What are the question marks over your team in 2022?

[Strapping Young Lad]

I know pretty much nothing about Hawthorn's list so I'll refrain from commenting about them.

This is Bigfooty. Don't let that stop you.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Lol Mitchell literally said in an interview a few weeks back that he has ‘no idea’ how you will go in 2022.

So if he doesn’t know, how on earth do you know they will perform?


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To be fair, it was a loaded question and he was hardly ever going to say anything that painted himself into a corner of expectation.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Not worried about either team bud.

Eagles could finish bottom 4, or mid table (most likely) or top 4 (if the best players can stay fit and the game plan is fixed). I'm realistic. Just want them to have a crack, fix their terrible, bruise free game plan and the kids improve.

Just chuckling at you and other one eyed Hawks supporters living in denial that the rebuild at Hawthorn has a fair while to go. Especially with a young, green coach.

Eagles have one of the most talented lists imo... just seem to be jaded under Simpson though. Is the message no longer getting through?

Have you changed your assistant coaches as this can often help regenerate things.

 

[Jack Green]

This is Bigfooty. Don't let that stop you.

Nothing truer ever said

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I don’t think it is ridiculous to say Adelaide have the worst list. Thilthorpe looks excellent but it’s all about unproven guys with their kids. I’ve got a bit more faith that Kosi/Day/Jiath for starters at the Hawks will be long term players.

Butts didn't have more than 2 goals kicked on him playing on all the best forwards.

Schoenberg looks like a 200+ game midfielder.

Sholl has sublime kicking skills of both feet.

Jones found his rebounding mojo.

Reckon we will be ok within a couple of years... but time will tell.

 

[Nutjob]

To be fair, it was a loaded question and he was hardly ever going to say anything that painted himself into a corner of expectation.

He could have said something along the lines of ‘we have some quality young talent coming through (which apparently you have) along with our established players that could potentially help us climb the ladder in 2022.’ No one is going to hold him accountable for showing a bit of optimism with a comment like that. I think he legitimately has no idea how you will fair in 2022 and that’s completely fair enough. A new coach, with adjustments to the game plan with a transforming list, there are many unknowns and Mitchell is fully aware of this.


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[Dewyyyyy]

Lol Mitchell literally said in an interview a few weeks back that he has ‘no idea’ how you will go in 2022.

So if he doesn’t know, how on earth do you know they will perform?


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Well, what a coach says and thinks are completely different. Clarko said this most years.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

That post just shows you know nothing about our list. Plenty of young guys on the list with promise, as evidenced by our first half of the season last year. It's when team selection went back to the well last season that the team struggled and were the worst performed team post-bye. We actually played very well pre-bye with a huge injury list and if the team didn't cough up losses to Bulldogs/Saints would've been nearly top 2. It's the old blokes I'm personally more concerned about, not the youth, as the selection committee continuously backs them in due to 'credits' and the younger blokes who played a lot better were 'unlucky'.

With a revamp in the coaches' box this year I feel that policy won't have much traction moving forward. As Obeanie1 said, we just want to see a change in the stale brand of football which is no longer relevant and all the talk from the club points to this happening. It remains to be seen though.

I know pretty much nothing about Hawthorn's list so I'll refrain from commenting about them.

There is **** all young players on your list that have genuinely showed they can do something and will be A Grade. I can name Allen, Edwards looked good and Duggan. Maybe a few more aswell but jesus.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

He could have said something along the lines of ‘we have some quality young talent coming through (which apparently you have) along with our established players that could potentially help us climb the ladder in 2022.’ No one is going to hold him accountable for showing a bit of optimism with a comment like that. I think he legitimately has no idea how you will fair in 2022 and that’s completely fair enough. A new coach, with adjustments to the game plan with a transforming list, there are many unknowns and Mitchell is fully aware of this.


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Or he just said so they'd stfu.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

He could have said something along the lines of ‘we have some quality young talent coming through (which apparently you have) along with our established players that could potentially help us climb the ladder in 2022.’ No one is going to hold him accountable for showing a bit of optimism with a comment like that. I think he legitimately has no idea how you will fair in 2022 and that’s completely fair enough. A new coach, with adjustments to the game plan with a transforming list, there are many unknowns and Mitchell is fully aware of this.


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He had no reason to say that sort of thing when our footy dept heads have already said as much, as it just fuels expectation and ****wits like Kane Cornes/Barrett etc.

 

[bzparkes]

There is fu** all young players on your list that have genuinely showed they can do something and will be A Grade. I can name Allen, Edwards looked good and Duggan. Maybe a few more aswell but jesus.

Then you don't know our team very well.

There's some good talent coming through, a lot just need the opportunity at senior level to progress.

Not too concerned at this stage. May be down for a couple of seasons but, as history suggests, WCE aren't absent from finals for long.

 

[Dazb86]

Felt terrible for him but was relieved when Bruce wouldn’t be lining up against Melbourne in the finals. Isn’t a star but reliable goalkicker and helped Naughton out a heap.

Probably had an under appreciated year. I think bruce's 2020 epic fail was stuck in everyones mind.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

@ OP, I honestly can’t think of any.

 

[JustaBattler]

Half the list is out of contract in 22 - which says a lot about list management's confidence or lack thereof.
Into the mix comes a totally new coaching panel with Voss at the helm
All he has to do is find two wingmen | cover for a KPD in Jones | and choose between 3 small forwards on the list who haven't played more than 5 games of AFL between the lot.
and cross his fingers that he doesn't have another Carlton injury horror year ...

No problems I can see whatsoever.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Gallucci hasn't been on our list for quite sometime.

The fact you missed naming most of our young players who played most of the year shows you know little about our list.

Butts didn't have more than 2 goals kicked on him.
Schoenberg looks to be a 200+ game midfielder.
Sholl with great skills off both feet.
Berry looks like a solid player.

Thilthorpe is a better prospect of any player on your list.

Pedlar is the one I'm really looking forward to, injury free.

BTW, I do rate Day as mentioned in another thread, but your list appears to be lacking quality young talent imo.

Any ways, will leave it up to supporters of other clubs to compare our lists without bias.

Hawks are unfortunately stuck in no man’s land. A handful of promising youngsters, but simply not enough talent drafted at the really pointy end of the draft to develop into a flag quality team. They gave up the equivalent of around 3 x top-15 picks and Burton over a 3-year period for Mitchell, O’Meara and Wingard. Those guys are also taking up approx $2.2m of cap space.

So those guys plus a bunch of other quality senior players such as Shiels, McEvoy, Gunston, Breust, Sicily etc… will have the Hawks very competitive and maybe even a finals contender.

But as a general rule finals and ultimately flags are won by top-30 drafted talent and especially top-5 picks:

Melbourne: Petracca, Oliver, Lever, Jackson, Pickett, Salem, Viney, Brayshaw, Bowery, Sparrow

Richmond: Martin, Cotchin, Rance, Reiwoldt, Prestia, Lynch, Caddy, Bolton, Balta, Rioli, Edwards, Vlastuin

Hawks: Buddy, Lewis, Hodge, Rioli, Roughy, Burgoyne, Birchall, Smith, McEvoy

Eagles: sheed, Shuey, Redden, Hurn, Yeo, Kennedy, Duggan, Cripps, Masten, Jetta, Darling, Ryan, Lycett,

All top-30 picks or better.

Hawks have:

Impey
McEvoy (on his last legs)
O’Meara
Gunston (question marks on fitness)
Day (looks very good)
Grainger
Wingard
MacDonald and Butler (new draftees)

I’m sure I’ve missed a couple somewhere ….

So I just can’t see the high end talent or depth of top-30 draft picks to contend any time in the next 6-8 years.

Finishing top-4 after H&A in 2018 was a monumental effort from the Hawks but probably did them no favours from a list mgt point of view, as it provided false hope and meant starting a genuine rebuild/refresh probably 2-years later than they should have.

After 2018 they got rid of Burton and a top draft pick for Wingard. On the back of Mitchell and O’Meara it has really made their list build really tough and well behind other teams looking to contend.

In 3-4 years the Hawks midfield is what?: Ward, Bramble, Newcombe, Butler, MacDonald plus some more draftees.

North’s is : Horne-Francis, Simpkin, Philips, LDU, Powell, Thomas

Giants is: Kelly, Hopper, Taranto, Whitfield, Tom Green, Callaghan

So if Hawks don’t win a flag with JOM, Mitchell and Shiels, I’m not sure how they’ll compete with the star studded midfields of North and GWS to name a couple from 2025-2027 as they’ll have 2-3 years development on Hawks.

So then they are holding out for perhaps 2028 onwards…. which is when Ward, Butler, MacDonald and picks from 2022/23 will be hitting their prime. But if Hawks don’t really stockpile top-30 picks and hopefully a couple of top-5 picks in 2022/23 I think they could miss their opportunity. A half arsed rebuild like the Saints did recently will keep them in no man’s land for a long time.



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[Nutjob]

Well, what a coach says and thinks are completely different. Clarko said this most years.

Clarko never said anything alike as he was a fighter and always up for the battle. He was always bullish about how Hawthorn would perform in any given season. Conceding wasn’t in Clarko’s DNA, besides it’s irrelevant as Mitchell isn’t Clarko.


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[Nutjob]

Or he just said so they'd stfu.

Or he was being completely honest. He could have played the straight bat, but he didn’t.


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[Noidnadroj]

Then you don't know our team very well.

There's some good talent coming through, a lot just need the opportunity at senior level to progress.

Not too concerned at this stage. May be down for a couple of seasons but, as history suggests, WCE aren't absent from finals for long.

I’ve got real concerns …. The eagles core midfield is:

NicNat 31
Yeo 28
Gaff 29
Shuey 31
Redden 31
Kelly 27
Sheed 26

There seems to be a void of talented midfielders coming through. I believe with a dream injury run the Eagles are capable of finals in 2022 and maybe 2023, but having given up so much for Tim Kelly and not finishing anywhere near bottom, it’s hard to see a great period for the Eagles from 2024 onwards as the elite young talent just isn’t there.

Having said that, I thought their list was in real trouble back in 2018 and they won the flag, so who knows ….

 

[Nutjob]

He had no reason to say that sort of thing when our footy dept heads have already said as much, as it just fuels expectation and *******s like Kane Cornes/Barrett etc.

There is nothing outlandish about what I quoted, it is a typical straight bat response that most coaches taking over a side would go with. Members and supporters don’t give a crap about what the footy department is reeling out, the buck stops with the coach. The coach is who sells the picture of where the club is heading and for him to respond that way suggests to me he knows no more than you. He is a new coach taking over a list that is rebuilding. It would be naive for him (and supporters) to think it is going to just click straight away.


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[Strapping Young Lad]

Hawks are unfortunately stuck in no man’s land. A handful of promising youngsters, but simply not enough talent drafted at the really pointy end of the draft to develop into a flag quality team. They gave up the equivalent of around 3 x top-15 picks and Burton over a 3-year period for Mitchell, O’Meara and Wingard. Those guys are also taking up approx $2.2m of cap space.

So those guys plus a bunch of other quality senior players such as Shiels, McEvoy, Gunston, Breust, Sicily etc… will have the Hawks very competitive and maybe even a finals contender.

But as a general rule finals and ultimately flags are won by top-30 drafted talent and especially top-5 picks:

Melbourne: Petracca, Oliver, Lever, Jackson, Pickett, Salem, Viney, Brayshaw, Bowery, Sparrow

Richmond: Martin, Cotchin, Rance, Reiwoldt, Prestia, Lynch, Caddy, Bolton, Balta, Rioli, Edwards, Vlastuin

Hawks: Buddy, Lewis, Hodge, Rioli, Roughy, Burgoyne, Birchall, Smith, McEvoy

Eagles: sheed, Shuey, Redden, Hurn, Yeo, Kennedy, Duggan, Cripps, Masten, Jetta, Darling, Ryan, Lycett,

All top-30 picks or better.

Hawks have:

Impey
McEvoy (on his last legs)
O’Meara
Gunston (question marks on fitness)
Day (looks very good)
Grainger
Wingard
MacDonald and Butler (new draftees)

I’m sure I’ve missed a couple somewhere ….

So I just can’t see the high end talent or depth of top-30 draft picks to contend any time in the next 6-8 years.

Finishing top-4 after H&A in 2018 was a monumental effort from the Hawks but probably did them no favours from a list mgt point of view, as it provided false hope and meant starting a genuine rebuild/refresh probably 2-years later than they should have.

After 2018 they got rid of Burton and a top draft pick for Wingard. On the back of Mitchell and O’Meara it has really made their list build really tough and well behind other teams looking to contend.

In 3-4 years the Hawks midfield is what?: Ward, Bramble, Newcombe, Butler, MacDonald plus some more draftees.

North’s is : Horne-Francis, Simpkin, Philips, LDU, Powell, Thomas

Giants is: Kelly, Hopper, Taranto, Whitfield, Tom Green, Callaghan

So if Hawks don’t win a flag with JOM, Mitchell and Shiels, I’m not sure how they’ll compete with the star studded midfields of North and GWS to name a couple from 2025-2027 as they’ll have 2-3 years development on Hawks.

So then they are holding out for perhaps 2028 onwards…. which is when Ward, Butler, MacDonald and picks from 2022/23 will be hitting their prime. But if Hawks don’t really stockpile top-30 picks and hopefully a couple of top-5 picks in 2022/23 I think they could miss their opportunity. A half arsed rebuild like the Saints did recently will keep them in no man’s land for a long time.



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There's a bit wrong with this analysis, I'm not even sure where to... but let's make a start anyway...

Why are you arguing that we are stuck in no mans land because we've not had an arbitrary amount of top 5 picks to date but then highlighting a bunch of premiership players that Hawthorn and other clubs traded in that were never top 5 picks. That's shooting yourself in the foot to begin with.

Not sure why you'd even care to menton what amount of the cap Mitchell, O'meara and Wingard are taking considering that we're one of about 3 clubs who have an abundance of space in their cap.

You have indeed missed a bunch of players.

Then you've done this thing that so many do on Bigfooty where you're completely disregarding that draft and trade periods happen every year, so in 2025 or whatever year you choose from the future Hawthorn will have any number of additional players on the list, via draft, trade FA, SSP, etc.

Noticed you didn't mention our best midfielder of the last 25 years, Sam Mitchell. Is that because he was taken at pick 36?

I'll highlight the top 5 picks in this group; then I'll point out that we won 2014 and 2015 with just 2 of these top 5 picks.
Hawks: Buddy, Lewis, Hodge, Rioli, Roughy, Burgoyne, Birchall, Smith, McEvoy

We punted Burton with picks for Wingard, but also upgraded Burton with former number 7 pick, Scrimshaw, at the same time on the cheap. He's already better and has played almost half as many games.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

There is nothing outlandish about what I quoted, it is a typical straight bat response that most coaches taking over a side would go with. Members and supporters don’t give a crap about what the footy department is reeling out, the buck stops with the coach. The coach is who sells the picture of where the club is heading and for him to respond that way suggests to me he knows no more than you.


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That was his straight bat response, he gave them nothing. Go watch the clip, and the way he dismissed the question.

I feel you might be living up to your username if you do truly think someone as footy smart as Mitchell has no idea what he's doing or what his team might be capable of.

 

[Nutjob]

That was his straight bat response, he gave them nothing. Go watch the clip, and the way he dismissed the question.

I feel you might be living up to your username if you do truly think someone as footy smart as Mitchell has no idea what he's doing or what his team might be capable of.

It’s not the straight bat response most would have gone with. Is it so bad that your year ahead is an unknown? I’m not suggesting your list is terrible or that Mitchell is suggesting that either, but there are a lot of unknowns and there is no doubt about that.

The coaching landscape has chewed up and spit out plenty of champion players. Mitchell isn’t a player anymore, he is a coach. He is starting at ground zero like a lot of other champion players before him who have coached and failed. I actually really like Mitchell and I think he will be a successful coach, but let’s not pretend coaches get everything right from the day they step into the job.


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[Strapping Young Lad]

It’s not the straight bat response most would have gone with. Is it so bad that your year ahead is an unknown? I’m not suggesting your list is terrible or that Mitchell is either, but there are a lot of unknowns and there is no doubt about that.

The coaching landscape has chewed up and spit out plenty of champion players. Mitchell isn’t a player anymore, he is a coach. He is starting at ground zero like a lot of other champion players before him who have coached and failed. I actually really like Mitchell and I think he will be a successful coach, but let’s not pretend coaches get everything right from the day they step into the job.


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You've fallen for a sound bite though, or a clickbait article, rather than what was actually said.

His actual response was to a question about getting Gunston and Sicily back and what the expectation would be was: "to be honest expectations is your area, you guys, we won't be worrying too much about that. We'll be putting our plans together, making sure everyone knows what what each other are doing on the field and trying to play the best footy that we can. Now we don't have a clue what that will look like, and you guys will have plenty ideas of what that will be, but we won't know that until March at the earliest."

 

[Jack Green]

Hawks are unfortunately stuck in no man’s land. A handful of promising youngsters, but simply not enough talent drafted at the really pointy end of the draft to develop into a flag quality team. They gave up the equivalent of around 3 x top-15 picks and Burton over a 3-year period for Mitchell, O’Meara and Wingard. Those guys are also taking up approx $2.2m of cap space.

So those guys plus a bunch of other quality senior players such as Shiels, McEvoy, Gunston, Breust, Sicily etc… will have the Hawks very competitive and maybe even a finals contender.

But as a general rule finals and ultimately flags are won by top-30 drafted talent and especially top-5 picks:

Melbourne: Petracca, Oliver, Lever, Jackson, Pickett, Salem, Viney, Brayshaw, Bowery, Sparrow

Richmond: Martin, Cotchin, Rance, Reiwoldt, Prestia, Lynch, Caddy, Bolton, Balta, Rioli, Edwards, Vlastuin

Hawks: Buddy, Lewis, Hodge, Rioli, Roughy, Burgoyne, Birchall, Smith, McEvoy

Eagles: sheed, Shuey, Redden, Hurn, Yeo, Kennedy, Duggan, Cripps, Masten, Jetta, Darling, Ryan, Lycett,

All top-30 picks or better.

Hawks have:

Impey
McEvoy (on his last legs)
O’Meara
Gunston (question marks on fitness)
Day (looks very good)
Grainger
Wingard
MacDonald and Butler (new draftees)

I’m sure I’ve missed a couple somewhere ….

So I just can’t see the high end talent or depth of top-30 draft picks to contend any time in the next 6-8 years.

Finishing top-4 after H&A in 2018 was a monumental effort from the Hawks but probably did them no favours from a list mgt point of view, as it provided false hope and meant starting a genuine rebuild/refresh probably 2-years later than they should have.

After 2018 they got rid of Burton and a top draft pick for Wingard. On the back of Mitchell and O’Meara it has really made their list build really tough and well behind other teams looking to contend.

In 3-4 years the Hawks midfield is what?: Ward, Bramble, Newcombe, Butler, MacDonald plus some more draftees.

North’s is : Horne-Francis, Simpkin, Philips, LDU, Powell, Thomas

Giants is: Kelly, Hopper, Taranto, Whitfield, Tom Green, Callaghan

So if Hawks don’t win a flag with JOM, Mitchell and Shiels, I’m not sure how they’ll compete with the star studded midfields of North and GWS to name a couple from 2025-2027 as they’ll have 2-3 years development on Hawks.

So then they are holding out for perhaps 2028 onwards…. which is when Ward, Butler, MacDonald and picks from 2022/23 will be hitting their prime. But if Hawks don’t really stockpile top-30 picks and hopefully a couple of top-5 picks in 2022/23 I think they could miss their opportunity. A half arsed rebuild like the Saints did recently will keep them in no man’s land for a long time.



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You've summed up the Hawks pretty well here, and I unfortunately think at this point of time, the Saint too.

 

[Jack Green]

That was his straight bat response, he gave them nothing. Go watch the clip, and the way he dismissed the question.

I feel you might be living up to your username if you do truly think someone as footy smart as Mitchell has no idea what he's doing or what his team might be capable of.

Agreed. Whether you love him or hate him , could never be accused of being an idiot. I think he has a very good idea of where the list is at, and what he wants to do with it. Being himself involved as a player in the 2001 trades to kick start the Hawthorn rebuild , from all reports he was very keen to trade out players for picks last October. Though not successful in this, why wouldn't you??

He saw first hand it work 2 decades earlier. He was involved in the Croad/McPharlin trade with Freo giving the Hawks 5 picks inside the mid- 30's, which started the ball rolling to a premiership 7 years later. We don't and won't know for some time if he is a good AFL coach. But his list management strategy come end of season, will be a very interesting watch.