What is Wrong with John Howard's IR Laws?

[1jasonoz]

It would seem these workers did nothing wrong and are being royally screwed over by an asswipe of an employer.

However, whilst this is indeed a sad story, what does it have to do with the merits of the IR laws.

Previous to the reforms of this government it was illegal for an employer to charge a bargaining fee to employees who wanted a job; now its legal.

Previous to these laws an employee could contact a union to come and assist them with these types of employers; now an employee must provide a letter to their employer, informing them that they intend to request a union attend the site, state what reasons, what part of the ACT, and give 24 hours notice.

The union rep then has be a person that has been vetted by the governments authority, provide a letter to the advocate informing them of the reason they are attending a site, who asked for them to attend, what grounds/part of the Act they are attending over.

The employer can stop this access even if requested by the workers/allowed by the advocate, they can also allow the union to attend but on the proviso they walk only on designated paths, sit in designated areas, and a failure to comply with this can see the rep placed on a list banning them from attending a work site again.

Democracy Hey!!

 

[nokiacasio]

Interesting that whilst this issue doesn't resonate with the whole population it will resonate with enough to toss Howard out.

It really depends on what sort of issues people focus on. It is common for people to vote on issues that have little to do with their own welfare, e.g. to vote on cultural or symbolic issues. Studies show that poorer people and possible unskilled people are more likely to be patriotic because it provides a way the individual can boost self-esteem. All Howard needs to do is to make people afraid that their country is under threat by environmentalists or Muslims or whatever and the voters will think about the good of the nation instead of their own pockets, and they will vote for Howard.

 

[Richo83]

The argument that people should just stop being so slack and gain some more skills is incredibly short-sighted and flawed.

A man decides to cut back on sickies and gains more skills. (which costs money BTW, not everyone can just leave the kids and the mortgage and start studying) However, the employer decides that even though he can do more things, it would be better if he could do those things on casual rate pay. End result is the man is more skilled in his area of work yet is being payed less. Now tell me, who's fault is this?

The assumption that people are just lazy and should be fired is another fallacy. Most Australians are hard working, decent people, yet for some businesses they are not willing to pay them the rates of a full-time employee. They shift them onto lesser work loads and lesser pay rates. This isn't the fault of the worker, simply the fact that employees have more power in these situations. In areas where pay can be negotiable, basically the the hard-working man who has the necessary skills for the job has to agree to the rates determined by the employee, otherwise he doesn't get the job? Now tell me, who's fault is this? Why is it that we assume that anyone who has a problem with these laws is either lazy or a bleeding-heart liberal? I ask again, how about the meat-workers in NSW who were fired and then re-hired on casual rates for no reason other than the employee could do so and it was more cost effective?

 

[bmwofoz]

The argument that people should just stop being so slack and gain some more skills is incredibly short-sighted and flawed.

A man decides to cut back on sickies and gains more skills. (which costs money BTW, not everyone can just leave the kids and the mortgage and start studying) However, the employer decides that even though he can do more things, it would be better if he could do those things on casual rate pay. End result is the man is more skilled in his area of work yet is being payed less. Now tell me, who's fault is this?

The assumption that people are just lazy and should be fired is another fallacy. Most Australians are hard working, decent people, yet for some businesses they are not willing to pay them the rates of a full-time employee. They shift them onto lesser work loads and lesser pay rates. This isn't the fault of the worker, simply the fact that employees have more power in these situations. In areas where pay can be negotiable, basically the the hard-working man who has the necessary skills for the job has to agree to the rates determined by the employee, otherwise he doesn't get the job? Now tell me, who's fault is this? Why is it that we assume that anyone who has a problem with these laws is either lazy or a bleeding-heart liberal? I ask again, how about the meat-workers in NSW who were fired and then re-hired on casual rates for no reason other than the employee could do so and it was more cost effective?

If someone has more skills, obtaining new employment will be easier than if he had less skills, so if good people leave at some point the boss is going to have to face up to the problem of staff retention and deal with it or risk going backward as a Business.

 

[Richo83]

If someone has more skills, obtaining new employment will be easier than if he had less skills, so if good people leave at some point the boss is going to have to face up to the problem of staff retention and deal with it or risk going backward as a Business.

Skilled employees are still being sacked, not just the unskilled. Businesses with these new laws are quite happy to place skilled workers on casual rates, less pay and lesser work, simply because it is more cost effective, but in the end, it's Australia's work force which is being screwed over. I thought you were about the Aussie battler John, or was that a non-core promise?

 

[TheBloods]

If someone has more skills, obtaining new employment will be easier than if he had less skills, so if good people leave at some point the boss is going to have to face up to the problem of staff retention and deal with it or risk going backward as a Business.

What happens if he's 50yo and employers (for whatever stupid reason) have decided to hire all 30yo?

 

[bmwofoz]

Skilled employees are still being sacked, not just the unskilled. Businesses with these new laws are quite happy to place skilled workers on casual rates, less pay and lesser work, simply because it is more cost effective, but in the end, it's Australia's work force which is being screwed over. I thought you were about the Aussie battler John, or was that a non-core promise?

People have been sacked forever and will continue to be sacked forever, I was making the point that if you a skilled worker and show the effort to improve yourself in the main you don't get sacked, if you do its easier to obtain employment than it is for an unskilled worker.

What happens if he's 50yo and employers (for whatever stupid reason) have decided to hire all 30yo?

Depends on the 50 year old, if they are up to date with their skills they should be able to obtain Employment, if there skills are lacking then they have a problem.

I will add very few Bosses just turn up and sack people normally there a process of several weeks if not months, so I would argue if you get wind of changes then maybe its time to start looking for new work before the day comes.

I will maintain abled bodied workers have it easy compared to those dealing with the Disability employment services providers

 

[TheBloods]

Depends on the 50 year old, if they are up to date with their skills they should be able to obtain Employment

I think some people live in Utopia, where they really think that if someone has the appropriate skills a job will be easy to find. There are plenty of older people with good skills who can't find work.

I will add very few Bosses just turn up and sack people normally there a process of several weeks if not months, so I would argue if you get wind of changes then maybe its time to start looking for new work before the day comes.

Firstly, people are sometimes sacked without much notice. Secondly, if someone has been at a place for a long period of time, they won't want to leave. Thirdly, finding another job is not just a case of deciding to do it.

Unskilled workers cannot always become highly skilled, because of ability or lack of time.

 

[bmwofoz]

I think some people live in Utopia, where they really think that if someone has the appropriate skills a job will be easy to find. There are plenty of older people with good skills who can't find work.

Firstly, people are sometimes sacked without much notice. Secondly, if someone has been at a place for a long period of time, they won't want to leave. Thirdly, finding another job is not just a case of deciding to do it.

Unskilled workers cannot always become highly skilled, because of ability or lack of time.

Has I've said before the IR Laws are poorly written, not just the area regarding the AFPC, but the whole thing is a fat joke, sadly not a funny one.

 

[stickman11]

Dear confused moble unit,

Having considered your threads most earnestly!, therefore recommend you masturbate in public, have a priest 'on side' with bible and ....then

P Off!

If this is a rare, genuine thread... read the legislation and get back to us with your opinion, combined with fact.... or see above!

To new viewers, no I am not being harsh!

Corp

PS It is brilliant legislation for big business. You know the "power consuming polluting, fund giving, ones".... but an major erosion of worker rights which has been established in law for the majority of the last 30 years... go on prove that statement wrong!

This legislation was designed to give large companies the opportunity to lay of workers when want - especially when it comes to sacking workers so they can go to china or bloody asia and employ cheap workers. That is the real truth.

To be honest, it was quite easy for an intelligent boss to get rid of workers.

 

[bmwofoz]

This legislation was designed to give large companies the opportunity to lay of workers when want - especially when it comes to sacking workers so they can go to china or bloody asia and employ cheap workers. That is the real truth.

To be honest, it was quite easy for an intelligent boss to get rid of workers.

The scary thing is all the things Howard says a safe are not for the act is written in a way that overtime Employers will be able to reduce conditions further than the Government has said they'll allow, these are very bad laws, and I have been reading some very indeph articles on a website "Australian Policy Online" which outlines just how bad these laws are.

 

[Richo83]

People have been sacked forever and will continue to be sacked forever, I was making the point that if you a skilled worker and show the effort to improve yourself in the main you don't get sacked, if you do its easier to obtain employment than it is for an unskilled worker.

It's just that more and more people are being sacked, see bluntstones.

The perception that the people that are being sacked under these laws are people who aren't making an effort to become more-skilled is wrong. Skilled workers across Australia are being sacked, skilled or non-skilled for cheaper work, or cheaper conditions. You say that if you are skilled worker it's easier to obtain work, well many skilled workers can't get employment because they work in the wrong field, or they're too old, or they have some sort of condition that makes them unable to be hired, or the employer doesn't like them, or they're pregnant, or the employer isn't willing to pay them the rates they're asking for or isn't willing to hire another worker.

Depends on the 50 year old, if they are up to date with their skills they should be able to obtain Employment, if there skills are lacking then they have a problem.

Are you for real? The work shortage situation with 50 yo+ Australians is at crisis levels.

I will add very few Bosses just turn up and sack people normally there a process of several weeks if not months, so I would argue if you get wind of changes then maybe its time to start looking for new work before the day comes.

No-one wants to prepare for the day they're fired, it's unreasonable to hope that people will say: "Well I've got this job I've prepared just in case the boss fires me". And bosses with these new laws are licensed to fire people on the spot for pretty-much any reason now, it's so easier for an employer to fire an employee now.

I will maintain abled bodied workers have it easy compared to those dealing with the Disability employment services providers

Yes, we should all feel lucky we don't have a disability and have to live off the disability welfare payment. hat are you going to say next, that people should feel lucky that they're not payed young workers rates?

 

[bmwofoz]

Richo are you saying a Able bodied person using a Able bodied Employment Agency doesn't have it easier than someone using a Disability Employment agency.

 

[opng]

yeh had a friend in the same employment as im in be offered work at $16.50 and hour and then the catch came, for overtime or weekend rates it was $18.50 an hour, he asked if this was negotiable and from what he told me it was basically thats it take it or leave it, thats what negotiation is now and this poor fella had just upskilled, and workers are in high demand. Like ive said to a lot of people, we needed new IR laws to save some bosses from those bludging type of workers but this has just gone to far in one direction. You cant just sack someone for nothing. for all the people telling us its just great, remember your turn will come, wait till the comodoties boom ends. Negotiation works well if your a CEO looking for a new job while your still at your old job but try being the person whose company just closed down i.e blundstones. What a lot of people dont realise is that for the unemployed its impossible for them to get skilled, you go onto a lower payment if you want to enter tafe, uni etc. i mean you can say "but think of the money when you get work" but try thinking of how your going to pay the bills why your doing this training and the extra cost of actually doing the training. and then you have the rediculas situation of people on a work for the dole sceme getting extra (approx $30 PF) instead of this money going into upskilling these people, i know this because most of the 50's and over people get caught in this situation. My point is we have a new IR system and not one extra thing to support it. Me, im lucky im in a pretty good situation financially but id never lower myself to stomping on the people below me, you pick them up when they need a hand, its the aussie way, you dont kick em when there down.

 

[- PC -]

yeh had a friend in the same employment as im in be offered work at $16.50 and hour and then the catch came, for overtime or weekend rates it was $18.50 an hour, he asked if this was negotiable and from what he told me it was basically thats it take it or leave it,

Our contractors have 4 different rates for the same job , just depends on when you joined the company

 

[medusala]

It's just that more and more people are being sacked, see bluntstones.

How is that relevant? If you hadnt noticed Australia (and most of the west) has been losing manufacturing jobs in large nos for years. To think this is because of Howard is muppetry on a grand scale.

The perception that the people that are being sacked under these laws are people who aren't making an effort to become more-skilled is wrong. Skilled workers across Australia are being sacked, skilled or non-skilled for cheaper work, or cheaper conditions.

Is unemployment rising? Is the av wage falling?

And bosses with these new laws are licensed to fire people on the spot for pretty-much any reason now, it's so easier for an employer to fire an employee now.

Which makes them more willing to HIRE.

 

[opng]

Richo are you saying a Able bodied person using a Able bodied Employment Agency doesn't have it easier than someone using a Disability Employment agency.

Depending on the disability, the disabled person may have a better chance than the able bodied person it just depends on the disability. Depeding on the disability that is. Most people think of the disabled as some wheelchair bound,handicapped or mentally disabled person but there are a number of things that can class a person as disabled and allow them to be able to access a lot of help. for example a person with a bad back that have been passed for the pension before the new disability support pension assesment came in, that person may have the same problem as the person next to him but because he qualified a few years earlier he or she are able to get a lot more help to get skilled. for a lot of people disabled or not its knowing how to use each system and the problem is most people in either situation do not know the system and what they are able to get to get help. How do i know, my wife works in the disability sector. what you have to remember is that johnny boy dosnt want everyone to know what help they can get because then it will cost them more money. If he cared about skills we wouldnt have such a terrible education system.

 

[opng]

How is that relevant? If you hadnt noticed Australia (and most of the west) has been losing manufacturing jobs in large nos for years. To think this is because of Howard is muppetry on a grand scale.

the point i was making is that how are these type of people going to negotiate with a new potential employer,i never said it had anything to do with why they were sacked. Maybe you should read what i wrote.

Is unemployment rising? Is the av wage falling?

unemployment figures -when the figures are bassed on a bit more then a couple hours of work a week thats when ill take any notice of them.

When av wages figures represent the av. worker ill take notice of them to.

Which makes them more willing to HIRE.

now this one i sort of agree with because it was to hard to sack some of the useless **********heads out there but now its just to easy, like ive said its just gone a bit to far. Which you could say makes them more willing to FIRE.

 

[opng]

Our contractors have 4 different rates for the same job , just depends on when you joined the company

Now if it was on a sliding scale of skills you can accept it but how long before the ones on the highest get sacked and re-hired on lower wages and then this cycle starts with wages getting lower and lower till you end up with second class living like the USA(the working poor)

 

[bmwofoz]

Depending on the disability, the disabled person may have a better chance than the able bodied person it just depends on the disability. Depeding on the disability that is. Most people think of the disabled as some wheelchair bound,handicapped or mentally disabled person but there are a number of things that can class a person as disabled and allow them to be able to access a lot of help. for example a person with a bad back that have been passed for the pension before the new disability support pension assesment came in, that person may have the same problem as the person next to him but because he qualified a few years earlier he or she are able to get a lot more help to get skilled. for a lot of people disabled or not its knowing how to use each system and the problem is most people in either situation do not know the system and what they are able to get to get help. How do i know, my wife works in the disability sector. what you have to remember is that johnny boy dosnt want everyone to know what help they can get because then it will cost them more money. If he cared about skills we wouldnt have such a terrible education system.

I agree with your post, and there is a lot of help which this Government doesn't promote but what I'm referring to is the frustrating situation facing Disability Employment Service providers when applying for a position for most jobs are done though an agency which will put forward those whom they feel will be most successful therefore favour able bodied Clients of there agency.

 

[opng]

I agree with your post, and there is a lot of help which this Government doesn't promote but what I'm referring to is the frustrating situation facing Disability Employment Service providers when applying for a position for most jobs are done though an agency which will put forward those whom they feel will be most successful therefore favour able bodied Clients of there agency.

Yep totally agree, or the most successful are those that can make the most money for the employer( gov subsidies) or make the most money for the agency. The way this government treets the disabled is just downright shameful.

 

[opng]

Yep totally agree, or the most successful are those that can make the most money for the employer( gov subsidies) or make the most money for the agency. The way this government treets the disabled is just downright shameful.

to give you an example and its a very small example compared to what i know about some situations but by law i am unable to talk about these things(its classed as personell information) but i can with this one because its a close relative that i have no proffesional responsibility for, the person is downs and every year that person has to prove her capacity for assistance with medical checks etc. Now for some this might seem ok but when you come up with a cure for downs(its genetic) you'll probably see the almighty man himself grace us with his presence on earth. Its very downgrading and just so insulting to the parents concened. I only gave a very small example because by law i am unable to give out any information.

 

[Richo83]

How is that relevant? If you hadnt noticed Australia (and most of the west) has been losing manufacturing jobs in large nos for years. To think this is because of Howard is muppetry on a grand scale.

Happening more than ever med. Some would say international market forces, it's more than that, Howard's IR laws have opened the flood-gates for companies to fire workers for no good reason.

Is unemployment rising? Is the av wage falling?

So we should only take into account government figures when deciding the success of the IR laws? Employment figures are rising because more people are being hired at cost (lesser entitlements) the average wage of a worker isn't the only measurement of current worker rights standards.

Which makes them more willing to HIRE.

On casual rates, with less entitlements and rights and no bargaining ability.

 

[Richo83]

Richo are you saying a Able bodied person using a Able bodied Employment Agency doesn't have it easier than someone using a Disability Employment agency.

When did I ever say that? I'm just saying that stating "well, at least you have it better than the disabled" doesn't cut it for me. The disabled struggle because of their physical or mental handicap, the average worker will struggle because he has no rights in the workplace.

 

[medusala]

Some would say international market forces, it's more than that, Howard's IR laws have opened the flood-gates for companies to fire workers for no good reason.

Of course its globalisation. The UK has lost 1m manufacturing workers in the last 10 years.

On casual rates, with less entitlements and rights and no bargaining ability

They have bargaining ability, they can go elsewhere. The whole bargaining ability concept is a complete nonsense. Do you have bargaining ability when you buy petrol? Go to the supermarket? Go to the MCG? I think not.

As for falling wages and conditions this will happen in the long run regardless of IR system. You only need to look at auto workers in Germany who have had their employment conditions slashed.