Society/Culture When is racism really racism?

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Sweet Jesus

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You're basically saying all ethnonationalism is exactly the same. I disagree.
Obviously I didn't say that. This is a bad faith attempt to avoid my arguments.

I'm saying that we should resist ethnonationalism generally.

How do you distinguish "good ethnonationalism" from "bad ethnonationalism"? How do you object to this "bad ethnonationalism" while defending it in its other forms? What is the principle that informs this distinction? Or do you just pick and choose?

Either address these questions or concede the point. Don't distort them to get yourself off the hook. That's bullshit.

The distinction is the one you keep pretending is a defining point of all ethnonationalism. That it directly means excluding others.
It creates an "in group, out group" dynamic based on ethnicity. We should resist ethnonationalism generally because of where this leads.

I'm yet to see you respond to this point.

You mention Modi, but there is no formal church as an institution in India. Hinduism isn't like that. And even the ethnonationalist ideology that Modi is hijacking actually makes allowance for people of multiple different religions.
India is meant to be a secular state but Modi has put Hindu nationalism at the heart of his governing philosophy.

You should ask Indian Muslims if they feel excluded by Hindu nationalism.

Have you heard about the Gujarat riots? The Ayodhya mosque? Or the Citizenship Amendment Bill that explicitly discriminates against Muslims? Have you heard of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, which is the umbrella organisation that fostered Modi's BJP?

rad roo needs all the help he can get. And his point was a good one, however clumsily made - that is there is still heaps of racism in Australia.
It wasn't a good point. It was nonsense.

Pointing out that there is racism in Australia makes no point either way.
 
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ferball

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Obviously I didn't say that. This is a bad faith attempt to avoid my arguments.

I'm saying that we should resist ethnonationalism generally.

How do you distinguish "good ethnonationalism" from "bad ethnonationalism"? How do you object to this "bad ethnonationalism" while defending it in its other forms? What is the principle that informs this distinction? Or do you just pick and choose?

Either address these questions or concede the point. Don't distort them to get yourself off the hook. That's bullshit.
I thought I was clear.

Good ethnonationalism celebrates what is unique about a culture, bad ethnonationalism excludes people who don't share that culture.

Obviously the "bad ethnonationalism" you are objecting to is the use of ethnonationalism to exclude other people from access to society. IE Racism. It gets worse when people use that process to gain and hold state power.


India is meant to be a secular state but Modi has put Hindu nationalism at the heart of his governing philosophy.

You should ask Indian Muslims if they feel excluded by Hindu nationalism.

Have you heard about the Gujarat riots? The Ayodhya mosque? Or the Citizenship Amendment Bill that explicitly discriminates against Muslims?
Modi is a fascist who is trying to piss all over Gandhi's legacy. That is obviously bad ethnonationalism.


It wasn't a good point. It was nonsense.

Pointing out that there is racism in Australia makes no point either way.
You bumped this thread to pretend racism isn't something worth worrying about and to spout off some sh*t about it not being an issue anymore and that we are the least racist place in history. That's why ole mate reacted.
 

ferball

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He actually didn't say all ethnonationalism is the same. That's your straw man now, you're losing the argument you're doshonest on many levels.
Just like rad too i'm sure Blair cottrell makes some valid points on racism too that you dont.
Doesn't mean you should go into bat for him.

The reason you went in to bat for a pseudo nazi is because of your own racism exposed in this thread.
The premise of his argument is all ethnonationism by definition inspires the racist exclusion of other people.

Otherwise he wouldn't be asking to differentiate between some ethnonationalism and other ethnonationalism.
 

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Taylor

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I think tribalism is hard wired into humanity and the conflict it creates is part of why we exist as we do now, in terms of as advanced as we are.

The question for me is whether it is bad to choose your own people, or whether it only bad to exclude those who aren't your own people. They would appear to be the sides of the same coin but the intent with each is where the racism lives in my opinion.
 

Sweet Jesus

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I thought I was clear.

Good ethnonationalism celebrates what is unique about a culture, bad ethnonationalism excludes people who don't share that culture.
Merely celebrating a culture isn't ethnonationalism. That's ridiculous.

You can have a Diwali party or observe Passover or perform a haka without being an ethnonationalist.

You are watering down the meaning of ethnonationalism to make it sound more benign, in order to justify your double standard.

Obviously the "bad ethnonationalism" you are objecting to is the use of ethnonationalism to exclude other people from access to society. IE Racism. It gets worse when people use that process to gain and hold state power.
Ethnonationalism creates an "in group, out group" dynamic. It creates a requirement for entry based on ethnicity.

Give me an example of "good ethnonationalism" that doesn't do this.

Modi is a fascist who is trying to piss all over Gandhi's legacy. That is obviously bad ethnonationalism.
Because he's using ethnonationalism to promote an "in group, out group" dynamic, as is generally the case with ethnonationalism. And that's why we should reject it generally.

You bumped this thread to pretend racism isn't something worth worrying about
When did I say that? Stop being dishonest.

If you can't make real arguments, you should concede the point instead of making up bullshit.

some sh*t about it not being an issue anymore and that we are the least racist place in history. That's why ole mate reacted.
We should reject racism wherever we encounter it. But as far as racism in Australia goes, I have two basic questions:

1) When people say Australia is terribly racist, what are we comparing it to? Is there some other time and place that was infinitely less racist? I'd suggest the West in 2021 is perhaps the best time and place in history to be an ethnic minority.
2) Is Australia more or less racist than a country such as Japan that simply doesn't let anyone else in? Australia is a melting pot while Japan is 98 per cent "ethnically pure" - so who's the racist?
 
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Taylor

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1) When people say Australia is terribly racist, what are we comparing it to? Is there some other time and place that was infinitely less racist? I'd suggest the West in 2021 is perhaps the best time and place in history to be an ethnic minority.
You're dancing into the reality that progressive politics needs something to be fighting against and any perspective that isn't laser focused on what they tell you is a problem now will see both how much better it is locally than anywhere in the world but how much better it is historically too.

And being appreciative of your context would lead you to valuing it, wanting to protect it. Being conservative towards it.

We live at the pinnacle of human existence. Taking a moment to glance back over the shoulder will reinforce that, keeping your eyes fixed on the person's feet ahead of you on the ladder will keep you in your assigned perspective.
 

Sweet Jesus

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The premise of his argument is all ethnonationism by definition inspires the racist exclusion of other people.

Otherwise he wouldn't be asking to differentiate between some ethnonationalism and other ethnonationalism.
Ethnonationalism creates an "in group, out group" dynamic. It promotes a requirement for entry based on ethnicity.

Give me an example of "good ethnonationalism" that doesn't do this.
 

Sweet Jesus

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You're dancing into the reality that progressive politics needs something to be fighting against and any perspective that isn't laser focused on what they tell you is a problem now will see both how much better it is locally than anywhere in the world but how much better it is historically too.

And being appreciative of your context would lead you to valuing it, wanting to protect it. Being conservative towards it.

We live at the pinnacle of human existence. Taking a moment to glance back over the shoulder will reinforce that, keeping your eyes fixed on the person's feet ahead of you on the ladder will keep you in your assigned perspective.
I'm not sure how this is a response to anything I've said.
 

ExcitementMachine

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Ethnonationalism creates an "in group, out group" dynamic. It promotes a requirement for entry based on ethnicity.

Give me an example of "good ethnonationalism" that doesn't do this.
The only good point fizzball made was when he stated white ethnonationalism belongs in jail, I'll add that is along with other forms.
The best practice of what fizzball is alluding and almost yearning for is actually practised in jail by the segregation of races.

Racism doesn't discriminate by colour.
 

ferball

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Merely celebrating a culture isn't ethnonationalism. That's ridiculous.
Its not just celebrating a culture. Its a deeper thing than that.

You can have a Dewali party or observe Passover or perform a haka without being an ethnonationalist.

You are watering down the meaning of ethnonationalism to make it sound more benign, in order to justify your double standard.
You've never done any of those things have you?

Ethnonationalism creates an "in group, out group" dynamic. It creates a requirement for entry based on ethnicity.

Give me an example of "good ethnonationalism" that doesn't do this.
And? In group out group dynamics aren't gonna disappear. They're an evolutionary function of our neural and hormonal communication systems. They should be managed, and part of that management process is making "In Group/out group" dynamics less onerous and less important for access to opportunity in a society.


When did I say that? Stop being dishonest.



We should reject racism wherever we encounter it. But as far as racism in Australia goes, I have two basic questions:

1) When people say Australia is terribly racist, what are we comparing it to? Is there some other time and place that was infinitely less racist? I'd suggest the West in 2021 is perhaps the best time and place in history to be an ethnic minority.
2) Is Australia more or less racist than a country such as Japan that simply doesn't let anyone else in? Australia is a melting pot while Japan is 98 per cent "ethnically pure" - so who's the racist?
1) Comparing it to Australia 23 years ago.

2) Japan doesn't let anyone in. We pick and choose who we let in and often the basis of that is racist.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Its not just celebrating a culture. Its a deeper thing than that.

You've never done any of those things have you?
Now you're simply responding for the sake of responding without making any arguments.

And? In group out group dynamics aren't gonna disappear. They're an evolutionary function of our neural and hormonal communication systems. They should be managed, and part of that management process is making "In Group/out group" dynamics less onerous and less important for access to opportunity in a society.
So you now concede that ethnonationalism creates an "in group, out group" dynamic.

That's why we should resist ethnonationalism. That dynamic is fundamentally undesirable. Your argument is now "well it's not going to go away". That makes no point whatsoever about whether it's desirable or whether we should resist it. Crime and violence are also unlikely to disappear entirely from our societies. That doesn't mean we shrug our shoulders and accept it. We seek to minimise it as best we can because we don't want it. The same should be said about the "in group, out group" dynamics of ethnonationalism.

And you are now seeking to change the argument from being about whether ethnonationalism is desirable to a discussion about "opportunity".

Clearly you've conceded the main points of this argument as you're no longer seeking to engage them. You're seeking to shuffle sideways to talk about something else.

I've asked you repeatedly to explain the distinction between "good ethnonationalism" and "bad ethnonationalism". And you can't. What does that indicate?


1) Comparing it to Australia 23 years ago.

2) Japan doesn't let anyone in. We pick and choose who we let in and often the basis of that is racist.
So when did I say racism is simply not an issue anymore? Or did you make that up because you've run out of arguments?

You think Australia is more racist now than 23 years ago? Based on what?

What do you mean by "picking and choosing who we let in"? As opposed to what? Countries are allowed to have immigration policies.

And the difference between Australia and Japan is that Japan's immigration policy has kept the country 98 per cent "ethnically pure", whereas Australia is nothing like that. What's more racist?
 
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ferball

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Now you're simply responding for the sake of responding without making any arguments.
You're assuming those things are shallow and meaningless to people who will be engaging in them when they are in fact the basis of ethnonationalism.

So you now concede that ethnonationalism creates an "in group, out group" dynamic.

That's why we should resist ethnonationalism. That dynamic is fundamentally undesirable. Your argument is now "well it's not going to go away". That makes no point whatsoever about whether it's desirable or whether we should resist it. Crime and violence are also unlikely to disappear entirely from our societies. That doesn't mean we shrug our shoulders and accept it. We seek to minimise it as best we can because we don't want it. The same should be said about the "in group, out group" dynamics of ethnonationalism.
You're doing exactly the same fu**en thing! You're creating the same dynamic you are whinging about.

And you are now seeking to change the argument from being about whether ethnonationalism is desirable to a discussion about "opportunity".
There is nothing wrong with iethnonationalism unless it is used to deny others opportunity at which point it becomes a problem. Are you really too stupid to process that?


I've asked you repeatedly to explain the distinction between "good ethnonationalism" and "bad ethnonationalism". And you can't. What does that indicate?
I can, you're just unable to comprehend it. You are pretending it doesn't exist so you don't have to deal with it.

SJ - Show me the difference between this and that:

fb - This is this that is that.

SJ - No it isn't! See you can't do it!!.


So when did I say racism is simply not an issue anymore? Or did you make that up because you've run out of arguments?
In the post i linked to with your "woke twitter is rong d'ah there is no racism" crap.

You think Australia is more racist now than 23 years ago? Based on what?
My own personal experience.

What do you mean by "picking and choosing who we let in"? As opposed to what? Countries are allowed to have immigration policies.

And the difference between Australia and Japan is that Japan's immigration policy has kept the country 98 per cent "ethnically pure", whereas Australia is nothing like that. What's more racist?
Japan historically has a culture and genetic heritage tied to an identifiable piece of ground but you want them to stop all that and let you go there and live as if you have the same access to that cultural and genetic heritage as them. When you don't. What an entitled childish attitude. You want to colonise them the way the poms colonised Australia, Africa, The Middle east, India, the Asia-Pacific and the so called new world. That's not defending diversity. Its destroying diversity by making everyone the same. You may as well be a fascist.
 

ExcitementMachine

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There is nothing wrong with iethnonationalism unless it is used to deny others opportunity at which point it becomes a problem. Are you really too stupid to process

Its important to note that the topic was reintroduced by you to defend rad roos interpretations of ethnonatiobalism meaning soemthing different, something tolerable.
Pity for the uyrghers.

Basically you've turned this discussion from that into how many times you can mention colonisation, imperialism, almost as if you're on the ccp payroll

Unfortunately that you changed the goalposts and introduced the Bundjalung people,

Qhat is comes down to is you're not really here to engage, your here to troll and worst of all you're a racist.

No, han ethnonationalism is not acceptable.
 

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Sweet Jesus

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You're assuming those things are shallow and meaningless to people who will be engaging in them when they are in fact the basis of ethnonationalism.
I didn't say they are shallow or meaningless. I said they don't constitute ethnonationalism.

You're doing exactly the same fu**en thing! You're creating the same dynamic you are whinging about.
This literally makes no sense. You're ranting without making any points.

There is nothing wrong with iethnonationalism unless it is used to deny others opportunity at which point it becomes a problem. Are you really too stupid to process that?
Ethnonationalism is a problem if it creates an "in group, out group" dynamic, which it invariably does.

I don't think you should be calling anyone stupid after your arguments have so comprehensively failed.

I can, you're just unable to comprehend it. You are pretending it doesn't exist so you don't have to deal with it.

SJ - Show me the difference between this and that:

fb - This is this that is that.

SJ - No it isn't! See you can't do it!!.
You haven't come anywhere near making that case.

You're unravelling because your arguments have come up short and you've got nowhere to go.

You should have considered the implications of your positions before wading in.

In the post i linked to with your "woke twitter is rong d'ah there is no racism" crap.
I didn't say that racism is not an issue. Why are you making things up?

My own personal experience.
That's not an argument.

Japan historically has a culture and genetic heritage tied to an identifiable piece of ground but you want them to stop all that and let you go there and live as if you have the same access to that cultural and genetic heritage as them. When you don't. What an entitled childish attitude. You want to colonise them the way the poms colonised Australia, Africa, The Middle east, India, the Asia-Pacific and the so called new world. That's not defending diversity. Its destroying diversity by making everyone the same.
I'm not talking about "colonising" anything. That's nonsense. You're becoming irrational and increasingly dishonest, further suggesting that you know your arguments have come up short.

I'm simply asking which immigration policy is more racist.

Is it Australia's immigration policy that has created a melting pot or Japan's immigration policy that has preserved a society that's 98 per cent "ethnically pure"?

Why can't you answer?

You may as well be a fascist.
You've obviously failed here but I don't think you should advertise it like this. Nothing I've said in any way resembles fascism. That's just your desperation showing.
 
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Sweet Jesus

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Its important to note that the topic was reintroduced by you to defend rad roos interpretations of ethnonatiobalism meaning soemthing different, something tolerable.
Pity for the uyrghers.

Basically you've turned this discussion from that into how many times you can mention colonisation, imperialism, almost as if you're on the ccp payroll

Unfortunately that you changed the goalposts and introduced the Bundjalung people,

Qhat is comes down to is you're not really here to engage, your here to troll and worst of all you're a racist.

No, han ethnonationalism is not acceptable.
What's the deal with ferball?

What are his ideological commitments driving him towards defending ethnonationalism while fixating on Australian racism?

There's clearly some very specific software running that has led him to these positions.
 

ExcitementMachine

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What's the deal with ferball?

What are his ideological commitments driving him towards defending ethnonationalism while fixating on Australian racism?

There's clearly some very specific software running that has led him to these positions.
I much prefer people like rad roo even Blair cottrell, they are honest and in the case of rad roo on this forum that honesty was refreshing.
 

ferball

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I didn't say they are shallow or meaningless. I said they don't constitute ethnonationalism.
Your understanding of them is shallow and meaningless hence your inability to link to them to ethnonationalism.

Ethnonationalism is a problem if it creates an "in group, out group" dynamic, which it invariably does.
No. i reject that assertion. Are you saying anything that creates an ingroup/outgroup dynamic is a problem? Why do you support a footy team then?

I don't think you should be calling anyone stupid after your arguments have so comprehensively failed.

You haven't come anywhere near making that case.

You're unravelling because your arguments have come up short and you've got nowhere to go.
OK. If it makes you feel better. People can read what i typed and make up their own minds.

I didn't say that racism is not an issue. Why are you making things up?
Its the subtext of your whole comment bumping this thread.

I'm not talking about "colonising" anything. That's nonsense. You're becoming irrational and increasingly dishonest, further suggesting that you know your arguments have come up short.

I'm simply asking which immigration policy is more racist.

Is it Australia's immigration policy that has created a melting pot or Japan's immigration policy that has preserved a society that's 98 per cent "ethnically pure"?
Ours obviously. Why do you expect other people, in other parts of the world to conform to what you want to see in the world?

Becoming irrational? Lol. I became irrational along time ago.

That's not an argument.
fu** off.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Your understanding of them is shallow and meaningless hence your inability to link to them to ethnonationalism.
You haven't made that case.

You've suggested that merely "celebrating a culture" constitutes ethnonationalism, which is nonsense. It's designed purely to justify your double standard.

No. i reject that assertion. Are you saying anything that creates an ingroup/outgroup dynamic is a problem? Why do you support a footy team then?
No, I didn't say that.

I said that ethnonationalism is a problem because it creates an "in group, out group" dynamic based on ethnicity.

Obviously this is what we're talking about.

Relating it to supporting a football team is the latest evidence that you've run out of arguments.

OK. If it makes you feel better. People can read what i typed and make up their own minds.
Yes, they can read your various distortions, goalpost shifting and outright dishonesty, culminating in a bizarre, baseless accusation of fascism.

What set of ideological commitments has led you down this path? Maybe you should reconsider them.

Its the subtext of your whole comment bumping this thread.
Oh, the subtext!

So I didn't actually say it. You've just decided to claim I said it because "subtext"?

Are you always this obviously dishonest?

Ours obviously.
How is Australia's immigration policy, which allows people from all over the world to become citizens, more racist than Japan's policy which preserves 98 per cent "ethnic purity"?

What would you say if Australia had a policy designed to preserve that kind of ethnic purity? Australia used to have one - it was called the White Australia policy. Japan still has its own version of that.

Why do you expect other people, in other parts of the world to conform to what you want to see in the world?
I want people to be less racist. Why do I want other people to "conform" to that? Hopefully the answer to that question is self-evident.
 
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ExcitementMachine

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Your understanding of them is shallow and meaningless hence your inability to link to them to ethnonationalism.



No. i reject that assertion. Are you saying anything that creates an ingroup/outgroup dynamic is a problem? Why do you support a footy team then?



OK. If it makes you feel better. People can read what i typed and make up their own minds.



Its the subtext of your whole comment bumping this thread.



Ours obviously. Why do you expect other people, in other parts of the world to conform to what you want to see in the world?

Becoming irrational? Lol. I became irrational along time ago.



fu** off.
Are you drunk?
 

ferball

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You've suggested that merely "celebrating a culture" constitutes ethnonationalism, which is nonsense. It's designed purely to justify your double standard.
The relationship people have with their cultures is deeper than you are allowing for obviously.

And er ... what double standard?

No, I didn't say that.

I said that ethnonationalism is a problem because it creates an "in group, out group" dynamic based on ethnicity.
No, that exists anyway. It doesn't come from ethnonationalism. Ethnonationalism comes from it and if the degree of in group bias is high enough its gonna be a toxic form of ethnonationalism. If you like ethnonationalism is an effect of that process of in-group favoritism - you're putting the cart before the horse.

Yes, they can read your various distortions, goalpost shifting and outright dishonesty, culminating in a bizarre, baseless accusation of fascism.

What set of ideological commitments has led you down this path?
Whatever you reckon fascist.

Oh, the subtext!

So I didn't actually say it. You've just decided to claim I said it because "subtext"?
Yeah, the subtext, and the actual words you used in the comment I linked.

This rhetorical garbage for example:

Now, the new creed of Anti-Racism appears to define racism as any system or outcome where there is some racial disparity, whether race is the causal factor in that or not. The new creed of Anti-Racism can identify White Supremacy everywhere. Indeed, Western society has White Supremacy baked into it, so Western society is therefore racist fundamentally. I'm not sure what the solution to that should be? Remake all of Western society so it's less fundamentally racist? That may in fact be the objective. Although it's not clear how that would happen or how we would know when/whether this project has succeeded or not.

Its bullshit. You're making this crap up to give you the chance to ignore the way systemic racist outcomes are built into institutional behaviour.


As opposed to this which is just a comprehension fail:

I often wonder, when people say Western society (be it Australia, US, UK) is racist, what are they comparing it to?

Obviously they aren't comparing it to anything, just judging actions on their own merits.

How is Australia's immigration policy, which allows people from all over the world to become citizens, more racist than Japan's policy which preserves 98 per cent "ethnic purity

What would you say if Australia had a policy designed to preserve that kind of ethnic purity? Australia used to have one - it was called the White Australia policy. Japan still has its own version of that.

I want people to be less racist. Why do I want other people to "conform" to that? Hopefully the answer to that question is self-evident.
Who cares?

The only reason the West is multicultural is all the colonisation. Without that why would anyone from elsewhere have ended up in a European society other than following their looted resources? The Japanese didn't just recently invade their home islands, wipe out the locals and then do what they could to loot the place and keep those looted resources flowing back to the people who ordered (and profit most from) the colonisation in the first place. (Sure they tried and failed a generation ago, but not in Japan itself.) That is what the White Australia policy was for. Keeping the natural wealth of Australia flowing back to England.

The Japanese might make the reasonable argument that their immigration policy is designed to prevent the peacetime version of the same thing happening in their own homelands.

So afaic you banging about our "multicultural society" as some great achievement or the pinnacle of human civilisation is disingenuous at best and more likely to be racist propaganda that exists to resist change not some accurate assessment of reality.
 

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