What's more important recruit a star coach or star player?

[Slax]

We are at a point where we need an overhaul at the club, Voss has been at the helm for 4 years now and we don't seem to be any closer to being a finals contender, let along look like being a top four threat in the next 4 years. We now must look at is it better to spend money chasing a Tippet or chasing a top coach?

I personally believe we need to chase a coach. If the rumours are correct and a number of younger fringe players are unhappy (Patty K & Beams just to name two), then we must wonder what is going wrong. We need these players to be coming through not stagnating. We have a number of players with talent that don't seem to making the step from being a talent player to being a consistent performer Banfield, Cornelius & Polkinghorne are just a few of the players who don't seem to be taking the next step up despite being in the system for long enough to expect it. yes they can all play the odd good game but don't do it often enough. A top coach with a record of developing players will take them to the next step and bring in a game plan that will see us challenge the top teams, which leads to playing finals.

A star player is only as good as those around him. yes Tippett might be a perfect replacement for Brown, but if the delivery doesn't improve he won't do any more than what Brown has done this year.

The club also needs to look at the finances, crowds and membership levels have dropped dramatically in the past couple of years. Part of this is related to GC, but part is also related to on field performance. A star player may attract some short term attention but really they won't put bums on seats if we are still not able to compete with the finals contenders.

A single decent win against West Coast is not enough for me to say we are going forward. At home this season we have been:
Terrible against - Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond,
Ordinary against - Geelong, Gold Coast (we won but wasn't impressed),
Good against - GWS, Melbourne, West Coast & St Kilda.
That's less than 50% of the time we have got a pass mark, not good enough. I don't expect to win, just be competitive and play a brand of footy I'm willing to watch.

If we don't move forward quickly we will of missed the boat and find ourselves looking at a ladder where we need to binoculars to see the top 4.

 

[Tairy Greene]

Why not kill two birds with one stone and recruit a gun player-coach?

 

[Bert Man]

Patty K & Beams just to name two

what is your source for Beams leaving?

 

[jackess]

I don't know why the club wouldn't just go out and get Malthouse to coach and trade for Buddy Franklin. Seems an obvious thing to do. I don't know why the guys running the club don't think of trying to improve the finances of the club.

 

[Bert Man]

I don't know why the club wouldn't just go out and get Malthouse to coach and trade for Buddy Franklin. Seems an obvious thing to do. I don't know why the guys running the club don't think of trying to improve the finances of the club.

Paul Roos would be a better coach. Sydney didnt have the talent that Collingwood had and they were a quality side.

 

[ZoBlitz]

A new coach isn't instantly going to make the inexperienced players more experienced. Coaches aren't the magic pill that some seem to think.

 

[Toffee Lion]

There is no rumour about Beams leaving.

That was something made up by some BigFooty posters that if he doesn't get more games in the seniors that he will leave.

 

[Bert Man]

There is no rumour about Beams leaving.

That was something made up by some BigFooty posters that if he doesn't get more games in the seniors that he will leave.

that is a relief! Quality young player Beams

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Well this is a thread I didn't expect to see. I thought general consensus was that we'd done pretty well with the year, considering by the end of it we will almost definitely have at least doubled our wins from last year.

I'm backing Vossy 100% for now. In saying that, this is absolutely the last year that more than two (or maybe three) blowouts for the season will be acceptable. That's something we need to be past next year. I'll start asking questions myself if we aren't.

 

[Ceebee]

A new coach isn't instantly going to make the inexperienced players more experienced. Coaches aren't the magic pill that some seem to think.

Yep, its a shame the coach seems to get the blame for everything.
You have to have the cattle to work with.
Chris Scott can vouch for that, not a bad team to inherit in your first year.
Hungry for success and still an awesome list.

 

[karix]

We are at a point where we need an overhaul at the club, Voss has been at the helm for 4 years now and we don't seem to be any closer to being a finals contender, let along look like being a top four threat in the next 4 years. We now must look at is it better to spend money chasing a Tippet or chasing a top coach?

To answer the topic: Star coach/player is not as important as well developed team with plenty of depth.

We just overhauled the club with the review and the new board. Voss has been at the helm for 4 years but really was given mixed messages about what he was meant to be achieving (Get another flag for the Vets? Or rebuild completely?)

Last year he was given a clear message from the board/review. Rebuild. He did and we suffered a pretty woeful season with only 4 wins and a lot of 'honourable losses'. Last year many of us couldn't see a game plan. Couldn't see the way forward, but we could see alot of potential in our young list.

I don't understand how you can consider nearly twice as many wins no closer to a finals than last year? The best way to get closer to finals and then a premiership is to get an increasing number of wins each year in the H&A season. Is there a better KPI that you use to benchmark progress?

People seem to forget this is basically the second year of the rebuild, and while it would've been lovely to scrape it into the 8 this year it didn't happen. Here are some positives we have seen though:

• Glimpses of the game plan (high risk, high reward, precision kicking/handballs)
• 7 wins, and with any luck we'll see that extend to 9.
• Bursts of gameplay that is extremely competitive
• Young players settling into a position, and the general settling of the list so that we have a bit of consistency
• Courageous in and under efforts from some players

The most important one there for me, is the game plan. Without one the team seemed directionless, now that I can see what Voss is aiming for I'm excited.. But we've had negatives too:

• Bizarre team selection at times
• Inconsistent effort/skill level/form from players (not just young ones)
• Breakdown of structures and game plan under pressure
• Collapse of bodies/fitness towards the end of the season

Both the positives and the negatives can be attributed to players and coach, not either side entirely. In my opinion, changing the coach now will set us back 2 years. Unless your intention is to promote someone from within the club who is already familiar with the game plan and how to continue developing it.
What I will agree with you on is that bringing in an experienced player development coach as a senior assistant is a great idea. I don't particularly thing our development is terrible or lackluster, it's just not as quick as the fans would like it. The truth is players are human beings, they don't follow a predictable improvement curve. A specialised assistant coach would probably be the best way to improve in this area, rather than a whole sale changing of the guard.
Look at the games where we were playing well (or the quarters), our skills are high, precision kicking, fast and hard handballs through the corridor and dangerous attack into f50. So our development isn't lacking, it's just getting the confidence and consistency up to use the skills that have been trained under pressure.

 

[Haso]

• Glimpses of the game plan (high risk, high reward, precision kicking/handballs)
• 7 wins, and with any luck we'll see that extend to 9.
• Bursts of gameplay that is extremely competitive
• Young players settling into a position, and the general settling of the list so that we have a bit of consistency
• Courageous in and under efforts from some players

Agree with these

• Bizarre team selection at times
• Inconsistent effort/skill level/form from players (not just young ones)
• Breakdown of structures and game plan under pressure
• Collapse of bodies/fitness towards the end of the season

And these.

Drawing a low bow indeed to suggest that there has been no improvement.

 

[Dylan12]

I said player(s) because I don't think a 'star' coach is gettable and would be interested in coming to the Lions.

I'm in the camp of wanting us to target quality midfielders because, outside of Rich, our general delivery to forwards is ordinary and I think Tippett would struggle with similar delivery we dish up to Brown et al.

My gripe with Voss, which you pointed out, is the continual selection of certain players, irrespective of how rubbish they consistently perform at the expense of others who are held to a different standard and the moment they don't deliver in a game are axed.

 

[Toffee Lion]

The only issue I have is that Polks and Banfield are continuely selected.

Other then that I'm more then happy with Vossy.

 

[Stocka]

Unless we get belted in each of the remaining four games and completely come unravelled, I don't see the point in sacking Voss at this stage. I'd question the readiness and talent of players on our list to make an immediate and significant jump in performance under a different coach in 2013, so unless there are serious concerns with how Voss is developing the younger players, he probably deserves to fulfill his contractual obligations next year and continue this process.

As I said in another thread, we haven't lost any games that we would have been expected to win this year. Given that we only won four games last season, a result of seven wins that should be extended to nine is a pass for the coach, for mine. If we lose to Port Adelaide and/or the Western Bulldogs and have only seven or eight wins, I'd still say that it'd be a pass, although, I'd imagine that it would put Voss under considerable pressure over the off-season and we'd be hearing conjecture and speculation about Voss being "first coach to be sacked" and "not seeing out the year". I don't think sacking a coach during the year is a good idea, but a poor finish to 2012 and a poor start to 2013 would certainly see this talk rear its ugly head and put Voss's neck on the line for one of those "coach killer" losses to knock him off, ala M.Primus.

Mind you, I imagine that even if we do end up with nine wins, that there will still be quite a bit of pressure on Voss to improve the team in 2013, or not have his contract renewed. It's hard to say what results Voss will have to achieve in order to have his tenure extended beyond 2013. I imagine that it would most likely be along the lines of having us winning enough games and beating decent opponents to put us in serious contention for the finals in order for Voss to have a chance of coaching beyond 2013. That will be a step up, as this year we are really only a better-performed bottom team, as opposed to genuinely being in the middle of the ladder and in the mix for the finals, like teams such as North Melbourne, Essendon, Fremantle, St.Kilda, Carlton and Richmond (who have all beaten us comfortably in most cases). On the field and on paper, all of these teams look as though they'll still be ahead of us comfortably next season, so I think Voss has his work cut out for him. I reckon this ties in with the interest in Tippett, given that he could potentially put us right in the mix with these other teams, if there is also reasonably expected improvement from some of our other players.

Outside of trading talent into the team and better performance from the more established young players, I think the biggest degree of improvement to the team will have to come from likes of Beams, Bewick, Polec and Green who have all shown promising signs. These players can all improve the quality of our midfield and small goal-kicking options, which have been two of our biggest worries for a long time now. This year, they've all shown that they can improve team performance when they've been in the team. If they're not selected regularly enough or don't make the improvements required (and no other player steps up in their roles instead), then I can't imagine that we'll make significant enough improvement to better our 2012 performance, which I reckon will probably cost Voss his job.

 

[Skoob]

Awesome, another sack voss thread. I thought all this had been covered.
We have better players and playing better structures than last year or the year before so I assumed we had put this to bed.
Building blah, blah, improved blah blah.
Very frustrating to watch at the moment but I trust experience will be the difference in the end.

 

[Stocka]

I think Tippett would struggle with similar delivery we dish up to Brown et al.

I reckon Tippett is one of the best in the league at taking contested and "difficult" marks and I wouldn't regard the Crows as being a "laser-point" unit when it comes to kicking to him in the forward line. He seems to be able to pluck them on the lead, flying at the pack and also when going one-on-one. He seems to not only be able to hold his position well, but also pull them in even when he looks outpositioned, largely due to his leap and ability to outreach opponents.

He rarely looks "out of the contest" for mine and also has good ability at ground level. I reckon he could make poor kicking look better than it is with his marking ability as well as giving our midfielders more, or continued confidence to get it in quick and long.

My only knocks on Tippett (pardon the pun), are that he has a history of injury (and that's even before his recent episodes of concussion) and that I think he'd still have to work on developing his rucking ability, were he to play that ruck/forward role. He's no mug in the ruck contests I've seen, but I wouldn't regard him as being anywhere near the likes of M.Clark as a second ruck (although, Clark is good enough to be first ruck, really). I think to be an effective second ruck who gives Leuenberger some relief around the ground (and not just up forward), he probably need to improve his tank to get to contests and provide an around-the-ground marking target and also develop a bit of resilience to the crashing and bashing of around-the-ground ruck work.

 

[Sanchez365]

I said player(s) because I don't think a 'star' coach is gettable and would be interested in coming to the Lions.

I'm in the camp of wanting us to target quality midfielders because, outside of Rich, our general delivery to forwards is ordinary and I think Tippett would struggle with similar delivery we dish up to Brown et al.

My gripe with Voss, which you pointed out, is the continual selection of certain players, irrespective of how rubbish they consistently perform at the expense of others who are held to a different standard and the moment they don't deliver in a game are axed.

I think that when we played the bulldogs we showed that we can regularly hit up small leads. Our main problem is kicking out of the backline when we get stuck. Losing Golby has really hurt in this regard, as has our only other big marking target being Hudson who isn't the best contested mark. If Tippett joined us he would give us that long 'out' target on the wing and actually have a chance to mark it, allowing us to quickly swing around and get it into forward 50 quickly. Add to that some taller midfielders making thier mark next year (Lester/Karnesis) and potentially another strong marking 3rd tall/HFF (Cornelius/Bewick/McGrath) and we won't break down on the wing anywhere near as much.

As good at defensive pressure Zorko/Green/Banfield are, none are particually strong overhead so can't provide that option on the wings or HFF as much, and Polks terrible form has been well documented.

 

[Nick Lions]

To answer the question directly, a star player is far more of a priority. A coach doesn't have to be a tactical genius, but he mustn't accept mediocrity or anything less than 100% effort from his players.

 

[POBT]

I don't think this thread is untimely. I was actually going to ask the question about whether we'd done enough this year for Voss to feel secure.

I've got to say that I'm still a bit sceptical that he's the right man but I think replacing your coach is a massive step to take unless you are certain that he's the wrong man and/or you have someone else lined up who is clearly better.

I'm 50/50 on whether he is the right bloke for the job. Put it this way - if Paul Roos came out and said "I want that job", I'd be off Vossy pretty quick. But I don't see a line of quality coaches who we are any chance of getting to come to Brisbane.

In other words, in the absence of a compelling reason to sack him, I'm happy to stick with him. Not exactly a huge vote of confidence!

 

[Bucking Beads]

I reckon 9 times out of 10 the coach is only as good as his cattle. I think Vossy stays next year unless he loses the players or a coach too good to refuse shows up.

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

Patience is a virtue. Thread is an overblown attempt to justify finding the right fall guy for disappointed supporters. 2nd year kids should determine selection policy & the fates of coaching staff should be tied to their perceived emotions. Yeah.. Ok.

 

[chopperduck]

Same old story, you can't go through an entire club review, have massive sweeping changes in administration, football department and start a rebuild of the playing list via youth and within 18 months cry because you aren't top 4 material. I don't get the impatience of people, knowing what the club has done 18 months prior.

We simply don't have the cattle, no matter who the coach is. What cattle we do have, are still very raw. I've seen enough to see that we are heading in the right direction, but we still need to get there. The next 2-3 years will make or break this playing list and it's flag hopes in the next 10 years. Likewise, there is plenty there for people to not like and be enough to be the final nail in the coffin for Voss for those who think that way. End of the day, i'll leave to decision to those better equipped to make it.

I'm happy with how the club is tracking, we've retain a lot of our young players and over turned a lot of the list, removing a lot of under performing players, still a few left, but that should be seen as a reminder of from how far back we are coming, and how quickly we are doing it. Lots of talented kids on our list, and we won't keep them all, for one reason or another, some of these kids won't be here in 5 years. It's why the next few years are so vital for us.

 

[Caiphus]

We are crying out for a high profile elite player more than anything. Whether we have one waiting on our list waiting to break out or have to recruit one through draft/trading is the big question.

I would give Vossy a solid B this season: I have seen a little too much "focus of the week" coaching this year, without a lot of the lessons carrying on to the next week when the focus is on something new. We have beaten who we were expected to beat and we had two surprise wins (it's easy to forget that the Demons were pretty heavy favourites in Round 1); we've had some blow outs, but I've also seen some real signs of quality creeping into our game over the graft that gave us "honourable losses" last year.

Everyone expected us to be bottom 4 this year and we will end up bottom 6-7 to exceed expectations.

I wish finals talk never came up in the middle of the season... that false glimmer of hope set us up for disappointment and now we are looking at the season through an overly critical lense of "what might have been".

 

[Nuggo]

I don't think this thread is untimely. I was actually going to ask the question about whether we'd done enough this year for Voss to feel secure.

I've got to say that I'm still a bit sceptical that he's the right man but I think replacing your coach is a massive step to take unless you are certain that he's the wrong man and/or you have someone else lined up who is clearly better.

I'm 50/50 on whether he is the right bloke for the job. Put it this way - if Paul Roos came out and said "I want that job", I'd be off Vossy pretty quick. But I don't see a line of quality coaches who we are any chance of getting to come to Brisbane.

In other words, in the absence of a compelling reason to sack him, I'm happy to stick with him. Not exactly a huge vote of confidence!

I think only the pure Voss supporters are 100% behind him. He started off with the blinkers on and probably hasn't pulled the ship far enough around to get a full vote of confidence. But being on the inside it could very well be different - he could be doing a bang up job and we may not even know it. My only concern is not so much with Voss and his capabilities but of those judging him. Do they have the experience and the gonads to pull the trigger earlier enough if required.