When to count AFL premierships, and NOT AFL/VFL ones?

[Jesse Custer]

Where is the Roman Empire positioned at the United Nations?

Haha....

Without history, we are nothing. History is what brought us to this point today. And has a habit of repeating itself as well.

Do not disrespect it.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

My initial post WAS based on facts which you then attempted to break down with nothing besides rhetoric!!!

You're right, you're post was not rhetoric, there was very little that was articulate or persuasive. My post also was not rhetoric. It addressed your points and expanded on my own. Your post was dismissive deflection at best.

I'm sure there were people stating the same thing about the steam engine.

This is not a world is flat or round' debate we are having here. It is quite simply working out what is fact and what is not. The fact is that the VFL expanded into the AFL because they were best placed to do so. The fact is that VFL premierships are kept as an ongoing record with AFL premiership.

Your OPINION is that as the AFL is a national competition and the VFL was state based, that the two should be considered separately. I disagree and have my own OPINION. My OPINION is supported by FACT however. Anytime you want to separate the official records and not make it clear that it is OPINION, I will be there to remind you of the FACTS.

The VFL and the AFL were not and never will different competitions, unless the competition is dissolved and starts again. None of this wishy washy, 'well this is different and this is different, they may as well be considered different'.

See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil, does not constitute a victory.

In relation to this issue, there IS no evil. Just a matter of history and how things unfolded. You might prefer to live in an alternate reality, where the poor feeble VFL collapsed and begged the super powers in other states to save them by starting a new national competition, but that is not the reality of the situation.

You seem to conveniently forget that he "AFL's official line" is an organic ever changing process.

Different figureheads might hold different opinions on some topics that are raised and reraised and which provide different examples. I'm not sure though that the VFL transition to the AFL happened more than once for a shifting version of facts to presented. You honestly think that someone can come out and say that it did not go down the way it did? Basically make up a story in order to justify a change in history?

I see, so in your mind I either agree with you, or I am a troll?

No, you can disagree, but if half of your responses are waxing lyrically or calling someone's else's opinions 'utter bullshit' rather than debating the point with your own examples and analogies, then you don't look like you are engaging in a debate.

 

[Wally Carter]

ODN, there is no point going on as you are quite clearly deluded.

Collingwood, Essendon and Carlton no longer rule the football world.


The only thing inevitable in this world is change.

I hope you have a good therapist handy when that change finally comes.

 

[Wally Carter]

Haha....

Without history, we are nothing. History is what brought us to this point today. And has a habit of repeating itself as well.

Do not disrespect it.

Way to completely miss the point.

Stick to Bay 13 champ.

 

[Jesse Custer]

Way to completely miss the point.

Stick to Bay 13 champ.

How bout reading it and absorbing the truth behind it.

I await your next instalment on how Essendon destroyed North 80 years ago....

 

[Wally Carter]

How bout reading it and absorbing the truth behind it.

I await your next instalment on how Essendon destroyed North 80 years ago....

I suppose it's not everyday you find out your club is a soulless parasitical changeling, with a soiled history.

Bothered much?

 

[Jesse Custer]

I suppose it's not everyday you find out your club is a soulless parasitical changeling, with a soiled history.

Bothered much?

Not at all, i actually enjoy it when a bitter minnow club supporter has a cry about the good old days. Blaming everyone else for their plight. How embarrassing.

Very amusing.

 

[kouta70]

My 2 cents

Its the same comp. The AFL are very proud of their 100+ year history. They will and always should count VFL wins.

The comp may have changed in set up, clubs etc but its still the same comp.

Should we all start counting again after next year and the next when 2 new teams join us? Of course not.

What about in 30 years when we have a NZ and PNG team and they call it the Australasian Football League? (For arguments sake) Do we discount all this time we are experiencing and enjoying now? I think not.

Take note Port Power, Same comp means the same comp. I don't care if you won 400 flags in the rat town series. They aren’t VFL/AFL flags.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Oh, well - at least you guys have solved the dilemma about cricket rankings.

We can now say Don Bradman was just a hack - good for his time, but not worth much in the current rankings - after all when he was playing, Zimbabwe and Bangledesh were not test nations, neither were Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Australia just didn't play New Zealand. All those centuries and series wins against England don't mean squat.

If you didn't play after Bangladesh became a test nation, your performances must be severely downgraded.

From memory he did average around 200 against South Africa and 150 against India because they were both pathetic at the time. I mean India were playing on mats. If it was so easy every good batsman would be making 380 against Zimbabwe like Hayden did.

He's probably right.

But that doesnt change the fact that despite the considerable number of changes over the years to the game that his records are still compared directly to those of modern day players.[/quote]

What are these considerable number of changes that you mention? Can you list them for me? Do you even know anything about cricket?

Cricket has virtually always been international. The first ever international was played between the U.S.A. and Canada.
The VFL was a local, suburban league down the bottom of the world until the 80s. We may all agree that it's the best sport in the world but it's fact that that's what it was.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

You're right, international cricket has not changed one dolt since 1930.

My bad.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

You're right, international cricket has not changed one dolt since 1930.

My bad.

Fair enough, now what are those considerable changes that you post about?

Apart from modes of transport, technology and communications of course, what considerable changes has there actually be in the onfield battle between bat and ball?

 

[AndyLucimitis]

So what about Brownlow Medals - are Robert Harvey and Adam Goodes the only true legends of AFL football ?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

So what about Brownlow Medals - are Robert Harvey and Adam Goodes the only true legends of AFL football ?

Who is this person Brownlow that you speak of?????

For that matter who the hell is Norm Smith????

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Yeah, didn't think so

Of course I could be jumping the gun, you could be furiously googling trying to find something. I thought since you seemed so confident about it in your post that you might just have a few there hanging around in your head.

 

[Wallaby]

Once heard Allan Border say that Bradman told him that he (Bradman) would have averaged about 55 if he had of been exposed to the West Indies pace attack of the latter part of last century.

Yeah, that sounds about right. He would have been in his 70's, so the reflexes were probably a tad slower.

 

[murphy2bedabest]

I think eventually we are going to stop counting the VFL premierships won by clubs, and simply say that they have won x amount of AFL premierships.

Already people say stuff like, "yeah we have won 10 premierships, but most of them were back in the VFL".

I reckon give it 15 years, and a lot of people will only be quoting AFL premierships, and saying the Bulldogs have never won an AFL premiership.

So another 15 year without a premiership, ok as long as i know

 

[Premiership Quarter]

An AFL flag is just the same as a VFL flag. nothing more nothing less and will be counted as such forever more. Dont forget the interstate clubs joined the VFL Competition. You joined us, you wanted to be a part of us. The league never changed in any way shape or form, nothing was disbanded and rejoined, it was a simple name change. Now that you have the honour of being part of the greatest Football league in the world lets not start denigrating or devaluing its history. The mighty Blues will always be considered to ahve 16 Premierships until we win others of course and you new clubs now have the honour of having the opportunity to catch up.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

ODN, there is no point going on as you are quite clearly deluded.

I'm following history as recorded and I am the deluded one. Good call.

Collingwood, Essendon and Carlton no longer rule the football world.

Nobody said they do, but there is always a place for truth.

The only thing inevitable in this world is change.

Yes, I hear they are revising history as we speak. Music will now officially have been invented by Kenny G and Britney Spears. Osama Bin Laden was the star of Leave It To Beaver. Bill and Ted discovered the earth was round during their Most Excellent Adventure. You would have no problem with that, since you think that what actually occurred can be changed with the stroke of a pen. Let's hope history doesn't record you incorrectly for the sake of a future person's bruised ego.

I hope you have a good therapist handy when that change finally comes.

And if it doesn't? Where will you be?

 

[sen entertainment bloke]

Noble concession by Bradman, but not measurable in any way.

You are playing a game of semantics, possibly being deliberately perverse, possibly because your argument is weak ... I can't be sure.

A person or an organisation is a physical entity. If you feel that an original entity can not change or it is not original, you will also object if I said 'same' entity because if it changes it is not the same.

That is well and good but you can't use it to demonstrate the difference between the VFL and the AFL. The AFL as an entity changes with every annoouncement, every rule change, every tactic, every new player etc etc.

As an entity, the VFL is the same physical entity as the AFL, albeit with changes, changes I might add that it has continually had since its inception.

Not sure if I am trying to be anything, let alone perverse. But you are an old dark navy ostrich.

The AFL can't be the same physical entity as the VFL was.

Why?

Well, you can work it out can't you? Something to do with the physical properties of Australia versus Victoria.

Your "changes" (bolded above) are trying to call Victoria Australia. Madcap notion.

Victorian teams can still keep their history. But territorial expansion of the league into a national one casts that history into a new light as time goes on.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Not sure if I am trying to be anything, let alone perverse. But you are an old dark navy ostrich.

You think so? So do you think the VFL and AFL are officially separate competitions or not?

The AFL can't be the same physical entity as the VFL was.

Why?

Well, you can work it out can't you? Something to do with the physical properties of Australia versus Victoria.

Your "changes" (bolded above) are trying to call Victoria Australia. Madcap notion.

How simplistic do you want to get? I make a product and sell it in my home town. I then get bold and start to ship it out to the other states. Oops did I just start a new company without realising? Where on earth do you get the idea that you can't change without becoming something new or entirely different?

Victorian teams can still keep their history. But territorial expansion of the league into a national one casts that history into a new light as time goes on.

Not as time goes on, as it happens. The AFL updated their history at the time and it is still reflected.

The decade begins a new era in the game, the Victorian Football League becomes the Australian Football League, acknowledging the national expansion, with clubs now in Sydney, Queensland & Perth, and the league adopts the much more national official name.

There was your new light, officially recorded by the AFL themselves. Not sure why you are still waiting for time to go on.

AFL - The Story So Far: A Chronology 1897 – present day

Seems the AFL don't really make a distinction does it?

I also could have sworn seeing the AFL celebrate its centenary season in 1996. Did they miscalculate? Were they really celebrating their 7th season but couldn't count?

Yes, I'm the ostrich. The facts don't support you but I'm the ostrich. Saying it doesn't exactly make it so though does it?

 

[parano1a]

Here's some food for thought:

- The Western Bulldogs have never won a premiership in any competition, VFA, VFL or AFL.

- North Melbourne are not allowed to include 1999 in their premierships because the 1999 AFL Grand Final was officially won by the club "Kangaroos", North Melbourne did not participate in the competition that season.

 

[LightTower4]

I found it funny that hardly any (if any at all) Saints or Dogs fans posted in here. Much less Freo, Richmond and Melbourne.

They should still count.

Just don't gloat too much about flags that were won 50 years before you were born, please XD

I just can't be bothered.
This is probably the 50th thread on this topic over the past 5 years.

 

[Wally Carter]

Here's some food for thought:

More like snacks for mental short people.

- The Western Bulldogs have never won a premiership in any competition, VFA, VFL or AFL.

9 x VFA premiers, 1 x VFL premiers, 0 x AFL premiers.

- North Melbourne are not allowed to include 1999 in their premierships because the 1999 AFL Grand Final was officially won by the club "Kangaroos", North Melbourne did not participate in the competition that season.

Fair enough.

The club that now goes by the name Collingwood, no longer exists as that club is no longer situated in Collingwood.

 

[sen entertainment bloke]

You think so? So do you think the VFL and AFL are officially separate competitions or not?

Not sure how much officially has got to do with it. They are different competitions. You are being silly aren't you. The original VFL morphed into the AFL. The same as the VFA morphed into what we now know as the VFL.

How simplistic do you want to get? I make a product and sell it in my home town. I then get bold and start to ship it out to the other states. Oops did I just start a new company without realising? Where on earth do you get the idea that you can't change without becoming something new or entirely different?

Marketing is not analogous with a football league. A football league represents a geographical area. It what it does. A saleable product represents a need in a market. You should be able to see that everytime you draw on an analogy you are out of ways to say the Victoria is Australia.


Seriously ODN, if it was still the Victorian Football League, it would still be called the Victorian Football League.

 

[btdg]

Here's some food for thought:

- The Western Bulldogs have never won a premiership in any competition, VFA, VFL or AFL.

- North Melbourne are not allowed to include 1999 in their premierships because the 1999 AFL Grand Final was officially won by the club "Kangaroos", North Melbourne did not participate in the competition that season.

Don't forget some other classic examples of the same phenomenon:

- Cassius Clay finishing his boxing career undefeated with a record of 19-0, then being replaced by a totally separate boxer named Muhammad Ali, who went on to become world champion. Official boxing statistics properly contain separate entries for the two boxers reflecting that they were in fact separate people.

- Jarrad Rooke playing 84 games for Geelong, then retiring and being replaced by a totally new player named Max Rooke who has since played in two premiership teams, a pretty good result for a player who has only played about 40 games total.

- Geelong's Gary Hocking becoming an entirely new entity ('whiskers') for a week. This was then followed by a totally different Gary Hocking playing for Geelong later on. All games played by the first Gary Hocking are treated separately by the league because they were clearly two separate people.

- My mum (a Doctor) ceasing to exist after marrying my Dad, and being replaced by a totally new person. Of course, she had to go back to medical school for 7 years because study she completed prior to changing her name no longer counted.

- Safeway supermarkets changing their name to Woolworths in Victoria, and thus not having to pay any outstanding creditors because they were, like, totally a new company.

Its amazing how changing the name of something makes it a totally new thing with no history at all. So easy to do - its a wonder more criminals don't try this tactic...