What do you do with Shane Watson?

[Doodlesweaver]

Mitch Marsh has shown he can bowl tight but Watson has (historic) form for breaking through...it's the only possible thing I can think of keeping MMarsh out at present.

He's taken **** all wickets for Aus in the past three or so years. He's a part-timer now.

 

[Dr Awkward]

Faulkner's test hopes depend on him being good enough to be one of our top three quicks or batting at seven which would require a keeper good enough to bat at six.

With our top order I'd also suggest that Nevill won't be batting at six.

Well we're not getting much out of our current number 6. With the strength in our lower order and the lack of any other proven test batsmen I think Faulkner would be worth the risk.

I also reckon he would bring of lot of good intangibles to the side as well.

 

[Doodlesweaver]

Well we're not getting much out of our current number 6. With the strength in our lower order and the lack of any other proven test batsmen I think Faulkner would be worth the risk.

I also reckon he would bring of lot of good intangibles to the side as well.

Faulkner's intangible intangibles will never stand up against Watson's intangible tangibles. Or Mitch Marsh's tangible intangibles for that matter.

 

[Dr Awkward]

Faulkner's intangible intangibles will never stand up against Watson's intangible tangibles. Or Mitch Marsh's tangible intangibles for that matter.

I just feel like Faulkner will meet all the KPIs

 

[Doodlesweaver]

I just feel like Faulkner will meet all the KPIs

Stakeholders will be happy

 

[The Passenger]

Faulkner will get a chance at some point. Too good not too. But barring injury it won't be to post Ashes as he is not in the squad.

His best chance of getting a run is if Watson gets the boot and Marsh get a chance. Unless Faulkner does something super impressive in Shield then he'll remain behind Marsh until he gets his chance first. And if Marsh makes the most of his opportunity than it'll be hard for Faulkner to get a look in but at some point there will be an injury (even more likely when you consider the Marsh boys history). If Marsh performs poorly in his first half a dozen or so tests then it'll be likely Faulkner comes in and gets his shot.

 

[RookiePick]

He's taken **** all wickets for Aus in the past three or so years. He's a part-timer now.

He's played 4 tests and bowled 61 overs for 14 maidens. He's only bowled 21 overs not in the subcontinent. I think you might be jumping the gun for a batting all rounder...

 

[Doodlesweaver]

He's played 4 tests and bowled 61 overs for 14 maidens. He's only bowled 21 overs not in the subcontinent. I think you might be jumping the gun for a batting all rounder...

In the past three years he's taken 15 wickets at 50.66. That's a decent part-timer bowler's figures.

He's averaged 32.41 with the bat, so he's not got much to show in the batting department either.

He has played 22 matches in that time.

I don't understand where you got your 4 test matches from.

 

[Weagleman]

The never ending Watson debate continues, Watson should make way for M Marsh. His batting has been ordinary, Particularly at no 6 where marsh would bat and his bowling had been pedestrian, slow and non penetrating. Sure his economy is good but then so is Marshs and he gives you 5-10km/h more.

 

[Phone]

So I've been meaning to make a post like this for awhile and here it is

Since Clarke took over the captaincy, here are all the instances of a top 7 player being excluded from the team during an away test series/home summer. (So Bailey being dropped post 13-14 Ashes for the away SA series isn't really what I'm thinking about, although I do note it, but Hughes being dropped for the home India series in 2011-12 following the home NZ series is the type of exclusion I'm thinking about it.)

There's a point to this at the other end of this post if you want to skip to it.

Sri Lankan tour 2011
- Ricky Ponting (2nd test of series, Aus won previous game, Ponting left tour for personal reasons. Marsh replaced him.)
- Usman Khawaja (3rd test of series, Aus draw previous game, Ponting re-joined tour, Marsh scored ton replacing Ponting, Usman squeezed out)

South Africa tour 2011
- Shaun Marsh (2nd test of series, Aus lost previous game, Shaun Marsh injured during previous game. Usman replaced him.)

2011-12 Home Summer v NZ then India
David Warner replaced the injured Shane Watson pre-series.
- Phil Hughes and Usman Khawaja (dropped for first test of Indian series. Aus lost previous game of the summer v NZ. Ed Cowan and the fit again Shaun Marsh replaced them)
No other changes for home summer, despite Shaun Marsh scoring about 4 runs in the 4 tests against India. Australia won all those games.

2012 away v WI
No changes made during series. Aus won series 2-0. Shaun Marsh had been dropped for the returning Shane Watson. Matthew Wade replaced Brad Haddin who returned home for personal reasons.

2012-13 Home summer v SA then SL
Rob Quiney replaced the injured Shane Watson prior to the series starting
- Rob Quiney (Replaced by the returning Shane Watson for the third test. Aus had drew the previous game of the series
- Ricky Ponting (Retired following the conclusion of the SA series. Replaced by Phil Hughes. Aus lost the previous game of the series.)
- Shane Watson (injured during the MCG test against SL. Replaced by a 5th bowler for the final game of the summer. Aus won previous game of the series)

2012-13 away tour v India
Michael Hussey retired following conclusion of home summer. Shane Watson resumed place in team as a batsman only. Henriques effectively replaced Watson as all-rounder.
- Shane Watson, Matthew Wade (3rd test v India. Watson out due to homework gate, Wade out due to injury. Replaced by Steven Smith and Brad Haddin. Aus lost previous game)
- Michael Clarke, Moises Henriques, Brad Haddin (4th test v India. Clarke injured. Matthew Wade resumed place as keeper. Henriques dropped. Watson and Maxwell replaced Clarke and Henriques. Aus lost previous game.)

2013 Ashes
Lots of stuff happened prior to series starting. Chris Rogers replaced suspended David Warner (there's more to it but I'll leave it there). Brad Haddin replaced Matthew Wade. Clarke resumed place in team. Watson resumed place as all-rounder. Reminder: The top 7 looks like: Rogers-Watson-Cowan-Clarke-Smith-Hughes-Haddin.

- Ed Cowan (Dropped after 1st test. Replaced by Usman Khawaja. Aus lost previous game of series
- Phil Hughes (Dropped after 2nd test. Replaced by David Warner. Aus lost previous game of series.
- Usman Khawaja (Dropped after 4th test. Replaced by James Faulkner Aus lost previous game of series

2013-14 Ashes
George Bailey replaced James Faulkner prior to series starting.
No changes made during series. Despite poor performances of Bailey. Aus won series 5-0

2013-14 away v SA
George Bailey(dropped) & Shane Watson (injured) replaced by Alex Doolan and Shaun Marsh
- Shaun Marsh (Dropped after 2nd test. Replaced by returning Shane Watson. Aus had lost previous game of series. Marsh recoded a pair in said match, although had scored a ton in the 1st test

2014 away v Pakistan
Shane Watson ruled out of tour due to injury. Replaced by Mitch Marsh for first test.
- Alex Doolan (Dropper after first test. Replaced by Glenn frickin' Maxwell. Aus lost previous game of series)

2014-15 home summer v India
Shane Watson replaced Glenn Maxwell
- Michael Clarke (Injured during first test. Replaced by Shaun Marsh. Aus won previous game of series)
- Mitch Marsh (Injured during second test. Replaced by Joe Burns. Aus won previous game of series)

2015 away v WI
Joe Burns replaced by returning Michael Clarke. Chris Rogers injured, replaced by Adam Voges

END


So basically, Australia are really really good at dropping players following a loss (aka the Phil Hughes treatment), but have literally not dropped a top 7 player for solely form reasons following a test win in over 4 years. And I think I can go back further before I find a simple "We won the previous game of the series, but (x) isn't performing in his role, we will replace him with (y) in the same role". Maybe even as far back as 2005-06 when Simon Katich and Michael Clarke lost their spots during the WI home series which we won 3-0. (although one of them lost their spot because Langer returned to the team but Hussey had to be kept in.)

So if you're being removed from the team following a win, it's cause of a returning player, or because the balance of the team has changed (not evident in the above, but I'm thinking "we want an an all-rounder, we have to remove you".) Shane Watson being dropped for the next test for Mitch Marsh, a simple dropping with the replacement fulfilling the same role would literally be unprecedented in recent Australian history. I'm not expecting the history to change for the next match in this series.

 

[Doodlesweaver]

So I've been meaning to make a post like this for awhile and here it is

Since Clarke took over the captaincy, here are all the instances of a top 7 player being excluded from the team during an away test series/home summer. (So Bailey being dropped post 13-14 Ashes for the away SA series isn't really what I'm thinking about, although I do note it, but Hughes being dropped for the home India series in 2011-12 following the home NZ series is the type of exclusion I'm thinking about it.)

There's a point to this at the other end of this post if you want to skip to it.

Sri Lankan tour 2011
- Ricky Ponting (2nd test of series, Aus won previous game, Ponting left tour for personal reasons. Marsh replaced him.)
- Usman Khawaja (3rd test of series, Aus draw previous game, Ponting re-joined tour, Marsh scored ton replacing Ponting, Usman squeezed out)

South Africa tour 2011
- Shaun Marsh (2nd test of series, Aus lost previous game, Shaun Marsh injured during previous game. Usman replaced him.)

2011-12 Home Summer v NZ then India
David Warner replaced the injured Shane Watson pre-series.
- Phil Hughes and Usman Khawaja (dropped for first test of Indian series. Aus lost previous game of the summer v NZ. Ed Cowan and the fit again Shaun Marsh replaced them)
No other changes for home summer, despite Shaun Marsh scoring about 4 runs in the 4 tests against India. Australia won all those games.

2012 away v WI
No changes made during series. Aus won series 2-0. Shaun Marsh had been dropped for the returning Shane Watson. Matthew Wade replaced Brad Haddin who returned home for personal reasons.

2012-13 Home summer v SA then SL
Rob Quiney replaced the injured Shane Watson prior to the series starting
- Rob Quiney (Replaced by the returning Shane Watson for the third test. Aus had drew the previous game of the series
- Ricky Ponting (Retired following the conclusion of the SA series. Replaced by Phil Hughes. Aus lost the previous game of the series.)
- Shane Watson (injured during the MCG test against SL. Replaced by a 5th bowler for the final game of the summer. Aus won previous game of the series)

2012-13 away tour v India
Michael Hussey retired following conclusion of home summer. Shane Watson resumed place in team as a batsman only. Henriques effectively replaced Watson as all-rounder.
- Shane Watson, Matthew Wade (3rd test v India. Watson out due to homework gate, Wade out due to injury. Replaced by Steven Smith and Brad Haddin. Aus lost previous game)
- Michael Clarke, Moises Henriques, Brad Haddin (4th test v India. Clarke injured. Matthew Wade resumed place as keeper. Henriques dropped. Watson and Maxwell replaced Clarke and Henriques. Aus lost previous game.)

2013 Ashes
Lots of stuff happened prior to series starting. Chris Rogers replaced suspended David Warner (there's more to it but I'll leave it there). Brad Haddin replaced Matthew Wade. Clarke resumed place in team. Watson resumed place as all-rounder. Reminder: The top 7 looks like: Rogers-Watson-Cowan-Clarke-Smith-Hughes-Haddin.

- Ed Cowan (Dropped after 1st test. Replaced by Usman Khawaja. Aus lost previous game of series
- Phil Hughes (Dropped after 2nd test. Replaced by David Warner. Aus lost previous game of series.
- Usman Khawaja (Dropped after 4th test. Replaced by James Faulkner Aus lost previous game of series

2013-14 Ashes
George Bailey replaced James Faulkner prior to series starting.
No changes made during series. Despite poor performances of Bailey. Aus won series 5-0

2013-14 away v SA
George Bailey(dropped) & Shane Watson (injured) replaced by Alex Doolan and Shaun Marsh
- Shaun Marsh (Dropped after 2nd test. Replaced by returning Shane Watson. Aus had lost previous game of series. Marsh recoded a pair in said match, although had scored a ton in the 1st test

2014 away v Pakistan
Shane Watson ruled out of tour due to injury. Replaced by Mitch Marsh for first test.
- Alex Doolan (Dropper after first test. Replaced by Glenn frickin' Maxwell. Aus lost previous game of series)

2014-15 home summer v India
Shane Watson replaced Glenn Maxwell
- Michael Clarke (Injured during first test. Replaced by Shaun Marsh. Aus won previous game of series)
- Mitch Marsh (Injured during second test. Replaced by Joe Burns. Aus won previous game of series)

2015 away v WI
Joe Burns replaced by returning Michael Clarke. Chris Rogers injured, replaced by Adam Voges

END


So basically, Australia are really really good at dropping players following a loss (aka the Phil Hughes treatment), but have literally not dropped a top 7 player for solely form reasons following a test win in over 4 years. And I think I can go back further before I find a simple "We won the previous game of the series, but (x) isn't performing in his role, we will replace him with (y) in the same role". Maybe even as far back as 2005-06 when Simon Katich and Michael Clarke lost their spots during the WI home series which we won 3-0. (although one of them lost their spot because Langer returned to the team but Hussey had to be kept in.)

So if you're being removed from the team following a win, it's cause of a returning player, or because the balance of the team has changed (not evident in the above, but I'm thinking "we want an an all-rounder, we have to remove you".) Shane Watson being dropped for the next test for Mitch Marsh, a simple dropping with the replacement fulfilling the same role would literally be unprecedented in recent Australian history. I'm not expecting the history to change for the next match in this series.

I expect him to be there come next summer at home and I don't expect that to be dependent on the Aussies winning the Ashes in England. If he's fit, he's in.

 

[RookiePick]

In the past three years he's taken 15 wickets at 50.66. That's a decent part-timer bowler's figures.

He's averaged 32.41 with the bat, so he's not got much to show in the batting department either.

He has played 22 matches in that time.

I don't understand where you got your 4 test matches from.

My stats were for MMarsh. I think we have had a misunderstanding and are arguing the same point. MMarsh should be in and developing in the test 11. Watto should be done, at least in the 5 day game.

 

[Doodlesweaver]

My stats were for MMarsh. I think we have had a misunderstanding and are arguing the same point. MMarsh should be in and developing in the test 11. Watto should be done, at least in the 5 day game.

Fair enough, though I would have thought that using the three year phrase would have shown I was referring to Watson. I'd be all for Marsh or Faulks being given a decent run but I just can't see it while Watson is doing his smoke and mirrors act in front of the selectors.

 

[RookiePick]

Fair enough, though I would have thought that using the three year phrase would have shown I was referring to Watson. I'd be all for Marsh or Faulks being given a decent run but I just can't see it while Watson is doing his smoke and mirrors act in front of the selectors.

Apparently you overestimate me

Faulks can bat but I see him more as a bowling all rounder. Do you think he could bat at 6 in tests? Our specialist bowlers all bat pretty good so I'm not sure if there is a spot down the order unless we have injuries.

 

[PaddyO]

Apparently you overestimate me

Faulks can bat but I see him more as a bowling all rounder. Do you think he could bat at 6 in tests? Our specialist bowlers all bat pretty good so I'm not sure if there is a spot down the order unless we have injuries.

Faulkners best shot is post Watson and Haddin if Nevill comes in and they bat him at #6.

Something like...

Burns
Warner
Smith
Clarke
Voges
Nevill +
Faulkner

But I expect Mitch Marsh'll get first crack in the top 6 post Watto

 

[The_Reaper]

Faulkners best shot is post Watson and Haddin if Nevill comes in and they bat him at #6.

Something like...

Burns
Warner
Smith
Clarke
Voges
Nevill +
Faulkner

But I expect Mitch Marsh'll get first crack in the top 6 post Watto

Our batting lineup isn't good enough to move Nevill up to 6.

 

[eth-dog]

Our batting lineup isn't good enough to move Nevill up to 6.

Nail. Head. Hit.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Our batting lineup isn't good enough to move Nevill up to 6.

tongue in cheek question, but is it too late to teach Nevill to bowl? Would make him an immediate improvement to what we have at 6 at present....

 

[The_Reaper]

tongue in cheek question, but is it too late to teach Nevill to bowl? Would make him an immediate improvement to what we have at 6 at present....

He bowled against WA in the match where Bancroft scored his 200.

It was quite funny. Cricket Australia's website had something like Bowler: Peter Nevill Bowling Type: Does not bowl

Matthew Wade on the other hand could have developed himself into a semi useful part timer.

Surprisingly quick

 

[Art Vandelay_]

He bowled against WA in the match where Bancroft scored his 200.

It was quite funny. Cricket Australia's website had something like Bowler: Peter Nevill Bowling Type: Does not bowl

Matthew Wade on the other hand could have developed himself into a semi useful part timer.

Surprisingly quick

Woohoo! get him on the plane. NZ beat Eng with 4 keepers in the team, let's pick Wadey as our allrounder

 

[The_Reaper]

Woohoo! get him on the plane. NZ beat Eng with 4 keepers in the team, let's pick Wadey as our allrounder

He's probably capable of bowling more overs than Watson and provides more value with the bat

 

[PaddyO]

Our batting lineup isn't good enough to move Nevill up to 6.

Yes it is, Nevill has a FC average of 45. Shaun Marsh's is about 38. So....

Nail. Head. Hit.

Why? Because he has a significantly higher FC average than a guy (Marsh) currently in the test top 6?

Voges has a FC avg of 46, Nevill's is 45....

 

[The_Reaper]

Yes it is, Nevill has a FC average of 45. Shaun Marsh's is about 38. So....



Why? Because he has a significantly higher FC average than a guy (Marsh) currently in the test top 6?

Voges has a FC avg of 46, Nevill's is 45....

Yeah and Shaun Marsh isn't functioning that well - and neither is our batting lineup.

Voges also averaged 100 last shield season and averages over 70 since 2013.

He's a much better batsman than Nevill (and Shaun Marsh is a better batsman than Nevill)

 

[PaddyO]

Woohoo! get him on the plane. NZ beat Eng with 4

Yeah and Shaun Marsh isn't functioning that well - and neither is our batting lineup.

Voges also averaged 100 last shield season and averages over 70 since 2013.

He's a much better batsman than Nevill (and Shaun Marsh is a better batsman than Nevill)

I know Voges is a better batsman than Nevill. And I also know that Shaun Marsh should be a better batsman than Nevill, but he isn't.

Shaun Marsh's whole career is basically 5 failures, then a big hundred that looks amazing against a great attack, followed by 5 more failures. Repeat. If he could string consistency together he'd be amazing but he's yet to show he can, and he's not young,

Anyway, my point is that Nevill is good enough to bat at #6 in tests. Not how he compares to other batsmen. And I'd be interested in someone telling me why they think Nevill couldn't bat at 6 in tests.

 

[Weagleman]

Shane Watson's whole career is basically 10 failures, then a big hundred that looks amazing against a great attack, followed by 10 more failures. Repeat. If he could string consistency together he'd be amazing but he's yet to show he can, and he's not young.

Edited for higher accurateness.