- Banned
- #1
What would you do?
In light of the latest video of US Police I pose this. (yes it was on another board, but I feel strongly about it thus chose to start a thread). So there.
A few thoughts up on my Soap Box.
What we all have to realise with Police Officers worldwide is that they are recruited from the human race and not robots designed in labs. Thus, human frailties come into play. 99.9% of officers are hard working honest people with husbands/wives, mother/fathers, brothers/sisters and children, just like the rest of us. 100% of them suffer from the human affliction of not being perfect. 99.9% of them turn up for work not knowing what dangers are ahead. 99.9% of wives, husbands, mothers, fathers, children etc of these officers say goodbye to them not knowing if they are coming home. So what, you may ask. These people choose this profession and know what they are getting themselves into. Yes I agree, but what type of society do we have without Law and Order (I don’t mean the TV show either). I am not saying they are heroes. They are no more heroes than the young 17yo working 8 hours a day packing shelves at Woolworths . What they do deserve, just like everyone out there doing a hard days work, is RESPECT. Unfortunately the respect is not there. I agree that airing footage of arrests, especially when edited by glory seeking journalists, does not help this. Neither does the speed camera fiasco that is sweeping Australia. But these are not the 99.9% of the officers that I refer to.
The word REASONABLE, is one the most definable and indefinable words in legislation throughout the world. Beyond reasonable doubt. What does this mean? What is reasonable doubt? What is beyond that doubt. There are volumes of case law which assist in defining REASONABLE. But there is no one clear definition.
Which moves me onto the ‘Use of Reasonable Force.’ Without quoting legislation, any person may use REASONABLE force to protect life and property, to effect lawful arrest , etc. But what is reasonable force. Is reasonable force shooting a burglar coming out a window and fleeing with a bag full of Cds. Obviously not. If this person had a knife and was fleeing from arrest is it RF to shoot him. Obviously not. If this person had a gun and was pointing it at someone is it RF to shoot him. Maybe. There are thousands of decision that have to be made in a split second. No legislation can define these decisions.
Unarmed offenders is where it becomes really complex. Is the same amount of force necessary, to subdue a 350 pound man, as it is to subdue a skinny 18 yo female involved in a cat fight. Sometimes it is. Most times it isn’t. The problem is, the danger is always there. This becomes more pertinent when people are under the influence of alcohol drugs etc or suffer from some mental illnesses where manic episodes and violence may occur. When I refer to the danger always being there, is that there are countless occasions where offenders have been subdued, everything appears calm and that same person goes off his/her tree again. This is where many officers have been seriously injured. For that reason it is why you often think, OK calm down copper, the problems solved. But the problem isn’t always solved just because someone has calmed down Most Police are aware of this and as such are always on guard.
Situation. 2 PO, 2.00 am, with no back up for lets say 1 hour, find a drunken male roaming the streets. This person is not causing any problems at the time, but the person is so drunk he doesn’t know where he is. Therefore he becomes a danger to himself. What do you do with this person.
a. Leave him on the streets, forget you ever saw him and go about your business, with the likelihood that you will receive a call later to deal with this man.
b. Arrest him for being drunk in a public place and lock him up until he is sober.
c. Stop, speak to the man, find out who he is where he lives and take him home. (to his not yours).
So lets say you go for option (c.) You stop get out of the car and approach this man. You discover that you know him, but do not know where he lives. You inform your partner that this bloke is OK, but can be dangerous. Is a renowned street fighter and martial arts expert. (if you can classify both together.) with a history of drunkenness and violence. Your danger level has obviously gone up. So you approach with caution but softly as your sole objective is to get this bloke off the streets. (so you can get back to your donuts). He complies after you speak to him and walks to the back of your car. You know who is so you don’t have to ask. But you are unsure where he lives, so rather than asking him you do a quick licence check and discover that he hasn’t updated his address. OK, no problems, you ask him. He tells you to f… off and wont tell you where he lives. After repeatedly telling him that we just want to take him home. He refuses. So what do you do next.
a. Stop the car, let him out and say have a nice day.
b. Lock him up for his and the publics safety .
Obviously (b.)
So you drive to the PS and get him out. Everything is fine. He actually appears quite happy to be locked up for the night. No problem. But has the danger level gone down? You are fully aware of the persons history. OK things are going quite smoothly and you walk him into the cell area. Suddenly this person smashes one of the PO’s head against the cell door, knocking him out.
Now 1 PO v 1 violent offender, with 1 PO unconscious on the ground. What reasonable force can now be used? Can you shoot him? Is it safe to even go for your firearm? You are in arms reach. Your mate is on the ground, dead for all you know. What do you do? So many questions, so little time. 2 possibly 3 lives at stake. What do you do? Now lets say a video is activated at this time. The video hasn’t picked up what has happened beforehand. No, it will only record the next events. The offender puts his hands up in the air and you are yelling and screaming at him to move away from your mate and get on the ground. What is the video recording? What is it saying? Its saying that some poor innocent man with his hands in the air is being screamed at by some psycho copper. What’s wrong with this d….. copper? The blokes doing nothing. The offender moves away from your mate and lays on the ground. What do you do next? Back up is an hour away so that’s out of the question. You don’t have spray, which if you did would only incite him, and you would run the risk of wearing it yourself, then game over. What do you do?. Your mates on the ground, hasn’t moved, you want to get him to hospital, you want to survive yourself. Do you try and handcuff him, knowing how quick he can change? Do you have the capabilities for unarmed fighting with him? You may be female, thus your odds are, on most occasions, worse. What do you do? The video is recording. It is all happening in a split second. What do you do? The video is showing a passive male on the ground, apparently causing no harm to anyone. What do you do? Lives at stake, video playing. What do you do?
Point of all this. You can be the judge.
In light of the latest video of US Police I pose this. (yes it was on another board, but I feel strongly about it thus chose to start a thread). So there.
A few thoughts up on my Soap Box.
What we all have to realise with Police Officers worldwide is that they are recruited from the human race and not robots designed in labs. Thus, human frailties come into play. 99.9% of officers are hard working honest people with husbands/wives, mother/fathers, brothers/sisters and children, just like the rest of us. 100% of them suffer from the human affliction of not being perfect. 99.9% of them turn up for work not knowing what dangers are ahead. 99.9% of wives, husbands, mothers, fathers, children etc of these officers say goodbye to them not knowing if they are coming home. So what, you may ask. These people choose this profession and know what they are getting themselves into. Yes I agree, but what type of society do we have without Law and Order (I don’t mean the TV show either). I am not saying they are heroes. They are no more heroes than the young 17yo working 8 hours a day packing shelves at Woolworths . What they do deserve, just like everyone out there doing a hard days work, is RESPECT. Unfortunately the respect is not there. I agree that airing footage of arrests, especially when edited by glory seeking journalists, does not help this. Neither does the speed camera fiasco that is sweeping Australia. But these are not the 99.9% of the officers that I refer to.
The word REASONABLE, is one the most definable and indefinable words in legislation throughout the world. Beyond reasonable doubt. What does this mean? What is reasonable doubt? What is beyond that doubt. There are volumes of case law which assist in defining REASONABLE. But there is no one clear definition.
Which moves me onto the ‘Use of Reasonable Force.’ Without quoting legislation, any person may use REASONABLE force to protect life and property, to effect lawful arrest , etc. But what is reasonable force. Is reasonable force shooting a burglar coming out a window and fleeing with a bag full of Cds. Obviously not. If this person had a knife and was fleeing from arrest is it RF to shoot him. Obviously not. If this person had a gun and was pointing it at someone is it RF to shoot him. Maybe. There are thousands of decision that have to be made in a split second. No legislation can define these decisions.
Unarmed offenders is where it becomes really complex. Is the same amount of force necessary, to subdue a 350 pound man, as it is to subdue a skinny 18 yo female involved in a cat fight. Sometimes it is. Most times it isn’t. The problem is, the danger is always there. This becomes more pertinent when people are under the influence of alcohol drugs etc or suffer from some mental illnesses where manic episodes and violence may occur. When I refer to the danger always being there, is that there are countless occasions where offenders have been subdued, everything appears calm and that same person goes off his/her tree again. This is where many officers have been seriously injured. For that reason it is why you often think, OK calm down copper, the problems solved. But the problem isn’t always solved just because someone has calmed down Most Police are aware of this and as such are always on guard.
Situation. 2 PO, 2.00 am, with no back up for lets say 1 hour, find a drunken male roaming the streets. This person is not causing any problems at the time, but the person is so drunk he doesn’t know where he is. Therefore he becomes a danger to himself. What do you do with this person.
a. Leave him on the streets, forget you ever saw him and go about your business, with the likelihood that you will receive a call later to deal with this man.
b. Arrest him for being drunk in a public place and lock him up until he is sober.
c. Stop, speak to the man, find out who he is where he lives and take him home. (to his not yours).
So lets say you go for option (c.) You stop get out of the car and approach this man. You discover that you know him, but do not know where he lives. You inform your partner that this bloke is OK, but can be dangerous. Is a renowned street fighter and martial arts expert. (if you can classify both together.) with a history of drunkenness and violence. Your danger level has obviously gone up. So you approach with caution but softly as your sole objective is to get this bloke off the streets. (so you can get back to your donuts). He complies after you speak to him and walks to the back of your car. You know who is so you don’t have to ask. But you are unsure where he lives, so rather than asking him you do a quick licence check and discover that he hasn’t updated his address. OK, no problems, you ask him. He tells you to f… off and wont tell you where he lives. After repeatedly telling him that we just want to take him home. He refuses. So what do you do next.
a. Stop the car, let him out and say have a nice day.
b. Lock him up for his and the publics safety .
Obviously (b.)
So you drive to the PS and get him out. Everything is fine. He actually appears quite happy to be locked up for the night. No problem. But has the danger level gone down? You are fully aware of the persons history. OK things are going quite smoothly and you walk him into the cell area. Suddenly this person smashes one of the PO’s head against the cell door, knocking him out.
Now 1 PO v 1 violent offender, with 1 PO unconscious on the ground. What reasonable force can now be used? Can you shoot him? Is it safe to even go for your firearm? You are in arms reach. Your mate is on the ground, dead for all you know. What do you do? So many questions, so little time. 2 possibly 3 lives at stake. What do you do? Now lets say a video is activated at this time. The video hasn’t picked up what has happened beforehand. No, it will only record the next events. The offender puts his hands up in the air and you are yelling and screaming at him to move away from your mate and get on the ground. What is the video recording? What is it saying? Its saying that some poor innocent man with his hands in the air is being screamed at by some psycho copper. What’s wrong with this d….. copper? The blokes doing nothing. The offender moves away from your mate and lays on the ground. What do you do next? Back up is an hour away so that’s out of the question. You don’t have spray, which if you did would only incite him, and you would run the risk of wearing it yourself, then game over. What do you do?. Your mates on the ground, hasn’t moved, you want to get him to hospital, you want to survive yourself. Do you try and handcuff him, knowing how quick he can change? Do you have the capabilities for unarmed fighting with him? You may be female, thus your odds are, on most occasions, worse. What do you do? The video is recording. It is all happening in a split second. What do you do? The video is showing a passive male on the ground, apparently causing no harm to anyone. What do you do? Lives at stake, video playing. What do you do?
Point of all this. You can be the judge.
