the reality of 2021 in regards to Hawthorn.


Clarkson, for all that he did for us over a long period of time, had us bottom 2 halfway through 2021, handing North their first win of the year, while playing Worpel and O’meara out of the goal square in the first half(WTF) and struggling to score. It took him half a season to recognize that his game plan was failing - this had become a bit of a common them over the last few years(2017 and 2019 were also years where Hawthorn played a deliberate style of football that failed before making changes at the bye, 2020 was diabolical as soon as we went into the hubs and it never really got better). For all the plaudits he should get for being a master coach, he had us playing horrible footy, well below our capability for half of 2021, yet this somehow gets glossed over.

Hawthorn defeated Lions, Dogs, Swans, Giants, drew with Demons in the second half of 2021 and were 31pts up at the 19 minute mark of the last quarter against the Tigers before stopping to a walk - a game that was also drawn, that they really should've won in a canter.

During this run of games where Hawthorn defeated so many eventual finalists we were missing anywhere between 7-10 of our best 22. Only the Freo and Port game really stand out as really poor games in that period, and this was during the whole “transition plan” period - Clarkson was told of his non-renewal the week of the Port game, and the week of the Freo game the players had raised concerns that they were playing out 12 months with a coach who would be gone at the end of 2022, essentially wasting a year of their careers. Players and club got on the same page when the transition plan was scuttled after the Freo game, and from there performances improved.

For example, Sicily, Impey, Worpel, O’meara, Gunston, Day, Breust, Jiath all missed against the Dogs when they were playing for a place in the top 2, and we pulled them apart.

Against the Lions in Round 20, Hawthorn were out to a 53pt margin at 3qtr time.

We drew against the Dees, with 5 of our 6 first choice defenders unavailable - Hardwick, Jiath, Day, Scrimshaw and Impey, and were also missing Wingard, Sicily and Gunston.
This shows that players like Bramble, Koschitske, Brockman, Nash, Newcombe, Moore, Reeves etc might not be top 10 picks, but they can all compete and beat much more fancied opponents, even with only a handful of games to their names.


The worst list in the comp simply doesn’t perform that well against top 8 sides with so many best 22 players missing, and doesn’t have the record that Hawthorn does as below despite being shizen for half the year. So yeah, I'm very happy with so many of our underrated kids, not because of the draft number they were taken at, but because of their output already and their potential development into A graders.


View attachment 1304764

You've won me over with your in-depth analysis and knowledge of Hawthorn. You'll have no qualms saying where you see the Hawks finishing this year

 

[Toump Ass]

Clarkson, for all that he did for us over a long period of time, had us bottom 2 halfway through 2021, handing North their first win of the year, while playing Worpel and O’meara out of the goal square in the first half(WTF) and struggling to score. It took him half a season to recognize that his game plan was failing - this had become a bit of a common them over the last few years(2017 and 2019 were also years where Hawthorn played a deliberate style of football that failed before making changes at the bye, 2020 was diabolical as soon as we went into the hubs and it never really got better). For all the plaudits he should get for being a master coach, he had us playing horrible footy, well below our capability for half of 2021, yet this somehow gets glossed over.

Looked to me like Al was taking notes from Master Goodwin's 2019 bottom 2 finish. Use the season to teach the players some "adaptability" as it was called back in the vault, learn an extra role and position. Then get a nice big draft haul at the end of the development year and get ready for another crack. Funny since you gave Clarko the axe, he started winning games...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Looked to me like Al was taking notes from Master Goodwin's 2019 bottom 2 finish. Use the season to teach the players some "adaptability" as it was called back in the vault, learn an extra role and position. Then get a nice big draft haul at the end of the development year and get ready for another crack. Funny since you gave Clarko the axe, he started winning games...

Yeah, I questioned some of the players positions at times.

Playing two clearance mids out of the goal square against a really poor side(North) who’s only real strength is the midfield was the alarm bell for me, and I’m sure we did try to get a look at players in different spots but from what I have heard since from the players(via podcasts) and coaching group they've said that they tore up the game plan at the bye, or as McRae said “tweaked” it.

Funnily enough we started winning games in the middle when we eventually played two midfielders that Mitchell unearthed at Box Hill, Nash and Newcombe - who brought a harder edge.

Nash had been carving up at Box Hill as a center square mid, yet Clarkson would bring him in to play as a forward, and keep playing others in the middle who had been pretty average. This was one of the big things that supporters really started to question what Clarkson was doing, because there was no point in Mitchell unearthing Nash as a 197cm inside mid, if Clarkson would only play him as a forward at AFL level.
Having Nash in there and Newcombe changed the midfield dynamic considerably, which was needed, because it was clear for some months that whatever Bolton was trying to do with Worpel, O’meara and Mitchell, it was not working. We subsequently became a different side through that time as we started to compete much better at center bounces.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Just looked.Fair call. Dogs had a great run with injury too. Very similar to the Dees. Just about all their guns played all or missed 1 or 2. Treloar missed 9 /Dunkley 10 but their top players didn't miss many at all.
Interesting it was a Dogs/Dees GF?

I don’t feel we did, we lost Martin for most of the season, Dunks and Treloar were out for weeks as you mentioned but didn’t come back in form and lost Keath for some important games. Losing Bruce for the year at the end of the season before finals upset the balance and cost us top 4.

It just show the importance of a good fitness and conditioning program which Melbourne had.

 

[Obeanie1]

Think you should be more worried about West Coast atm bud.

Not worried about either team bud.

Eagles could finish bottom 4, or mid table (most likely) or top 4 (if the best players can stay fit and the game plan is fixed). I'm realistic. Just want them to have a crack, fix their terrible, bruise free game plan and the kids improve.

Just chuckling at you and other one eyed Hawks supporters living in denial that the rebuild at Hawthorn has a fair while to go. Especially with a young, green coach.

 

[schmuttt]

Defence is still shaky one on one which makes us too reliant on winning the midfield battle convincingly. Only got beaten through the middle a few times last year. One happened to be in the grand final so thats a big issue.

Ruck is still a glaring weakness.

Who will replace Bruce. Kicked 50 goals last year. That's a lot to replace.

Felt terrible for him but was relieved when Bruce wouldn’t be lining up against Melbourne in the finals. Isn’t a star but reliable goalkicker and helped Naughton out a heap.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Not worried about either team bud.

Eagles could finish bottom 4, or mid table (most likely) or top 4 (if the best players can stay fit and the game plan is fixed). I'm realistic. Just want them to have a crack, fix their terrible, bruise free game plan and the kids improve.

Just chuckling at you and other one eyed Hawks supporters living in denial that the rebuild at Hawthorn has a fair while to go. Especially with a young, green coach.

What kids? Your entire team is old and injury prone x

 

[Trav 20]

Depth is absolutely a big factor, no point denying it.

In terms of the midfield one of my biggest concerns going in to the grand final was the Dogs midfield is deeper in terms of class, but you're right the Dees can cover it if the big 3 and really big 4 (Viney can't be undersold) can stay on the park.

The emergence of Jackson can cover Gawn far more than we used to be able to.

Dunstan has been bought over to provide mature cover, my guess is they want him shadowing Viney and playing a very specific role if needed.

It's impossible to cover Oliver and Petracca entirely. I do think Harmes gets a little undervalued because he hasn't had a clear run in the midfield for a few years now. He's messy, but physically he's right at the peak of quality senior mids, he can play very solid midfield footy. Obviously you can't replace A graders like for like but the important name in terms of providing upside and growth is Tom Sparrow. He's got a fair bit to go to be on the level of guys like Treloar, Dunkley or Smith as rotational mids but he could prove better than a lot of most other sides back ups.

I'd probably be just as worried in terms of winning week to week about who comes in on a forward flank if you roll the second line midfielders up on ball. Given how much is asked of those players in Melbourne (and every teams) game plan I'm not sure there's a lot of ready made guys who can come in and do the defensive work and impact the other way.

Viney is undersold. His finals series was superb. 12 clearances in the GF has only been bettered once this century. He's the third banana, but Petracca, Oliver, Viney is as good as it gets in the centre bounce. Most pleasingly, in the second half of the year he started playing within his limitations and played career best football.

And you're correct about Sparrow. He's going to be a very good mid.

With Brayshaw, Harmes, Sparrow, Jordon, Dunstan, and potentially even Rivers, the midfield rotations are well covered.

But nothing replaces long-term injuries to your stars. You just hope you avoid them.

 

[Trav 20]

Looking back at our history over the last few decades, a pattern has emerged from our head coach perspective....

Jeans - never played for Hawthorn - 3 flags
Joyce - played briefly for Hawthorn, but hardly a great - 2 flags
Knights - Hawthorn great - 0 flags and got nowhere near one
Judge - Hawthorn premiership player - 0 flags and got nowhere near one
Schwab - Hawthorn great - 0 flags and never really got anywhere near one, apart from one pretty flukey prelim appearance
Clarko - never played for Hawthorn - 4 flags
Sammy - Hawthorn great - ?

I'd say this is possibly a concern....

Parkin ?

Captain, premiership player, 200+ games.

Hawthorn premiership coach.

But I'm sure other Hawthorn fans have pointed him out in the ensuing pages...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Just chuckling at you and other one eyed Hawks supporters living in denial that the rebuild at Hawthorn has a fair while to go. Especially with a young, green coach.

Show me where a Hawthorn poster has said that the rebuild is complete?

 

[schmuttt]

I don’t think it is ridiculous to say Adelaide have the worst list. Thilthorpe looks excellent but it’s all about unproven guys with their kids. I’ve got a bit more faith that Kosi/Day/Jiath for starters at the Hawks will be long term players.

 

[Stabby McGee]

Yep, almost all of Richmond's backline seemed to fall over . Losing bits and pieces here and there you can cover to a degree, but if you lose a truckload in the same area of the ground it becomes virtually impossible.
The obvious point is who you get injured. The Melbourne of 2021 and Richmond of 2017 were classic examples of their very best players fit and available for virtually the entire season. Swans in 2005 from memory had nearly the same players give or take a couple, playing every week from the bye to grand final day. And your right - limited injuries as a contender - flag oppurtunity.

That’s the big thing. Good teams can cover a player here and there, but when 2 or 3 go down in one line depth doesn’t cut it. Nobody has that.
In answer to the question it’s hunger. We had a very hungry team last year, and results were on the back of that. Yes very talented but not much more than the next 5 or 6. But we were definitely the most hungry of the lot.

 

[Roddy]

Parkin ?

Captain, premiership player, 200+ games.

Hawthorn premiership coach.

But I'm sure other Hawthorn fans have pointed him out in the ensuing pages...

Yeah I know, I was only extending the search back to the 80s.

 

[WillHayward]

Swans have absolutely nobody in defence 195cm or over.

 

[bzparkes]

What kids? Your entire team is old and injury prone x

That post just shows you know nothing about our list. Plenty of young guys on the list with promise, as evidenced by our first half of the season last year. It's when team selection went back to the well last season that the team struggled and were the worst performed team post-bye. We actually played very well pre-bye with a huge injury list and if the team didn't cough up losses to Bulldogs/Saints would've been nearly top 2. It's the old blokes I'm personally more concerned about, not the youth, as the selection committee continuously backs them in due to 'credits' and the younger blokes who played a lot better were 'unlucky'.

With a revamp in the coaches' box this year I feel that policy won't have much traction moving forward. As Obeanie1 said, we just want to see a change in the stale brand of football which is no longer relevant and all the talk from the club points to this happening. It remains to be seen though.

I know pretty much nothing about Hawthorn's list so I'll refrain from commenting about them.

 

[Nutjob]

Lol

Well be prepared.

Since when?

Lol Mitchell literally said in an interview a few weeks back that he has ‘no idea’ how you will go in 2022.

So if he doesn’t know, how on earth do you know they will perform?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Jack Green]

Show me where a Hawthorn poster has said that the rebuild is complete?

Under a new coach now and coming off consecutive bottom 6 finishes -15th and 14th placings the past 2 seasons , your placing of Hawthorn in 2022 would explain where the Hawks rebuild 2 years in. is tracking in your eyes. Where have you placed them