What is going on? Please explain.

[Joe-time]

Just reading some of the trade threads and looking back at some threads pre-fevola trade talk and I have to say that I'm kinda disappointed. Add It seems that a few posters feel that Johnson has let them down, or that he isn't up to standard, or that he is simply a dud. Add to that the recent "let's throw the baby out with the bath-water and trade Cloke to the scum for Fevola" and I'm pretty ashamed to be honest.

Regarding Johnson, why feel as though he has 'let us down'? The bloke loves the Pies with all that he has, as you most likely do. He would be the first to admit that he has not been hell-bent and driven to be the best at times, but who of you can honestly say that you haven't done the same thing, or aren't doing the same thing in your life right now? He has also rectified this. To say he isn't up to standard is just bogus. Towards the latter part of the year, and in particular the finals series, Johnson has been one of our most reliable players, certainly in our top ten. Some astute football judges would say that stats/posessions only tell part of the story. Kicked some important goals. Goals that I didn't expect him to. To say that he is simply a dud, well, I refute that with the fact that he has played 8-10(?) odd years of elite level football in the best 22 (mostly) of the biggest club in Australia.

To verbally bash a 22 year old in Cloke who has had a bloody rough year by anyone's standards, is also bogus.

I thought barracking for the Pies meant something. I thought it stood for loyalty, and sticking by each other, and talking ourselves up - even if we know better. They hate us, but we are a family - we are one and that's why I am so bloody proud to be a Pie.

At our core, we are a rag-tag bunch of misfits. The perennial underdogs, if you will. But we get by because outwardly, we always back each other in. No matter what.

Maybe football truly is a business now. And maybe the Collingwood brand has become bigger than the traditional heritage and attitudes. But for as long as I live I will go down swinging for our club and if it came down to it, I would argue until death with a Carlton supporter 100 reasons why Leigh Brown is better than Chris Judd (knowing inwardly otherwise).

What has happened to these values?

This is merely my feable attempt to try and re-ignite US.

 

[mattys123]

You will find the same people that are "bashing" Cloke and Johnson now are the same that have been negative about them all year.

I for one understand both players importance to our structure, and also am very confused by the constant mentions of trading Cloke for Fev.

Last time I checked there just aren't many CHF's in the league, and let alone ones that won a club B & F at 21 and played out of their arse in a prelim at the same age.

Travis Cloke is going nowhere, don't worry.

 

[FadeAway]

I second that, Cloke and Anthony wont be going anywhere.

Stanley and Cook will be going, with Beams and Sidebottom pushing for senior selection week in and out those two are in trouble.

Also, we have McCarthy and Blair who should be lifted off the rookie list now that the irish boys are off home.

 

[mattys123]

Also, we have McCarthy and Blair who should be lifted off the rookie list now that the irish boys are off home.

You are right there, and a little wrong, Blair will be promoted, maybe before this year's draft, maybe during next season, but McCarthy is already on our list, so no problem's with needing to promote him.

 

[Breakthelines]

You will find the same people that are "bashing" Cloke and Johnson now are the same that have been negative about them all year.

I for one understand both players importance to our structure, and also am very confused by the constant mentions of trading Cloke for Fev.

Last time I checked there just aren't many CHF's in the league, and let alone ones that won a club B & F at 21 and played out of their arse in a prelim at the same age.

Travis Cloke is going nowhere, don't worry.

Your not wrong.
And another one that is really got my fired up is the talk about trading Leon and Medhurst.

Leon killed it this year and was AA...plus signed a new deal toward the end of the year.
Medhurst was AA last year and was probably our best player....but the back problem preseason and the ankle didn't help his fitness....plus he is also contracted.

If we are going to have a crack at Fev it better be pick 14 & a player that we wouldn't miss. This talk about trading Cloke, Johnson, Leon, Medhurst, Reid, Anthony & N. Brown is a joke.

 

[TwisTz]

Your not wrong.
And another one that is really got my fired up is the talk about trading Leon and Medhurst.

Same here. They are both contracted and required players.

 

[Breakthelines]

Same here. They are both contracted and required players.

Thank god for that!

 

[mdc]

Regarding Johnson, why feel as though he has 'let us down'? The bloke loves the Pies with all that he has, as you most likely do. He would be the first to admit that he has not been hell-bent and driven to be the best at times, but who of you can honestly say that you haven't done the same thing, or aren't doing the same thing in your life right now? He has also rectified this.

To be honest, I've always found this line of thinking misguided. Whether or not a player loves the club, and whether or not he trains hard is really nothing more than a curiosity to me. All that the club should care about is their performance on the field.

To say he isn't up to standard is just bogus. Towards the latter part of the year, and in particular the finals series, Johnson has been one of our most reliable players, certainly in our top ten. Some astute football judges would say that stats/posessions only tell part of the story. Kicked some important goals. Goals that I didn't expect him to. To say that he is simply a dud, well, I refute that with the fact that he has played 8-10(?) odd years of elite level football in the best 22 (mostly) of the biggest club in Australia.

That's like, your opinion, man.

A lot of the folk that rate Johnson always seem to make the discussion personal, and then throw in "certainties" which are nothing more than opinion.

When it comes to midfielders or flankers, there are certain criteria I generally use to evaluate them. Boxes that need to be ticked. Above all, kicking. But also ability to win the hard ball, defensive accountability, tackling, decision-making, etc...

Johnson ticks none of these boxes for me. He does, however, run all day, which is one thing that Malthouse has always valued highly (overvalued imo), and as such Johnson maintains his spot in the side. Personally, I wish him no ill will. He seems like a nice enough bloke. But him in our 22 makes us a marginally worse side, in this humble poster's opinion.

 

[Joe-time]

I mostly agree MDC. In a perfect world Johno would be pushed out of our 22 and used as a fringe/bit player. I sorta got carried away a bit here, but my main point is that you/we can evaluate him internally. But just that - evaluate. I'm just not sure why so many people seem to be 'bagging/bashing' our lesser lights. Especially externally.

With Johnson, we all know he is flawed skill-wise. But I value, as I think we should as a club/organisation/entity, heart and determination and fight and the ability to perform above average when it really matters. Johno does this, if nothing else.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Your not wrong.
And another one that is really got my fired up is the talk about trading Leon and Medhurst.

Leon killed it this year and was AA...plus signed a new deal toward the end of the year.
Medhurst was AA last year and was probably our best player....but the back problem preseason and the ankle didn't help his fitness....plus he is also contracted.

If we are going to have a crack at Fev it better be pick 14 & a player that we wouldn't miss. This talk about trading Cloke, Johnson, Leon, Medhurst, Reid, Anthony & N. Brown is a joke.

Thank God fỏr a bitta commónsénse. Some folk on thís boảrd have bloody short memories. As for Johnson, I find him one of our most infuriating players & wouldn't be devistated to see the back of him.

 

[G.O.B]

To say that he is simply a dud, well, I refute that with the fact that he has played 8-10(?) odd years of elite level football in the best 22 (mostly) of the biggest club in Australia.
Biggest doesn't equate to best. The fact that Johnson is still in our best 22 goes some way to explaining why we still haven't won a premiership since 1990.

I thought barracking for the Pies meant something. I thought it stood for loyalty, and sticking by each other, and talking ourselves up - even if we know better. They hate us, but we are a family - we are one and that's why I am so bloody proud to be a Pie.
Mate, the Collingwood Football Club should be all about winning Flags. Everything else is secondary to this pursuit.

Maybe football truly is a business now. And maybe the Collingwood brand has become bigger than the traditional heritage and attitudes. But for as long as I live I will go down swinging for our club and if it came down to it, I would argue until death with a Carlton supporter 100 reasons why Leigh Brown is better than Chris Judd (knowing inwardly otherwise).
What has happened to these values?
A quick look through our early history would show you that our club used to be absolutely ruthless in it's pursuit of a flag. Any other result was seen as a failure. Any player that was not deemed good enough was quickly shown the door and replaced by one who could meet the required standard.

Answers in bold.

 

[LennyLeonard]

I second that, Cloke and Anthony wont be going anywhere.

Stanley and Cook will be going, with Beams and Sidebottom pushing for senior selection week in and out those two are in trouble.

Also, we have McCarthy and Blair who should be lifted off the rookie list now that the irish boys are off home.

This is the reason you guys never land the big fish. To get quality you have to give up quality.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

To be honest, I've always found this line of thinking misguided. Whether or not a player loves the club, and whether or not he trains hard is really nothing more than a curiosity to me. All that the club should care about is their performance on the field.



That's like, your opinion, man.

A lot of the folk that rate Johnson always seem to make the discussion personal, and then throw in "certainties" which are nothing more than opinion.

When it comes to midfielders or flankers, there are certain criteria I generally use to evaluate them. Boxes that need to be ticked. Above all, kicking. But also ability to win the hard ball, defensive accountability, tackling, decision-making, etc...

Johnson ticks none of these boxes for me. He does, however, run all day, which is one thing that Malthouse has always valued highly (overvalued imo), and as such Johnson maintains his spot in the side. Personally, I wish him no ill will. He seems like a nice enough bloke. But him in our 22 makes us a marginally worse side, in this humble poster's opinion.

DING DING DING DING DING.

And to put it less eloquently. Johnson is useless, and has been for MANY years. Hell, he wanted to be traded to North Melbourne last year, but caved at the last minute, lucky for him.

One thing I realised VERY late in the year is that we will NEVER win a flag with players like Johnson, Lockyer, O'Bree and Toovey in our starting 22. It just won't happen.

Geelongs worst player (Varcoe? Hogan? Wojinski? help me out any Cats fans) is better than all 4 of them.

 

[Kirby]

I think what mdc says sums up Johnson perfectly. Not much more to add on my part.

I do agree on this ridiculous ranting about trading Cloke off. It is just a nonsense. We could never trade hime unless we could replace him with an equal or better player and how is that going to happen? Some people here are very prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I guess this is an open forum where anyone can type out their largely misguided views which is why I only pay much attention to a handful of posters here whose opinions I value and respect.

 

[Koki Freelander]

This is the reason you guys never land the big fish. To get quality you have to give up quality.

Thanks for clearing that up. Now tell me, is the reason Carlton almost never make the finals because of this too, or are there other reasons for that?


The article in The Australian (so it is almost certainly untrue) suggests that Collingwood are not prepared to offer their first round pick or a player. I sort of "feel" that is Fevola was to come to the Pies it would sit oddly with me. This has not been Collingwood's style - old for young. Last night, Fox Sports had me thinking he was likely to come (including he wants to come to the Pies). But if Brissy's offer is true - Bradshaw and pick 12, then surely that will happen.

Ironically the same article says something to the effect that Fev would not want to uproot his family to Sydney but they did not apply the same logic to moving to Brisbane.

 

[Magpies 2009]

Cloke needs one more year. To prove that season 09 was was due to external influences out of his control.
What he has had to endure as a 22 year old, over the last 12 months, would have had a SERIOUSLY negative impact on most, if not all of us. My understanding is that we don't even know about half of what has gone on in his life this year.
TRAVIS WILL BE A FORCE NEXT YEAR!

 

[twoforjoy]

Same here. They are both contracted and required players.

Absolutely - I'm amazed at how little loyalty there is for these boys

Leon might have had a poor finals series but he absolutely carved it up during the year. He did it all. I think he was carrying an injury in the finals.

We all know that Medders had no pre-season and together with that ankle injury in Rnd 3 his 2009 was shot to sh**t. But when he is fit and going and takes a game on he is one dangerous dangerous man.

These 2 are magicians are not for sale. XXXX factor to burn

Also can't believe that anyone would want to get rid of Cloke - the kid will tear it up when he is 25-27 years old. Yes he had a stinky 2009, but he is a talented kid who works hard even when things don't go his way. I honestly think he will be as good as Riewoldt if not better.

 

[LennyLeonard]

Thanks for clearing that up. Now tell me, is the reason Carlton almost never make the finals because of this too, or are there other reasons for that?

I thought we were all in the business of winning Flags? It's great to play finals but surely the aim is to win flags.

 

[domus]

If Collingwood don't have a dip at Fevola I will be very disappointed. Sometimes going the youth path is a big cushy copout. It allows coaches and recruiters to continually excuse defeats and failure to win finals under the "we are building for the future and these games will provide our young boys with invaluable experience" banner. Pardon my cynicism but can someone explain to me how any player at Collingwood would learn anything from our thumping at the hands of Geelong in the prelim? Aside from learning you are not good enough (yet) the crowd factor is irrelevant cause our boys play in front of huge crowds all the time.
Surely Fraser and Co. should have learned so many lessons they should be superstars by now!
St Kilda were within a kick and a lucky bounce of winning a flag on the back of some seasoned, experienced recruits from other clubs. If we draft another three skinny kids and get told how good they will be in five years time I think I'll cry.

 

[daics cousin]

Yes keep our team together,
Remember carlton are the desperate ones.
We should just offer pick 14 and say to carlton we will look after Fevs pay packet,but no players,pick 14 and we take over his contract otherwise see ya ! Carlton can keep him and look like fools.

The thing is with fev's contract becuase it is back ended most of the cash has to be paid to him,in his last year 900 k i believe a lot for an older player.

We must remember fev will be 29 next year.only has 2 years left at best.
What i understand is that if it was up to Eddie we would get him ,but i believe Buckley and Malthouse don't really want him.

 

[PendlesIsAStar]

Just reading some of the trade threads and looking back at some threads pre-fevola trade talk and I have to say that I'm kinda disappointed. Add It seems that a few posters feel that Johnson has let them down, or that he isn't up to standard, or that he is simply a dud. Add to that the recent "let's throw the baby out with the bath-water and trade Cloke to the scum for Fevola" and I'm pretty ashamed to be honest.

Regarding Johnson, why feel as though he has 'let us down'? The bloke loves the Pies with all that he has, as you most likely do. He would be the first to admit that he has not been hell-bent and driven to be the best at times, but who of you can honestly say that you haven't done the same thing, or aren't doing the same thing in your life right now? He has also rectified this. To say he isn't up to standard is just bogus. Towards the latter part of the year, and in particular the finals series, Johnson has been one of our most reliable players, certainly in our top ten. Some astute football judges would say that stats/posessions only tell part of the story. Kicked some important goals. Goals that I didn't expect him to. To say that he is simply a dud, well, I refute that with the fact that he has played 8-10(?) odd years of elite level football in the best 22 (mostly) of the biggest club in Australia.

To verbally bash a 22 year old in Cloke who has had a bloody rough year by anyone's standards, is also bogus.

I thought barracking for the Pies meant something. I thought it stood for loyalty, and sticking by each other, and talking ourselves up - even if we know better. They hate us, but we are a family - we are one and that's why I am so bloody proud to be a Pie.

At our core, we are a rag-tag bunch of misfits. The perennial underdogs, if you will. But we get by because outwardly, we always back each other in. No matter what.

Maybe football truly is a business now. And maybe the Collingwood brand has become bigger than the traditional heritage and attitudes. But for as long as I live I will go down swinging for our club and if it came down to it, I would argue until death with a Carlton supporter 100 reasons why Leigh Brown is better than Chris Judd (knowing inwardly otherwise).

What has happened to these values?

This is merely my feable attempt to try and re-ignite US.

I thought we lived in Australia where people were free to express their opinions as long as they don't incite violence and didn't fall into the category of being racist etc.

Surely people's opinions about wanting players traded etc are allowed to be heard just like those who continually shout "yay team" regardless of where we are placed.

People wanting to trade a particular player love their club no less than those who wish to hold on to all our players because they love them all and can't part with any of them.

If you're after a culture whereby 100% of the people follow direction 100% of the time then maybe a democracy is not for you and there a plenty of dictatorships around the planet looking for more sheep to ride roughshod over.

What if Cloke was traded - what would your opinion of the club be then? If you support everything they do then you would obviously support this too, if not then you'd better not leave a negative post on here without first offering apologies to those you've bagged for not being 100% positive, 100% of the time.

Clubs need to make hard calls, sometimes on beloved players - that's life but they do it believing it's going to help the club. It's exactly like the fans who want to see trades done - they're more than likely fans who've followed the club for decades and want to see a bit more in the trophy cabinet instead of worrying about players feelings and those of thin skinned fellow supporters.

As for my opinion on Fevola, he'll come at a cost and would also throw our forward line into a bit of chaos until they can work out a way of playing him amongst many other dangerous targets. He's probably more trouble than he's worth but I believe this is just a smokescreen from Carlton to look like they are trying to get rid of Fevola but really only trying to scare the life out of him. He'll stay a Blue unless Carlton are prepared to move him on for far less than what they think he's worth.

 

[Joe-time]

I thought we lived in Australia where people were free to express their opinions as long as they don't incite violence and didn't fall into the category of being racist etc.
We are. We do. You are being hypocritical. My post is my opinion which you are refuting. Which is simply what I did.

Surely people's opinions about wanting players traded etc are allowed to be heard just like those who continually shout "yay team" regardless of where we are placed.
In my opinion these opinions should be internal. People hate us for a reason. I just love this part of being a Pie. You make a fair point though.

People wanting to trade a particular player love their club no less than those who wish to hold on to all our players because they love them all and can't part with any of them.
Debatable. But yeah, ok. I'm just of the 'side by side' philosophy no matter what, until they are gone. You are not the recruitment department or the coaching staff. Neither am I. All subjective.

If you're after a culture whereby 100% of the people follow direction 100% of the time then maybe a democracy is not for you and there a plenty of dictatorships around the planet looking for more sheep to ride roughshod over.
There are so many different structural levels and a hierarchy in football with some if not most of the dividing lines blurred. I think it's drawing a long bow, if not blatantly incorrect, to compare a culture to a democracy/dictatorship.

What if Cloke was traded - what would your opinion of the club be then? If you support everything they do then you would obviously support this too, if not then you'd better not leave a negative post on here without first offering apologies to those you've bagged for not being 100% positive, 100% of the time.
If Cloke was traded I honestly would support the decision outwardly. I would question it with every sense of logic I had inwardly, and I do think it would be moronic at best. But I have the utmost trust in Mick, Bucks and Eddie and the rest to make the right call. If I honestly had to choose 3 people in the world to make that decision, they would be it, and I do trust them.

Clubs need to make hard calls, sometimes on beloved players - that's life but they do it believing it's going to help the club. It's exactly like the fans who want to see trades done - they're more than likely fans who've followed the club for decades and want to see a bit more in the trophy cabinet instead of worrying about players feelings and those of thin skinned fellow supporters.
Wouldn't the inverse be true? What about fans that want to develop kids with an eye to the future? Neither path has proved to be 100% succesful. You may be right or wrong. I may be right or wrong. It's all a debate, so I'm not sure why you use that tone and slightly slanderous remarks about not having 'thick skin'. If this is how it's gonna be, how about I suggest to you that those who want to trade want a 'quick fix' and have no nuts to back themselves in and develop their own?

As for my opinion on Fevola, he'll come at a cost and would also throw our forward line into a bit of chaos until they can work out a way of playing him amongst many other dangerous targets. He's probably more trouble than he's worth but I believe this is just a smokescreen from Carlton to look like they are trying to get rid of Fevola but really only trying to scare the life out of him. He'll stay a Blue unless Carlton are prepared to move him on for far less than what they think he's worth.
Apparently it's already been done in principle. Money now the only stumbling block. We shall see, I suppose...

There you go.

 

[Koki Freelander]

Thanks for clearing that up. Now tell me, is the reason Carlton almost never make the finals because of this too, or are there other reasons for that?

I thought we were all in the business of winning Flags? It's great to play finals but surely the aim is to win flags.

Oh yes, my apologies, I forgot Carlton excel in that category. I don't buy into the idea that some Carlton supporters spread that coming second is worse than coming last. I like making the finals. It makes me proud. Finishing last is no sources of pride for anyone except apparently Carlton supporters

Gotta make the finals to win premierships champ. Can't do it from last place and by making mistakes with the number 1 picks

 

[PendlesIsAStar]

There you go.

That's fine Joe, maybe some fans are just getting a bit tired of always going close without getting the cigar.

Whether we keep our opinions to ourselves if they unfavourable to players or whether we air them out for all to see isn't going to make a great deal of difference to the club - or it shouldn't anyway.

We've in the past overlooked players who may or may not have helped us win some of the flags we could have won because of pressure from fans - remember Lockett.

My main issue is why should someone who ultimately wants to see the team win a flag, like you no doubt do too, have their loyalty questioned.

For Collingwood fans who wish success (i.e - a flag) yesterday they would rightly wonder why a big fish has never been landed. If all our young recruits in the last 20 years were all guns we'd be enjoying a bit more success but we haven't hence the "baby with the bathwater" suggestions from some fans.

Next year will be Collingwood's 20th anniversary of the 1990 GF win. That's 20 years and I don't know about you but I think that's way too long to go between drinks given it took 33 years to win that one and I couldn't care less whether St.Kilda or the Western Bulldogs haven't won in twice that long, I think we're better than that. We'll we're supposed to be better than that and ultimately the measure of success of any team, in any sport is it's ability to win Grand Finals. We're more famous for losing them and me saying that publicly doesn't mean I'm disloyal.

I didn't mean to offend with my thin skinned call, like I said I'm sure we're all after the same thing.

 

[Breakthelines]

Apart from delistings and retirements i think that Collingwood are reluctant to trade any young and valued players.

The likes of Leon, Cloke, Medhurst, Thomas, fraser, Dick, N.Brown, Anthony, Reid, Dawes & Johnson are required players that have had a lot of development and time put into them.

I think that we would have offered Pick #14 & pick #30 and possibly someone like Cook, Stanley or Cox.