What Shane Tuck Does - 2012 Thread

["The Roar Is Back"]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

I said to a mate after the first round of NAB matches that we need to start every centre bounce with either Cotchin or Tuck in the centre.

We just look so much more likely to win first possesion with either of them in there. Without either of those 2 the opposiitin just seem to stroll away from the contest.

Since then Foley has improved in this area but if I were coach we wouldnt start one centre bounce all year without atleast 1 of these 2 in the guts.

I appreciate your thoughts on the need for one of those type of players , however for me it is equally importantly that we don't have a weak link around clearances , it won't surprise me if Arnott plays round 1 from what he showed in the 2nd round of nab cup . His hands and inside work where elite , ????'a naturally over his fitness .

Edit : just noticed Arnott didn't get a game today , little hope round 1 stuff it .

 

[nut]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

I appreciate your thoughts on the need for one of those type of players , however for me it is equally importantly that we don't have a weak link around clearances , it won't surprise me if Arnott plays round 1 from what he showed in the 2nd round of nab cup . His hands and inside work where elite , ????'a naturally over his fitness .

Edit : just noticed Arnott didn't get a game today , little hope round 1 stuff it .

which player mentioned are you refering as the "weak link"..?

A weak link around clearances is a player who when it's their time to throw themselves in, sits back and watches....

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

which player mentioned are you refering as the "weak link"..?

A weak link around clearances is a player who when it's their time to throw themselves in, sits back and watches....

Or who doesn't have the physical attributes to compete within clearances !

 

[Danog]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Edwards?

 

[Rayzorwire]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Mistakes happen every day in all walks of life.
I will put my hand up and admit I made one with Tuck. The fact is, he is important to our structure. I got it wrong.

Good onya tug, one of the very few honest enough to say so.

If only you understood why we did what we did last year. Leaving Tuck out was all part of the development process.

Are you still pretending we developed any player better by leaving Tuck out and still fanboying Hardwick for what has been overwhelmingly shown to be a clear error of judgement?

Leaving Tuck out didn't develop one single player better. It put Conca out of the season early, forced a bunch of players who were clearly never going to be competitive inside-mids to play that role and fail miserably, overtaxed every other regular midfielder (to the point where it became publicly known that Martin begged for a rest) and gave us the wonderful development experience of a mid-season collapse which prevented us having a far better 'development process' which involved finals experience.

We needed to find out what the kids were capable of without having Tuck around.

There's dozens of posts from you in this thread claiming the main reason he didn't get games last year was that he simply wasn't worth playing.

Hardwick was wrong, you were wrong - at least Hardwick seems to have learned from his error. If you wanna fanboy him, do it for that reason.

...the excuses from the club were appalling and disrespectful.

Its good to here the club is finally going to picking players on merit

...

What we did by not playing Tuck was turn our best young midfielder into a battering ram... as a 21 year old who already was struggling with injuries... This was just plan stupidity. This gave me real concerns of what sought of thought processes were going through out football Department.What Were they trying to see??? how long it would take for Cotchin or Martin to break????

It was plan DUMB.... I have a strong belief that the playing group... especially our leadership group ... and most defenitly from our Vice captain has had a big say in putting Tuck back in the side.

Amen nut, you and JAK have been two of the few who have 'got' this issue from the start. And thanks for adding the article, let's hope we go in with our best onballers this year.

I agree with JAK, i love seeing tucky play. Havent noticed these Helicopter handballs.. Obviously he does the sky scraping kicks but he does some pretty good handballs in the packs imo.

Loads of great effective Tucky disposals (including hitting Reiwoldt on the chest multiple times by foot) in the video of the OP, some people just refuse to see them.

A freshened up Tuck in the kind of form he's in, finally getting the respect he deserves from the coaching staff, bodes well for our season.

 

[nut]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Good onya tug, one of the very few honest enough to say so.



Are you still pretending we developed any player better by leaving Tuck out and still fanboying Hardwick for what has been overwhelmingly shown to be a clear error of judgement?

Leaving Tuck out didn't develop one single player better. It put Conca out of the season early, forced a bunch of players who were clearly never going to be competitive inside-mids to play that role and fail miserably, overtaxed every other regular midfielder (to the point where it became publicly known that Martin begged for a rest) and gave us the wonderful development experience of a mid-season collapse which prevented us having a far better 'development process' which involved finals experience.



There's dozens of posts from you in this thread claiming the main reason he didn't get games last year was that he simply wasn't worth playing.

Hardwick was wrong, you were wrong - at least Hardwick seems to have learned from his error. If you wanna fanboy him, do it for that reason.



Amen nut, you and JAK have been two of the few who have 'got' this issue from the start. And thanks for adding the article, let's hope we go in with our best on ballers this year.



Loads of great effective Tucky disposals (including hitting Reiwoldt on the chest multiple times by foot) in the video of the OP, some people just refuse to see them.

A freshened up Tuck in the kind of form he's in, finally getting the respect he deserves from the coaching staff, bodes well for our season.

The thing is I want us to replace Tuck.... But I want to replace him with someone better. IMO Tuck is an elite contested ball winner in stoppages... I have not seen better at Richmond. By playing Tuck you raise the bar of what is expected aroud ball ups... throw ins...etc... he challenges players to go in Harder. If we can gets someone better than pop the champagne...

A good coach would use him as an example to the rest of the on ballers. I'd be telling someone like Grigg if you want Tucks spot than watch and learn and show us you can compete as fiercely as him.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Good onya tug, one of the very few honest enough to say so.



Are you still pretending we developed any player better by leaving Tuck out and still fanboying Hardwick for what has been overwhelmingly shown to be a clear error of judgement?

Leaving Tuck out didn't develop one single player better. It put Conca out of the season early, forced a bunch of players who were clearly never going to be competitive inside-mids to play that role and fail miserably, overtaxed every other regular midfielder (to the point where it became publicly known that Martin begged for a rest) and gave us the wonderful development experience of a mid-season collapse which prevented us having a far better 'development process' which involved finals experience.



There's dozens of posts from you in this thread claiming the main reason he didn't get games last year was that he simply wasn't worth playing.

Hardwick was wrong, you were wrong - at least Hardwick seems to have learned from his error. If you wanna fanboy him, do it for that reason.



Amen nut, you and JAK have been two of the few who have 'got' this issue from the start. And thanks for adding the article, let's hope we go in with our best onballers this year.



Loads of great effective Tucky disposals (including hitting Reiwoldt on the chest multiple times by foot) in the video of the OP, some people just refuse to see them.

A freshened up Tuck in the kind of form he's in, finally getting the respect he deserves from the coaching staff, bodes well for our season.

This is comment is incorrect in so many ways .
Firstly Cotchins inside game improved immensely last season and I think primarily as a result of not having someone else doing the grunt work , likewise players like Edwards and Nahas where forced to gain some form of an inside game .
Also Martin's plea for a rest could very well be argued as being a result of coming back to post Xmas with a Eddie McGuire like figure .
Tuck's absence also forced him to work on the defensive side of his game .
He is still rushed when he gets the footy , despite being in space and although I'd prefer him inside the square than others with limited inside games , he still has gapping holes in his game , which appear unlikely to ever be rectified .
The decision to leave him out of the side last season most certainly was the right one for the clubs long term development/ benefit, which is obviously not appreciated by those with short sight syndrome .

 

[_RT_]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Are you still pretending we developed any player better by leaving Tuck out and still fanboying Hardwick for what has been overwhelmingly shown to be a clear error of judgement?

Leaving Tuck out didn't develop one single player better. It put Conca out of the season early, forced a bunch of players who were clearly never going to be competitive inside-mids to play that role and fail miserably, overtaxed every other regular midfielder (to the point where it became publicly known that Martin begged for a rest) and gave us the wonderful development experience of a mid-season collapse which prevented us having a far better 'development process' which involved finals experience.

I admitted after the Geelong game last week that I was wrong about not wanting Tuck in the side.

I still stand by what I said about it improving development of players by not having him play last year. Cotchin Martin Edwards Nahas Grigg Conca all benefitted in some way by not having Tuck around doing what he does best. It forced them to step up and learn how to win the hard ball themselves, rather than having him feed it out to them.

Its no coincidence that this preseason we have been able to use these blokes in the centre square and around stoppages, when Tuck hasn't been in there and haven't fallen away as badly as we did last year.

As for playing finals last year, I still maintain that we wouldn't have got as much long term development out of it last year as we will this year. Last year we had a bunch of immature bodies that would have been punished under finals footy pressure. With another preseason of weights and maturity they look to be much better conditioned to be able to handle high intensity footy.

Don't forget Ray, its been about long term success this time around, not the short term success that TW was after with his topping up and trying to squeeze a finals appearance out of the group.

 

[nut]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

I admitted after the Geelong game last week that I was wrong about not wanting Tuck in the side.

I still stand by what I said about it improving development of players by not having him play last year. Cotchin Martin Edwards Nahas Grigg Conca all benefitted in some way by not having Tuck around doing what he does best. It forced them to step up and learn how to win the hard ball themselves, rather than having him feed it out to them.

Its no coincidence that this preseason we have been able to use these blokes in the centre square and around stoppages, when Tuck hasn't been in there and haven't fallen away as badly as we did last year.

As for playing finals last year, I still maintain that we wouldn't have got as much long term development out of it last year as we will this year. Last year we had a bunch of immature bodies that would have been punished under finals footy pressure. With another preseason of weights and maturity they look to be much better conditioned to be able to handle high intensity footy.

Don't forget Ray, its been about long term success this time around, not the short term success that TW was after with his topping up and trying to squeeze a finals appearance out of the group.

The point is only 1 player stood up.... and we already knew that player was an elite extractor... giving a 20 year old that responsiblity was asking for a long temr injury, especially a player that had struggled since he arrived. Answer me this Was this smart?

of the other players it was pretty clear that there wasn't anyong capable of wearing Tucks shoes...


6 out of our 8 wins Tuyck played.

We left him out in Sydney and we lost by 10 points against a side that is one of the best 1 on 1 teams in the comp. I'd say Tuck is worth atleast 2 goals.

We got smashed by Meblourne in the middle.... losing by 27 points. No Tuck.

Lets not talk about Carlton..... but it was clear by then we had lost our competitive edge. Something Tuck brings every week.... But I guess thumpings are good for the Teams development??..... Surely Tuck would come in the following week????
um na.


It was stupid coaching.... not won player benefited from having Tuck out of the side.

 

[_RT_]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

The point is only 1 player stood up.... and we already knew that player was an elite extractor... giving a 20 year old that responsiblity was asking for a long temr injury, especially a player that had struggled since he arrived. Answer me this Was this smart?

of the other players it was pretty clear that there wasn't anyong capable of wearing Tucks shoes...


6 out of our 8 wins Tuyck played.

We left him out in Sydney and we lost by 10 points against a side that is one of the best 1 on 1 teams in the comp. I'd say Tuck is worth atleast 2 goals.

We got smashed by Meblourne in the middle.... losing by 27 points. No Tuck.

Lets not talk about Carlton..... but it was clear by then we had lost our competitive edge. Something Tuck brings every week.... But I guess thumpings are good for the Teams development??..... Surely Tuck would come in the following week????
um na.


It was stupid coaching.... not won player benefited from having Tuck out of the side.

We don't need one player to stand up and replace Tuck, what we need is a group of players. That way we can share the load and not have to rely 1-2 player to do all the work. As I said we now know that we can turn to guys like Edwards Nahas & Grigg to do a stint in the middle to change things up and not lose too much.

If you like, think of it similar to how we changed the way we focused on Jack to kick all our goals. 2 years ago he kicked 78 goals and our next best was 15. Last year Jack kicked 62, Vickery 36, Martin 33, Nahas 29 & King 25 the load was spread and even when Jack had a quiet game we were still able to be competitive and in some cases win.

Its the same sort of thing that we were hoping to achieve with leaving Tuck out last year. If you look at results so far this preseason, it could be argued that the same sort of thing has happened, we're now less reliant on Tuck winning heaps of clearances/first possessions and feeding it out.

As for last years results, thats the sort of short term pain that brings the long term gain. That is while it was painful to lose those games long term we are better off for having done.

Unfortunately too many supporters get caught up in the pain the losses bring that they can't see the long term benefit that things like leaving Tuck out bring.

 

[nut]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

We don't need one player to stand up and replace Tuck, what we need is a group of players. That way we can share the load and not have to rely 1-2 player to do all the work. As I said we now know that we can turn to guys like Edwards Nahas & Grigg to do a stint in the middle to change things up and not lose too much.

If you like, think of it similar to how we changed the way we focused on Jack to kick all our goals. 2 years ago he kicked 78 goals and our next best was 15. Last year Jack kicked 62, Vickery 36, Martin 33, Nahas 29 & King 25 the load was spread and even when Jack had a quiet game we were still able to be competitive and in some cases win.

Its the same sort of thing that we were hoping to achieve with leaving Tuck out last year. If you look at results so far this preseason, it could be argued that the same sort of thing has happened, we're now less reliant on Tuck winning heaps of clearances/first possessions and feeding it out.

As for last years results, thats the sort of short term pain that brings the long term gain. That is while it was painful to lose those games long term we are better off for having done.

Unfortunately too many supporters get caught up in the pain the losses bring that they can't see the long term benefit that things like leaving Tuck out bring.

We could have still achieved the sdame thing by player Tuck.... surely its better to have someone actually demonstrating whats required.

Jack still played.

Maybe Tuck hogs it in the middle. No one else gets a look in. .... I see the point.... But I think last season was the wrong season to do it.

But we acheived our result by not making the eight. Not playing Tuck insured that.
The fact that peoiple conitued to critise Tucks value throu out last year as been squashed by the statements coming out of the club now.

Personally this is a DH backflip IMO.... not a calculated deicison telling someone we aren't going to play you too much this season but next season you are back in.

Tuck will play this season because we are better chance of winning with him in the side.... those who think otherwise are just plain stupid.

Dh now wants to win.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

This is comment is incorrect in so many ways .
Firstly Cotchins inside game improved immensely last season and I think primarily as a result of not having someone else doing the grunt work , likewise players like Edwards and Nahas where forced to gain some form of an inside game .
Also Martin's plea for a rest could very well be argued as being a result of coming back to post Xmas with a Eddie McGuire like figure .
Tuck's absence also forced him to work on the defensive side of his game .
He is still rushed when he gets the footy , despite being in space and although I'd prefer him inside the square than others with limited inside games , he still has gapping holes in his game , which appear unlikely to ever be rectified .
The decision to leave him out of the side last season most certainly was the right one for the clubs long term development/ benefit, which is obviously not appreciated by those with short sight syndrome .

Arguably...and in most discussions on BF Forums as in life in general everything can be boiled down/reduced to a simple argument....or so it seems...

Leaving Tucky out of the Richmond side last year was the right thing to do for the 'Clubs' long term development/benefit...no question at all...it was the right thing to do for a Club that had struggled for the past 30 years plus in seeking the ultimate Football Success....PREMIERSHIPS...the right thing to do in the long term...how long then is a piece of string then?!?!...

As a result...'Game time' became the new Football Mantra replacing 'Game Plan' as the Coaching catch cry...Game time into the youngsters...it meant team results suffered as the tiring youngsters played against tougher mature sides/bodies and the ugly notion of 'Gifting' undeserved games games to young players simply to gain game time...raised its ugly head...it soon became a recipe for disaster...

To me 2011's throwing of talented inexperienced youngsters up against the competitions hardened matured players...smelt of...dare i say it...

'Coaching by the numbers'...

Plan A will lead to Plan B if not then proceed with Plan C...it sounded to much as if it came out of a Recipe Book for possible football success...

1...Cull up to 30 players...
2...proceed to introduce young players...
3...Mix quickly...
4...If mixture too bland...for success...
5...Add a seasoned player for balance...mix again...
6...Repeat if needed...quickly...

I think Hardwick's fingerprints are all over that football recipe book...He also had a 'Game Plan' why wouldnt he...he's been at three successfull clubs...certain things worked there and they will work again...hence the reliance on a proven 'Game Plan' by an in-experienced coach such as Hardwick...

Part of Harwicks inexperience was dropping Tucky and gifting games to youngsters under the tactic of 'Game Time' in 2011...

In the short term...anything could have happened...injuries to young stars...team disharmony from gifting games rather than players earning them...mounting team losses...disgruntled fans...

In the long term...the Club must eventually succeed because they are turning over players...even at the possible expense of injuries to stars learning the game...

I dont think a seasoned experienced coach would have dropped Tucky from the side like Harwick did...i cant imagine a Malthouse or Sheedy doing a similar thing...they would have done both...develop and protect young talented players...

By dropping Tucky...Hardwick removed from the side one of the more hardened mature experienced bodies in the team...as a result the younger talented players were thrown in at the deep end...and they got tired and they got smashed...it was a bad plan and it was a bad part of his Football Recipe for success...

Younger players learn from the best players...the best Coaches can tell you how to go about playing good footy...its only the best football players that show you what good footy is...by their on-field example in the heat of the game when the result is up for grabs...

Their actions speak louder than words...Cousins run and carry...Tuckys grunt work...how else are young players going to learn about playing contested footy and winning the first use of the ball...if not from/by the good players example...

Tucky is the best at winning contested Footy...simply the best...Tucky the 'Extractor'...

And to his credit Hardwick realized his mistake...

Now Hardwicks Football Recipe Book for Success has gained some 'new' spice...

Tuckys 'old' style 'Extraction'......

 

[_RT_]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

We could have still achieved the sdame thing by player Tuck.... surely its better to have someone actually demonstrating whats required.

Jack still played.

Maybe Tuck hogs it in the middle. No one else gets a look in. .... I see the point.... But I think last season was the wrong season to do it.

But we acheived our result by not making the eight. Not playing Tuck insured that.
The fact that peoiple conitued to critise Tucks value throu out last year as been squashed by the statements coming out of the club now.

Personally this is a DH backflip IMO.... not a calculated deicison telling someone we aren't going to play you too much this season but next season you are back in.

Tuck will play this season because we are better chance of winning with him in the side.... those who think otherwise are just plain stupid.

Dh now wants to win.

So when should we have found out what others can do without Tuck around? Should we have waited until Tuck had retired in a couple of years time and then thrown them to the wolves, so to speak, while we're also trying to win enough games to make finals. Or should we have done it last season, in a year when we didn't have much expectation on us and were free to experiment with lineups and find out what we need to get better.

Personally I think last year was the perfect time to do it. We weren't really in contention for the 8, so we didn't lose anything bar a token finals game, where we most likely would have got blown away like the Bombers did against Carlton.

 

[Schlurp]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Thought Tucky played well yesterday as did Morris. Each brings a few minuses to the game but they are outweighed by a heap of plusses. Each turned the ball over on occasions but each was committed at the end. In fact, Tucky had one of the last kicks of the game, an outside 50 shot on goal, touched on the line, and he looked exhausted.

As for Hardwick, I think what we are seeing is a good coach now at the beginning of a new trajectory of quality. He may end up being one of the greats of our club, up there and possibly better than Tommy Hafey. Dimma seems to have that rare quality of being an intelligent systems thinker coupled with practical knowledge. He is transforming a club that has experienced a generation of neglect into a unit that now commands respect and those KPI's Benny Gale put out there last year are looking far less fanciful.

Rick Charlesworth wrote a book called "The Coach" in which he describes why he was prepared to concede short term losses for long term gains. Player development was a key factor in Charleworth's plans - to the point where he played people in uncomfortable, unfamiliar roles in less important games mainly to learn what he could expect of them in the critical ones. Charlesworth was, of course, cut more slack as his target was an Olympic gold - i.e. a four year timeframe, rather than the 12 months premiership season of AFL. However, the principles remain the same and I see a lot of the Charleworth holistic vision in Dimma's work.

 

[_RT_]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Younger players learn from the best players...the best Coaches can tell you how to go about playing good footy...its only the best football players that show you what good footy is...by their on-field example in the heat of the game when the result is up for grabs...

Their actions speak louder than words...Cousins run and carry...Tuckys grunt work...how else are young players going to learn about playing contested footy and winning the first use of the ball...if not from/by the good players example...

Tucky is the best at winning contested Footy...simply the best...Tucky the 'Extractor'...

And to his credit Hardwick realized his mistake...

Now Hardwicks Football Recipe Book for Success has gained some 'new' spice...

Tuckys 'old' style 'Extraction'......

Just a query Jak. Do you think that we gained anything by having our players go up against the likes of Judd & Murphy, Swan Ball & Pendlebury, Selwood Bartel & Kelly as well as other elite midfielders and following them around and seeing what they do?

Those guys are the elite midfielders that combine ball winning ability and/or disposal that set them apart. Getting first hand exposure at how they work for each other and give each other time and space.

The other thing is when you're trying to become one of the best at your craft do you gain more by sitting on the 'sidelines' watching or do you gain more by getting your hands dirty by getting in there and learning through exposure. Personally I believe you gain more by being exposed to it. After all when you go and get your licence to drive, you don't get experience sitting in the passenger seat letting others do the work.

 

[nut]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Just a query Jak. Do you think that we gained anything by having our players go up against the likes of Judd & Murphy, Swan Ball & Pendlebury, Selwood Bartel & Kelly as well as other elite midfielders and following them around and seeing what they do?

Those guys are the elite midfielders that combine ball winning ability and/or disposal that set them apart. Getting first hand exposure at how they work for each other and give each other time and space.

The other thing is when you're trying to become one of the best at your craft do you gain more by sitting on the 'sidelines' watching or do you gain more by getting your hands dirty by getting in there and learning through exposure. Personally I believe you gain more by being exposed to it. After all when you go and get your licence to drive, you don't get experience sitting in the passenger seat letting others do the work.

Did any of the elite midfielders above get thrown to the wolves when they started? Did having mature players around them hurt thier development?

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Just a query Jak. Do you think that we gained anything by having our players go up against the likes of Judd & Murphy, Swan Ball & Pendlebury, Selwood Bartel & Kelly as well as other elite midfielders and following them around and seeing what they do?

Those guys are the elite midfielders that combine ball winning ability and/or disposal that set them apart. Getting first hand exposure at how they work for each other and give each other time and space.

The other thing is when you're trying to become one of the best at your craft do you gain more by sitting on the 'sidelines' watching or do you gain more by getting your hands dirty by getting in there and learning through exposure. Personally I believe you gain more by being exposed to it. After all when you go and get your licence to drive, you don't get experience sitting in the passenger seat letting others do the work.

Thats a fair call RT......

I reckon they would have learnt even more working with Tucky and working against Juddy...with Tucky against Swann...with Tucky against Ablett...

When to be skillfull...and when to really get physical...

But my previous post still stands and i think i should clarify if further by posting...having Tucky in the side last year would most certainly have spred the work load and reduced the physical attrition/battery that the young players in Martin/Cotchin/underdone Foley/Conca/Batch would have experienced...

That was always my concern...a serious injury to our young elite guns doing too much grunt work...in the absense of Tuck..

I maintain Hardwick realized he had made a tactical coaching mistake...as the season went on...and rectified it by reinstating Tucky into the side for the remaining games of the season...

Arguably good experienced coaches protect as well as develope their guns..

Just a query RT...do you think other experienced coaches such as Sheedy or Malthouse would have dropped experienced mature bodied players as Tuck simply to gift games to young talented players so that they gain experience in draining/physical 'grunt' work...against better polished mid fields/teams/players...

 

[_RT_]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Did any of the elite midfielders above get thrown to the wolves when they started? Did having mature players around them hurt thier development?

All of them were thrown to the wolves at some stage, just like our guys have been. At the same time they have also had mature players around them to take some heat off of them when they need it, just like our players have had. Like I said before at some stage you have to put the heat on the kids and find out what they are capable of. What better time to do it that in a season where we weren't expected to do much in terms of making finals.

 

[Goldust]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Me thinks Tucky is going to be a very important player for us this year. As the calibre of on-baller around him improves, he too will improve.

One thought re throwing kids to the wolves, I remember the calls for Andrew raines to be played in the midfield after his good 2006 season. He got his chance v the Cats in 2007, out of his depth and we were smashed by 150 odd!!!

 

[_RT_]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Thats a fair call RT......

I reckon they would have learnt even more working with Tucky and working against Juddy...with Tucky against Swann...with Tucky against Ablett...

When to be skillfull...and when to really get physical...

But my previous post still stands and i think i should clarify if further by posting...having Tucky in the side last year would most certainly have spred the work load and reduced the physical attrition/battery that the young players in Martin/Cotchin/underdone Foley/Conca/Batch would have experienced...

That was always my concern...a serious injury to our young elite guns doing too much grunt work...in the absense of Tuck..

I maintain Hardwick realized he had made a tactical coaching mistake...as the season went on...and rectified it by reinstating Tucky into the side for the remaining games of the season...

Arguably good experienced coaches protect as well as develope their guns..

Just a query RT...do you think other experienced coaches such as Sheedy or Malthouse would have dropped experienced mature bodied players as Tuck simply to gift games to young talented players so that they gain experience in draining/physical 'grunt' work...against better polished mid fields/teams/players...

All coaches, including greats like Malthouse Sheedy & Matthews have turned to kids over experienced players when rebuilding their lists. Like us they have given the kids games and when they hae got tired have turned to the old stagers to take a bit of the impact off the kids.

Watch how Sheedy goes with GWS this year, he'll play the kids as much as possible, but when they tire, he will turn to a few of the older recruits he has brought in as cover.

 

[santa claws]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

for me its not the martins deledios or cotchins who i think tuck is getting games in front of.
hes an infinately better and more important cog than edwards or grigg or houli jackson nahas. all get regular games and all of them at some stage id be looking to upgrade on.
we dont have depth in the midfield and we are certainly light on inside ball winners.

do north drop brent harvey because of his age or do they play him. did hawthorn drop crawf in 2008 no they played him. why not get rid of newman hes pushing 30 why do we play miller who is taking the spot of a kid, a kid who may not give much atm.
tuck isnt keeping martin cotchin conca ellis foley out of the side in a inside midfield capacity he compliments them.
we dont have better in this role in fact we certainly dont have others who can perform his role unless you want to throw martin or cotchin into purely inside roles.

rt sheedy will play every mature player he has or as many of them as possible. he doesnt have many he has no option but to play lots of kids as that is mainly all he has.if fit all of the following will play regular games.
brogan 33 will play cornes 32 will play giles 23 mcdonald 33 probably mohr 23 oahailpin 29 palmer 23 power 32 reid 22. plus ward who is only 22 scully who is only 20 and davis who is only 21 all still kids themselves. thats their list of mature players.

sheedy was not only good at playing kids he perservered with older players and got plenty out of them. his 2000 gf side averaged 25 yrs of age AND 112 games.

his so called baby bombers had 12 players aged 23 or more it contained just 3 teenagers and 8 between 18 and 22.
good coaches like sheedy or malthouse are good at getting the balance right. we dont currently have good balance when it comes to senior players.

 

[_RT_]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

for me its not the martins deledios or cotchins who i think tuck is getting games in front of.
hes an infinately better and more important cog than edwards or grigg or houli jackson nahas. all get regular games and all of them at some stage id be looking to upgrade on.
we dont have depth in the midfield and we are certainly light on inside ball winners.

do north drop brent harvey because of his age or do they play him. did hawthorn drop crawf in 2008 no they played him. why not get rid of newman hes pushing 30 why do we play miller who is taking the spot of a kid, a kid who may not give much atm.
tuck isnt keeping martin cotchin conca ellis foley out of the side in a inside midfield capacity he compliments them.
we dont have better in this role in fact we certainly dont have others who can perform his role unless you want to throw martin or cotchin into purely inside roles.

rt sheedy will play every mature player he has or as many of them as possible. he doesnt have many he has no option but to play lots of kids as that is mainly all he has.if fit all of the following will play regular games.
brogan 33 will play cornes 32 will play giles 23 mcdonald 33 probably mohr 23 oahailpin 29 palmer 23 power 32 reid 22. plus ward who is only 22 scully who is only 20 and davis who is only 21 all still kids themselves. thats their list of mature players.

sheedy was not only good at playing kids he perservered with older players and got plenty out of them. his 2000 gf side averaged 25 yrs of age AND 112 games.

his so called baby bombers had 12 players aged 23 or more it contained just 3 teenagers and 8 between 18 and 22.
good coaches like sheedy or malthouse are good at getting the balance right. we dont currently have good balance when it comes to senior players.

As I said Claws, not playing Tuck in the side last year was all about finding out what the players below him were capable of without him there to win the ball and feed it out to them. Those guys had to go in and win their own footy, even the likes of Cotchin & Martin had to learn to win their own ball and not have someone do the heavy work for them. IMO it makes them much better and well rounded players.

As for some of the others, like Edwards Nahas Grigg and the like, they too increased their ability to win contested footy and also their ability to get through traffic because they were thrown into the deep end so to speak.

The other thing is we haven't cut Tuck, we simply spent a year when it was beneficial for us to do so, without him in the side. Now that the younger kids have had that experience put into them we've brought him back in again, where his size will compliment the others and their improved ability in contested situations won't mean we have to have Tuck carry the load almost on his own like he has had to do in the past.

Finally, we don't have that group of older players because over the last 3 pre seasons we've cut practically all our experienced players and replaced them with kids. This happens when you go about completely rebuilding the list. Sides that Sheedy & Malthouse have coached more often than not haven't had to completely rebuild like we have.

 

[nut]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

As I said Claws, not playing Tuck in the side last year was all about finding out what the players below him were capable of without him there to win the ball and feed it out to them. Those guys had to go in and win their own footy, even the likes of Cotchin & Martin had to learn to win their own ball and not have someone do the heavy work for them. IMO it makes them much better and well rounded players.

As for some of the others, like Edwards Nahas Grigg and the like, they too increased their ability to win contested footy and also their ability to get through traffic because they were thrown into the deep end so to speak.

The other thing is we haven't cut Tuck, we simply spent a year when it was beneficial for us to do so, without him in the side. Now that the younger kids have had that experience put into them we've brought him back in again, where his size will compliment the others and their improved ability in contested situations won't mean we have to have Tuck carry the load almost on his own like he has had to do in the past.

Finally, we don't have that group of older players because over the last 3 pre seasons we've cut practically all our experienced players and replaced them with kids. This happens when you go about completely rebuilding the list. Sides that Sheedy & Malthouse have coached more often than not haven't had to completely rebuild like we have.

I think the club did a back flip personally. The backlash from the treatment of Tuck went far and wide. The rumours that Tuck was being held back so we didn;t have to extend his contract were strong.

The comments from Cotchin last season and now Newman..... I think the club was forced to change their decision.

I look at the Melbourne and how they went WAY too far when the gutted their list... young players playing in positions where there were no experienced players to guide them.

Lets be honest... DH was hoping that someone would take Tucks spot... without realising (for the second year in a row) how important Tuck is. Only Cotchin has shown he can extract the ball as good as Tuck. Now do we want Cotchin on the bottom of packs??? or outside ????

Ok lets look at the team with argubly the best you mids in the comp... GWS... hmmm why did Sheeds and Mark Williams, two premiership coaches feel the need to put Power and a 34 year old Mcdonald... into the side??? 2 players that will retire at years end most likely...hmmmm short term think you would say??? definately NOT... they are looking at the long term development of their young players... to learn of battle harden proffesionals.... They know the value of onfield leaders... and that YOU CANT throw kids to the wolves too early. GC also got muture age mids as well.

Another point you can answer me ???/ Why did DH play Cousins??? yet couldn't afford the luxury of playing TUCK???



You talk about finding out what players can do..... well if DH needs to work out that young players cant keep the work load up for extended periods of the season and game time then we surely need to find a new coach... I'm all for spreading the load... but I like to put enough vegimite on my knife to cover the bread. What DH did was create a whole too great to fill.... especially in the absence of Deledio and Cousins out of the middle last season. It was there for everyone to see... statistically we were getting SMASHED in the middle.
Our season revival started when Tuck was put back in the side... Martins was able to turn his form around and played with more freedom.

Last season we should have fine tuned Cotchin and Martin outside work... not treat them like battering rams.



And this season our backline worries me ... Playing Post, Rance, Grimes, Batchelor, Ellis and Morris???? Looks to me DH is going to throw the Backs to the wolves. How long will it take to make the decision that even with his flaws the experience that Mcguane has should make him our first back picked.
I think we are setting Post up to fail personally because I dont think he is ready... I will predict that he will play the first 4-5 games until we are forced to drop him because he isn't upto it.... thats what throwing a player to wolves is... What this will do to Posts long term confidence will be ingrained into him... I doint think he is a player that will get back from this constent in and out of the side.

He needs to EARN his spot.... through Coburg not pre-season fluff games.

Why cant we do what Malthouse does???? he plays the hacks in the senoirs until, the younsgters are ready... Why is it that MM's youngsters always seem ready??? hmmm because he doesn;t play them until they are... especially KPP's. He uses player like Anthony until he knows Dawes has finished his apprenticship in the two's... Dawes walks into the side and is an instant success. I'll be all day talking about his backs...

 

[rammbo]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

i watched this game at ground level and tuck is still a contested ball machine and i dare say hes still no 1 in the afl at it .i want tuck to b played in the guts every game this season .

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Nut...I enjoyed reading your post...the points you made were well argued and gave me food for thought about the whole Tucky saga...

Especially...the following...

I look at the Melbourne and how they went WAY too far when the gutted their list... young players playing in positions where there were no experienced players to guide them.