Analysis What is the problem: Strategy or players?

[Black_White]

I wrote this in the match day thread.

Watch closely how when the purple get the ball all our guys start running to the ball carrier.
The purples run away from the ball carrier and are then open to receive.
When we get the ball the purples man us up and rely on the ball carriers opponent to apply pressure.
Its why we always look awful,with the close In handballs.
Need to tidy this up.

It’s an issue that is a recurring theme with our games.
And it’s something that should have been addressed by the coaching panel by now.

 

[chop_me]

In answer to the OP, its a really strong blend of both.

Which is highly problematic.

I don’t recall being this upset when we had previous lists with players who are genuinely not up to scratch (Lee Walker, Damian Atkins etc. Can’t remember how long ago that was.).

I just feel as though we are not getting the most out of this current list of players, which is the most disheartening part.




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[chop_me]

Clearly strategy.. when you've got whe and thomas snagging sausage rolls like they're going out of fashion.. and the likes of Phillips tearing it up.. in 2018.. followed by an 18 mth disappearing act.. well what the fu** do you think? They're sh*t? No. How can all play well in 2018.. then drop away in form as badly as they have?

Strategy in 2018 similar to 2019 and 2020s?

Strategy and hell.

Yep. Can’t help but question why there is a clear deviation in our strategy this year.


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[loki04]

A bunch of problems:

(1) We’re not gelling as a team. How many times tonight did a pass get missed, or a tap to a player that wasn’t there? Poor chemistry. Not clean with the footy. Lots of stop/start, not backing ourselves, allowing opposition to get back. Not surprising given the absence of players like Pendlebury and Howe.

(2) Last two weeks our opposition have played out of their skins on their home
deck in front of their home crowd, in a season where that is a very rare privilege.

(3) We don’t have hussle in our forward line. A bunch of times over the last few weeks we’ve had the ball locked up in our forward line forever, not able to convert, only to have the opposition eventually bomb it out and kick an easy goal in a vacant forward line.

(4) Not running back ... too many slingshot goals to the opposition.

(5) Young and inexperienced backline. Over the last few weeks Quaynor, Atu and Keane have made a bunch of mistakes that have lead to opposition goals.

You believe in our gameplan?

Also do you like watching us? separate question but kinda important from a spectator sport.

Even in our wins this year I have not really enjoyed our brand of footy.

 

[chop_me]

You believe in our gameplan?

Also do you like watching us? separate question but kinda important from a spectator sport.

Even in our wins this year I have not really enjoyed our brand of footy.

When the individual form of so many players “fall off a cliff”, it cannot be a coincidence. It must be the game plan.


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[saha]

You believe in our gameplan?

Also do you like watching us? separate question but kinda important from a spectator sport.

Even in our wins this year I have not really enjoyed our brand of footy.

I think at our best when we are winning clearances, applying pressure on the ball carrier, maintaining good shape behind the ball and slingshotting quickly we are actually decent to watch.

The problem is, and has been in recent seasons, that as soon as other teams make us deviate from the way we want to play we struggle. That’s good coaching from the opposition and something we need to get on top of.

I think our strategy is fine given the personnel we have, but when you don’t win it at the source and then compound it with being fumbly, our-pressured and losing defensive structure we will be made to look average.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Buckley’s mates. Harvey & Sanderson


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Yep. I actually think we have more forwardline and ball movement problems than midfield but its time for Harvey and Sanderson to move on. Buckley too, but i would let him run out his contract.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

I don’t recall being this upset when we had previous lists with players who are genuinely not up to scratch (Lee Walker, Damian Atkins etc. Can’t remember how long ago that was.).

I just feel as though we are not getting the most out of this current list of players, which is the most disheartening part.




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I agree with this sentiment - getting frustrated at guys like Josh Thomas every week is absurd. We know he's not up to it, as does he.

Its guys like Treloar, Mayne, Phillips, Hoskin-Elliott, Daicos, Stephenson, Varcoe etc. who are the issue.

Even our $1m man, Grundy, looks like a complete spanner at the moment.

 

[adammania9]

Official AFL Website of the Collingwood Football Club

The official AFL website of the Collingwood Football Club

www.collingwoodfc.com.au

Robert Harvey - "Midfield and Transition". Lol is he the worst assistant coach going around?

Very good reason he's been an assistant for 10 years and in that time, no club has come knocking for his services. Garbage coach.

 

[76woodenspooners]

You believe in our gameplan?

Yes.

If Howe and Pendlebury had been playing nobody would be questioning the gameplan.

Also do you like watching us? separate question but kinda important from a spectator sport.

TBH, I enjoy watching us more when we’re winning ... but gotta be grateful for any footy at the moment. All the more so given I was in the pub this afternoon with the TV showing a rugby league game and Collingwood puts on a much better show.

Even in our wins this year I have not really enjoyed our brand of footy.

Yeah, there hasn’t been too much in the way of cracking goals after quarter time. Our forward line hasn’t been firing too this season ...

Mihocek has been our only consistent forward ...

...DeGoey has missed a bunch of footy. Stephenson missed the start of the season and has been largely playing in the backline. Cox and JT have had a poor season. Atu, T.Brown are beginners. Who have I missed?

 

[chop_me]

Yes.

If Howe and Pendlebury had been playing nobody would be questioning the gameplan.

It is now apparent that the current game plan requires our best 22 to execute. This is fine but what is the plan when/if we can’t field our best 22? There has to be a plan B if we know plan A cannot be executed with the current team.



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[HFF]

The thing is, Nathan will change the style when the pressure comes for him and then we will see an attacking style.
This will then give him the security he needs to then take over yet again with this garbage he has served up for almost 2 seasons now.

how can we have a midfield like we do and a quality fleet of medium forwards and not score freely?

Again, Nathan was spoken to at half time and all he spoke about was contested ball.

We get burnt on the outside as we have plodder type outsiders like Phillips and Mayne.

 

[sr36]

I wrote this in the match day thread.


It’s an issue that is a recurring theme with our games.
And it’s something that should have been addressed by the coaching panel by now.

Interstingly. The opposite occurred in 2018.

 

[barrackers]

Hub
The endless hub isn't helping. Just look at WC and how shit they were when there was no end insight. We were okay when the players had a date to leave. Now nope. Sure, we're not the only club in a hub, but that doesn't mean we're handling it well.

EDIT: On hubs Crisp said in his youtube video that the players weren't using the game room as much and were spending more time in their rooms. This suggests the novelty has worn off. We also relocated to a city hotel before the WC game.

Confidence/form, over coaching or both?
The players also don't seem confident in their decision making. There were several turnovers, which resulted in opposition goals tonight due to the wrong decision being made. Thomas and Elliott also should have backed themselves to kick the goal instead of looking inboard to a contest.

Defensive pressure
WC kicked 18.3, Freo 10.1. We're letting clubs run it out of forward line and into theirs with no pressure along the way. We certainly didn't work hard enough against WC and although improved it was still lacking tonight.

Forward structure
Despite being smashed in the clearances, we still had more inside 50s and more scoring shots tonight. We're not going to kick enough goals with our current forward structure. Mihocek and Cameron both do well when leading up to the wings; Hoskin-Elliott is the only other who leads up to the wing. The problem is with one of Mihocek or Cameron up the ground we only have one tall inside 50. Neither of whom has a great presence. This means our smaller players like Stephenson and Hoskin-Elliott are competing in the air instead of being front and centre to rove the pack.

Game plan
We're too hesitant once it's in our front half with a preference to go sideways instead of kicking it long. The slow ball movement coupled with a lack of forward presence creates a lack of separation from each other and the opposition. Just look what happened when we moved the ball quickly late in the third.

Midfield
That Elliott (centre) and Noble (wing) were clearly our most dangerous mids tonight is telling. Treloar has got into a habit of panic handballs or throws. Daicos was a revelation, but hasn't found the same form after his ankle injury.

 

[KillerMagpies]

Freo's missing gun KPDs in Pearce, Hamling and Logue. Gun KPFs like Kennedy, Darling and Hawkins feasted on Freo's second unit defense and the Pies not having a good KPF who can crash packs hurt you's. I'd like to see next season of either one of Wright or Ben Brown be the main target with Kelly at CHF so it allows Checkers to play as the third tall with De Goey, Stephenson, Hoskin-Elliot and J.Elliot to play more of a crumbing role and only lead up when the forward line is open next season.

Well said.
2-Metre-Peter and maybe have a crack @ Himmelberg from GWS?

 

[Visions]

100% strategy for me. As evidenced by the fact that a significantly worse list than this one came within a kick of the flag two years ago.

Bucks lost the players through over-coaching in the dark years of 2014, '15, '16, '17. They didn't know what they were meant to be doing. They played like robots, fighting their natural urges, instead of just realizing that sometimes you have to f*cking play on and move the ball fast, on instinct, without a safety net, without a plan.

Then we saw the light! For a glorious year we started throwing caution to the wind, and lo and behold, we started scoring! Freely! WHE kicked 7! JT kicked 5 against the Tigers! Mason Cox put together the best Preliminary Final by a key forward pretty much ever!

So what did we do?

...we f*cking changed all that. We debuted a "high skill" gameplan in 2019 that prioritized possession above all else. We held onto the footy with pinpoint short passes. We stopped moving forward at breakneck speed. And it stopped our opposition scoring as much! But it completely crippled us.

And the worst thing that could have happened was that we beat Richmond early in the year with that gameplan, so it was validated as the right way to go, and we haven't been the same team since.

Fast forward to 2020, and we've taken it even further in the wrong direction. We refuse to attempt a pass forward unless it's got a 100% chance of success. The result is we don't move forward at all, and eventually bomb the thing long to an outnumber against a side that's had 90 seconds to flood back.

The simple fact is that if this side was playing under 2018's strategic setup, we'd be sitting on 8 wins on top of the ladder. But instead, we've contented ourselves with a bore-draw against the Tiggies, a "noble loss" against GWS, and diabolically poor outings against Freo and Essendon where our stubborn refuse to move forward at pace has made us look below second-rate.

Ugh. This team, man. The list might not be the best in the league, but the strategy? It's the stupidest by the length of the Flemington Straight.

This post x 100.

Buckley’s boring game plan is a staple of his coaching, everyone knows what it is and that he doesn’t change it. The one year he did, we almost pinched a flag.

Instead of pursuing the game plan which worked, the moron decided to challenge himself and execute the boring game plan again with himself being the only person who would expect a different result than the other painful years watching him fail at it.

People out there suggest he has a high football IQ. I seriously haven’t seen it.

He should be involved in a Nigerian scam racket. He is a fantastic conman who has the media and league convinced he’s somehow a top notch coach when it’s so far from the truth.

 

[Markfs]

i have a friend high up in government and he says that there's a strong link between what's happening at collingwood and the rollout of 5G...

 

[Captivating]

Very good reason he's been an assistant for 10 years and in that time, no club has come knocking for his services. Garbage coach.

Could argue the same thing about our Senior Coach. Doesn't stop the President extending his contract to avoid contractual distractions.

 

[TKiL]

Hub
The endless hub isn't helping. Just look at WC and how sh*t they were when there was no end insight. We were okay when the players had a date to leave. Now nope. Sure, we're not the only club in a hub, but that doesn't mean we're handling it well.

EDIT: On hubs Crisp said in his youtube video that the players weren't using the game room as much and were spending more time in their rooms. This suggests the novelty has worn off. We also relocated to a city hotel before the WC game.

Confidence/form, over coaching or both?
The players also don't seem confident in their decision making. There were several turnovers, which resulted in opposition goals tonight due to the wrong decision being made. Thomas and Elliott also should have backed themselves to kick the goal instead of looking inboard to a contest.

Defensive pressure
WC kicked 18.3, Freo 10.1. We're letting clubs run it out of forward line and into theirs with no pressure along the way. We certainly didn't work hard enough against WC and although improved it was still lacking tonight.

Forward structure
Despite being smashed in the clearances, we still had more inside 50s and more scoring shots tonight. We're not going to kick enough goals with our current forward structure. Mihocek and Cameron both do well when leading up to the wings; Hoskin-Elliott is the only other who leads up to the wing. The problem is with one of Mihocek or Cameron up the ground we only have one tall inside 50. Neither of whom has a great presence. This means our smaller players like Stephenson and Hoskin-Elliott are competing in the air instead of being front and centre to rove the pack.

Game plan
We're too hesitant once it's in our front half with a preference to go sideways instead of kicking it long. The slow ball movement coupled with a lack of forward presence creates a lack of separation from each other and the opposition. Just look what happened when we moved the ball quickly late in the third.

Midfield
That Elliott (centre) and Noble (wing) were clearly our most dangerous mids tonight is telling. Treloar has got into a habit of panic handballs or throws. Daicos was a revelation, but hasn't found the same form after his ankle injury.

HUB?? - it ain't the hub!
Kokoda and El Alamein were hubs mate - and... the tough bastards won both times
We ain't got no tough bastards - plenty of talking bastards but no TOUGH BASTARDS - certainly not the team or the club as a whole

EFA

 

[TKiL]

i have a friend high up in government and he says that there's a strong link between what's happening at collingwood and the rollout of 5G...

Pies have been in flag lockdown for decades - snuk out to break curfew once or twice but overall - FLAG LOCKDOWN

 

[peter9789]

Most of the posts here hit the market touching on many of the key issues around strategy and our list

But I think there is an underlying leadership vacuum at the Club.

- Ed, as magnificent as he has been for the club over the years, is hopelessly conflicted, between his media role and club presidency. How many times have we cringed at his remarks? His foot in mouth comments have come back to hurt the club this year such as his early season stance on players breaching COVID 19 restrictions - until its one of his own.

- The senior coaches caught breaching hub protocol to have a game of tennis - what did they miss the memo! What a poor message to the playing group they are leading.

- The Vice Captain of the club found breaching COVID 19 restrictions, and drunk lying in the street mid week before a game no less. Is this the leadership we seek?

- Jordan “I won’t let you down” DeGoey with numerous run ins with Police, not withstanding his current charges he is yet to face court on.

The examples of faltering leadership are everywhere throughout the club, and for an elite sporting club we should be expecting better.

I know every club has its challenges, but we have more of our own making than most.

Losing is one thing, but to lose in the manner we have over the past few weeks just grates my gears. The players are hardly doing it tough compared to so many families through Victoria and elsewhere.


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[Timmy from Thomastown]

Players. Not enough youth and the youth we do have are not getting opportunities.

Too many wasted list spots on senior players who are basically dead wood. We could have started the year without Thomas Beams Varcoe Reid Briomhead and Dunn and arguably even Greenwood and been no worse off than we are. If even half these list spots had been made available for younger players we’d possibly have a brighter future.

And this gets borne out when arguably our three best players are missing

We are not a better team without Mason Cox as he is our only target on the list. That is an indictment in itself that we have very few options. The injury to Kelly hurts a lot too. Maybe it’s time to swing Moore forward.

Time to play some of the few younger kids we do have. Appleby Murphy and Rantall for starters. And maybe one last chance for Broomhead.

 

[gouki88]

100% strategy for me. As evidenced by the fact that a significantly worse list than this one came within a kick of the flag two years ago.

Bucks lost the players through over-coaching in the dark years of 2014, '15, '16, '17. They didn't know what they were meant to be doing. They played like robots, fighting their natural urges, instead of just realizing that sometimes you have to f*cking play on and move the ball fast, on instinct, without a safety net, without a plan.

Then we saw the light! For a glorious year we started throwing caution to the wind, and lo and behold, we started scoring! Freely! WHE kicked 7! JT kicked 5 against the Tigers! Mason Cox put together the best Preliminary Final by a key forward pretty much ever!

So what did we do?

...we f*cking changed all that. We debuted a "high skill" gameplan in 2019 that prioritized possession above all else. We held onto the footy with pinpoint short passes. We stopped moving forward at breakneck speed. And it stopped our opposition scoring as much! But it completely crippled us.

And the worst thing that could have happened was that we beat Richmond early in the year with that gameplan, so it was validated as the right way to go, and we haven't been the same team since.

Fast forward to 2020, and we've taken it even further in the wrong direction. We refuse to attempt a pass forward unless it's got a 100% chance of success. The result is we don't move forward at all, and eventually bomb the thing long to an outnumber against a side that's had 90 seconds to flood back.

The simple fact is that if this side was playing under 2018's strategic setup, we'd be sitting on 8 wins on top of the ladder. But instead, we've contented ourselves with a bore-draw against the Tiggies, a "noble loss" against GWS, and diabolically poor outings against Freo and Essendon where our stubborn refuse to move forward at pace has made us look below second-rate.

Ugh. This team, man. The list might not be the best in the league, but the strategy? It's the stupidest by the length of the Flemington Straight.

Brilliant post. Hit the nail on the head

 

[manicpie]

Same problem as the last 60years, we overrate our players, coaches and staff, and ffs get rid of hine

 

[LuckyLee]

Handball can be used to devastating effect when delivered with width to outside players already on the move.

What we saw against Freo was the opposite of that. Time after time after time we saw handballs from 1-2m, or loopy over-the-top floaters, to stationary team-mates who were immediately crunched in tackles, with the ball usually spilling free into the waiting hands of Fremantle speedsters. If I wasn’t so angry, it would have been comical. Cue the Benny Hill music.

Blind Freddy can see it. That our senior and midfield coaches (who have three Brownlows between them), cannot see it, or get our players to understand and execute it, is extraordinary and damning.


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