Opinion Where Are We At?

[Bird Man]

Port has got me thinking cause i HATE it when clubs who have been down for a shorter time then us start doing better than us.

Questions to you savy gentleman !

DO we have the players to take us to Finals and onwards ?
DO we Have the right coach? ( All thsi talk of dimma being out coached blah)

I think the flood gates of anger and call for change will open if we lose to Cats and Port

To sum this thread up WHERE ARE WE AT AS A CLUB??

 

[johnno77]

WE are solid as a rock! We'll finish in the 8 this year. We have the players and we have the coaching TEAM to get the job done. We wont win the flag but we're in good shape. A couple of losses hasn't ruined our season despite some of the nonsense being floated around here.

 

[living_in_syd]

Our fitness is a little worrying. Hope it improves but it has been quit noticeable.

Nor sure what's happened ore summer but guys are just knackered by half time.

As a result they lose composure and rush it on to foot

 

[tunksy]

port didnt do a compete rebuild like us, either did west coast or the crows. their lists were in much much better shape than ours and have had decent spines to build around.

 

[Blueyboy74]

Wish we got Darren Burgess. Fitness is so massive these days. Maybe a bit of that is mental - the ability to keep running HARD when you think you can't and not make a token jog to the next contest

 

[Dr Awkward]

Firstly, I think we'll beat Port.

Secondly, people really need to take a step back I think. I posted this in another thread but I'll say it again. This team has almost been rebuilt from zero. We were an atrociously uncompetitive club about 4 years ago. To be where we are now, with mostly young players, is a good achievement.

To be in the hunt for a flag you need layers of depth. When Francis came in as the recruiter and then later when Hardwick came in as coach we had an extremely shallow list. The evidence of that is how few good players we have over about 26. In fact we could field an under-26 team and it would almost be the same. All our best players are young. What needs to happen now is these guys need to keep improving and then we need to continue to add layers to the side over the next 2-3 years to have a crack at top 4 between 2014 - 2019.

We still have some development to do an we still need to force some players out and find out who is good enough. I don't think any of the following players (on current form) are top 4 worthy:

- Grigg
- Newman
- Jackson
- Petterd
- Tuck
- Nahas
- Batchelor
- Helbig

Obviously you can carry a couple of those guys. Every team has passengers but you gotta limit them as best as possible. We need a bit more talent to come through to force these guys out.

Bringing in guys like Knights, Chaplin, Petterd, Maric, Grigg, Houli, Morris has been very very important and I think we should do it again at the end of this year. It barely costs us anything and if half of them come off then it's worth it.

The most exciting thing is our midfield crop. With Conca, Ellis, Vlastuin coming up a year or two behind Cotchin and Martin it's pretty awesome.

 

[Bazzar]

Port has got me thinking cause

They have played Melbourne, GWS, Crows, Suns, West Coast
/thread

 

[Hounddd]

They have played Melbourne, GWS, Crows, Suns, West Coast
/thread

Perspective

West Coast are really struggling at this point, and even the game against Adelaide. Showdowns and Derbys are always 50/50 no matter of ladder positions. Port are nowhere near us. They won't make the 8.

 

[Grockadoc]

Dimma's first year was 2010. This was our list:


1. Astbury, David
2. Browne, Andrew
3. Collins, Andrew
4. Connors, Daniel
5. Cotchin, Trent
6. Cousins, Ben
7. Dea, Matthew
8. Deledio, Brett
9. Edwards, Shane
10. Farmer, Mitch
11. Foley, Nathan
12. Graham, Angus
13. Griffiths, Ben
14. Grimes, Dylan
15. Hislop, Tom
16. Jackson, Daniel
17. King, Jake
18. Martin, Dustin
19. McGuane, Luke
20. McMahon, Jordan
21. Moore, Kelvin
22. Morton, Mitch
23. Nahas, Robin
24. Nason, Ben
25. Newman, Chris
26. Polo, Dean
27. Post, Jayden
28. Rance, Alex
29. Riewoldt, Jack
30. Simmonds, Troy
31. Tambling, Richard
32. Taylor, Troy
33. Thomson, Adam
34. Thursfield, Will
35. Tuck, Shane
36. Vickery, Tyrone
37. Webberley, Jeromey
38. White, Matthew

The bolded are no longer on the list.

That is 19 players gone from our list in the space of 4 years.

Players still on the list from 2010:

1. Astbury, David
5. Cotchin, Trent
7. Dea, Matthew
8. Deledio, Brett
9. Edwards, Shane
11. Foley, Nathan
13. Griffiths, Ben
14. Grimes, Dylan
16. Jackson, Daniel
17. King, Jake
18. Martin, Dustin
19. McGuane, Luke
23. Nahas, Robin
25. Newman, Chris
28. Rance, Alex
29. Riewoldt, Jack
35. Tuck, Shane
36. Vickery, Tyrone
38. White, Matthew

The leaves 19 players, meaning we have half a new list compared to 2010.



Our list this year:

Richmond Tigers 2013 AFL List

1 Chris Newman (vet)
2 Dylan Grimes
3 Brett Deledio (vc)
4 Dustin Martin
5 Brandon Ellis
6 Shaun Grigg
7 Matt Dea
8 Jack Riewoldt
9 Trent Cotchin (c)
10 Shane Edwards
11 Jake Batchelor
12 David Astbury
14 Bachar Houli
15 Chris Knights
16 Luke McGuane
18 Alex Rance
20 Ivan Maric
21 Shane Tuck
23 Daniel Jackson
24 Ben Griffiths
25 Troy Chaplin
26 Robin Nahas
27 Aaron Edwards
28 Jake King
29 Tyrone Vickery
30 Reece Conca
31 Nick Vlastuin
32 Brad Helbig
33 Kamdyn McIntosh
34 Liam McBean
35 Matthew White
36 Matthew McDonough
38 Steven Morris
39 Tom Derickx
41 Nathan Foley
43 Todd Elton
44 Matthew Arnot
45 Brett O'Hanlon


Bolded indicates new additions to the squad since 2010.





The quality of our list, compared to 2010 is phenomenal. I reckon if we were to play our 2013 best 22 against the 2010 best 22, the 2013 team would win very convincingly.

You can look at our win/losses this year and question the coach, but when you do that, take a look back at our percentages, since Dimma started. In 2012, our final percentage was 25% higher than the end of 2011.

 

[Bazzar]

That was a shocking list when Dimma took over.

Good work Grock

 

[Grockadoc]

In 2010 our averages were (rounded to nearest whole figure):

Score For: 78 points.
Score Against: 107 points
Score Differential (For - Against): -29 points.
Average Score per win: 100 points.
Winning Margin: 26 points.
Average Score per loss: 70 points.
Losing Margin: 50 points.
Final Ladder Percentage: 73%




In 2012 our averages were (Differential compared to 2010 in brackets):

Score For: 99 points. (+21 points.)
Score Against: 88 (-19 points)
Score Differential (For - Against): +11 (+40 points.)
Average Score per win: 114 points. (+14 points.)
Winning Margin: 39 points. (+13 points.)
Average Score per loss: 84 points. (+14 points.)
Losing Margin: 15 points. (-35 points)
Final Ladder Percentage: 112% (+39%)




So far in 2013 (After 5 games):

Score For: 100 (+1 from 2012)
Score Against: 89 (+1 from 2012)
Score Differential (For - Against): +11 (Even from 2012)
Average Score per win: 113 points. (-1 point from 2012)
Winning Margin: 30 points. (-9 points from 2012.)
Average Score per loss: 80 points. (-4 points from 2012)
Losing Margin: 18 points. (+3 points from 2012)
Ladder Percentage: 112% (After 5 games in 2012, ladder percentage was 94%) (+18%)


These stats show a stark contrast in our improvement in 3 years, with Dimma at the helm. Considering we were the 'worst team since Fitzroy', the way our averages have increased so much in such a short amount of time shows that we are definitely on the right track, and we are not that far off it.

 

[Tigerland]

Port are playing well but they have played Gold Coast, GWS and Melbourne so i'd expect them to fall back down the ladder soon enough.

Do we have the players? Well I think we have most of the pieces are on our list but some are not ready and we need 2 players that are not on the list.

On the list:
McGuanne is playing well but we won't be a real threat until a more talented player takes his spot like an Elton (who is not ready)
Also we need Griffiths to step up, he could be a monster at CHF if he gets it together.
Likewise Astbury needs to lift and show his talents.
Vickery will probably be at his best in 1 - 2 years
So tall KPP's I think we are set.
Tucky is good but we will need to find his replacement asap - Vlaustin when he builds his tank probably.
We need an aggressive lock down tagger - Hoping Arnot will be that player.

Not on the list:
We need a speedy X factor crumbing forward as Nahas appears not to be the answer and I reckon he will be traded at years end.
So to the draft we go with that one to draft an X factor that can play straight away.
We will also need a hard defender with sublime foot skills and leadership that can pinpoint passes from defence and organise the troops (replacing Newman spot on the list and Pettard's spot in the team) Obviously not someone as highly rated as Hodge as it would cost too much but his type.
Don't think we can wait for the draft for that one so I'd say we need to scoure lists and rely on Blair Hartley for that one and find a great kicker with hardness and trade.

Not an immediate concern but for me this years draft I would like to see rnd 1 pick used for immediate needs and the rest long term prospects.

Rnd 1 - X factor small forward with speed
Rnd 2 - KP forward
Rnd 3 - KP back
Rnd 4 - take a risk on an X factor type that has been overlooked

Do we have the right Coach? Not sure, not convinced yet. By the end of the year we will know either way.

 

[Mr Magic]

Perspective

West Coast are really struggling at this point, and even the game against Adelaide. Showdowns and Derbys are always 50/50 no matter of ladder positions. Port are nowhere near us. They won't make the 8.

You also have to factor in at one point they were 40 points behind West coast. So they are not going that great .Having said that they are not a rabble, we tried to get Hartlett before we got Vickery and they have some good added players. Before Hinkley they had underestimated issues which appear to be partially sorted. Cornes is a champion, Westhoff is a ralent, Monfries good , Ebert a steal, they are not great but they are not that bad either. I think the fitness guy seems to give them an edge which we chased.

Good luck to them but i think we have the better list going forward. They will have an easier draw than us this year though

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

2009 was a shocking draft , way to many missed chances albeit to gain depth players at worst we ultimately lost 8 opportunities in that draft which would now have been in the system for 3 years and be starting to have a real influence , being our depth and having upside .
Simmonds gone after a month , McMahon didn't play at all , Nason , Webberly , Taylor , Hislop , Roberts , Farmer . Whilst we persisted with 2 Macdonald and Connors who never had the application to make AFL .
This year is the first year in 4 that we actually have the full compliment of the list trying to play AFL football .
We now have 5 players in our best 22 who couldn't hold down a spot in other sides best 22 , who have little upside , but have been brought in to add short term depth .
Grigg , Houli , Knights , Maric , Pettard .
The 2nd most influential player is limited , in that he isn't able to have an impact once certain areas of his game are targeted .
Our list although alot stronger has limited upside in the next 2 years when considering the possible retirements , which as previously mentioned is due IMO to previous errors in list management .
There is huge importance on players like Arnott , O'hanlon , Elton , Griffith , Williams , Astbury , Helbig , Conca ( injuries ) being able to hold down regular spots within the next 2 years , as that is how long we have to make a remarkable improvement before the franchises players start peaking and to be dominate the below players will need to be replaced within our best 22.
Grigg , Tuck , Newman , King , Pettard , McGuanne , Knights , and Maric .
We are just hanging in there in my opinion and will struggle to reach the hefty heights in the next 2 years others have as already marked down. We still have a few too many fair weather footballers in the best 22.
Selection in the next week or two interests me as to whether these types will be persisted with or the line has be drawn ?

 

[rfctigerarmy]

Perspective

West Coast are really struggling at this point, and even the game against Adelaide. Showdowns and Derbys are always 50/50 no matter of ladder positions. Port are nowhere near us. They won't make the 8.

I think you'll be suprised.

They play GWS and GC twice. I had a look at their fixture and they have at least 10 games which they'll win.

They've had a good draw so far, but are playing inspired footy. Their next month or two will be their big test when you see who they play.

 

[_RT_]

Port have played last years bottom 3 sides who look like being this years bottom 3 sides. They have also played an Adelaide side that is nowhere near as good as last years side and a West Coast side that is far below full strength and struggling to get going. Full credit to them for being 5-0 but they are playing their best 22 and have no injury concerns to anyone right now. Lets see how they fair when a few injuries hit and they aren't able to play their best 22 or the open free flowing game that they are currently allowed to play.

As for us we've played a top 4 side, a top 6 side, last years 9th and 10th placed sides and 15th. We won the 3 games against sides that missed the 8, were blown away in one quarter against the top 4 side and were unlucky against the top 6 side at their home ground with a side that was well below our best 22. In fact all year we haven't had our best 22 available. In the next few weeks we should get that 22 up and going and will only become better than what we have been playing.

 

[Mr T]

I think we are on the right track. Best coach we have had for a long time and a young list that are already scaring the more developed teams. No need to panic people.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

We've lost 2 games in a row to Collingwood and Freo at Subiaco so naturally:






Seriously though we are 6th on the ladder with 3 wins and 2 losses. We are a game clear of Carlton, Adelaide, 2 games clear of West Coast and North and ahead of Freo and Collingwood on percentage. For once our main competition has to make up ground on us.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

The problem with our side is we have to many with some kind of flawed skill by foot/hand or other.
Rance-Footskill/decision making
Morris-Footskill
King-Footskill
Jackson-Footskill/decision making
Mcguane-As above
Nahas-One sided/decision making

I mean seriously how do you expect us to be a top 4 side let alone a top 8 side with so many "flawed" types,It's like it's in our DNA to have these types since the 80's.

 

[PUNTROADHAMMER]

If we were 0/5 or 1/4 the question would be legitimate.
Although it wouldve been fantastic, we were never going to finish 22-0 @ 160%.
We're travelling fine in my opinion - why? you may ask, because I'm realisitic.

 

[bigstyletiger]

Great post by Tigerland. Think you've done a good job of summing up where we are at. Completely agree that we need some x factor. Along with natural improvement from the list I'd be looking for a Cyril Rioli type small forward with our first pick in the upcoming draft. Hard to come by but we are desperate for a small that can turn a game. Hoping Elton and Griff and potentially Astbury really step up and fill key spots.

 

[CeltDave]

I really believe we are on the right track.

Not trying to say we are going to end up playing multiple finals series or win a flag/s in the manner that Geelong has in recent years. They are a great team, but I thought I would look a little bit at the Geelong journey in the table below, given that Mark Thompson was close to being sacked in 2005 (think it was that year) and they hadn't really played finals in the decade before 2007 .

IIRC correctly, Geelong went back to the drawing board and went more the kids option, with Mark Thompson coaching and developing the players as a group (similar to what Dimma has been doing over the last 3 years). There were many who were calling for his head at Geelong but the club stuck by him and the kids all started to come through at a similar time and started to play great football together and went on to form a great footballing dynasty.

It maybe drawaing a long bow with the stats below, but I think Geelongs 2005 & 2006 look a lot like our 2011 & 2012, albeit we are coming from a longer way back in terms of list quality after Wallace and are probably another reasonable season away from starting to really win a lot of games of football.

I would love to see a lot more green on the Richmond table in 2013 and beyond. We have been starved of success for a long period of time, but I think we all need to have a little more patience and stop calling for the head of Dimma and just maybe (& hopefully) he follows the same path as Thommo and becomes a premiership coach with the club & all supporters 100% behind him.

 

[Riskingheadandshin]

We've lost 2 games in a row to Collingwood and Freo at Subiaco so naturally:







Seriously though we are 6th on the ladder with 3 wins and 2 losses. We are a game clear of Carlton, Adelaide, 2 games clear of West Coast and North and ahead of Freo and Collingwood on percentage. For once our main competition has to make up ground on us.

Yep, 3-2 in the 8 and lost to regular finalist Pies and lost by 1 point to Freo in Perth on a 6 day break.

Most (maybe all) would have taken 3-2 at the start of the year.

There were some disappointing couple of quarters in both losses, but this negative dissection of our players/coach/gameplan is shameful.
Hardwick has turned the list over in an era of compromised drafts and people expect us to have 8 All Australians and be winning every game?

Get real. Are you supporters or Internet snipers, like a faceless Robert Walls?

 

[The full package]

We are still on the right path, right coach, right players (look at our latest Vlastiun, another gun in the making) and off field looks about right as well. I love Dimma and his level headed coaching. We got some good tackling pressure up last game, something we have lacked in the first 4 games. I think we won the tackle count against freo which isnt easy, vital signs look good, don't lose hope, we are still sailing north with a qtr full sail. It's easy to lose your shit being a tiger sup so keep the faith like we have in the last few years, we will reach 60,000 this year which is a great effort, lets not forget where we have come from.

It is already turning into a us against them situation so be ready for it, they will try and implode our club any way possible as we get closer to our goal. We have done it the hard way rebuilding with franchise clubs coming in and taking our picks. I still take my hat off to all of us for all the shit we have endured over the years and yet, we still stand fighting the fight not bowing out making piss weak excuses or enhancing players to get a edge. We are Richmond, the roar is back!!! Stick together tiger army our time is coming.

 

[XYZ123]

Overall, 3-2 (excruciatingly close to 4-1) and in the 8 at round fives end with % over 100. I'd have taken that at the start of the year.

Good:
- midfield dominance at times
- backline continues to gel
- not jack centric anymore with McG and Vickery also contributing
- general skill overall good
- minimal injuries and suspensions
- still have been in the game in our losses
- teams battling for lower half of the 8 have had slower starts than us to the season

Bad:
- forward line entry
- goal kicking accuracy
- defensive running
- still periods of brain fades
- form of some of the bigger names when the going gets tough
- tackling pressure
- tough umpiring calls against us

Next 5:
- Geelong (H)
- Port (A)
- Melbourne (H)
- Essendon (H)
- West Coast (A)

Conclusion: We really need to win, at very worst 2 games out of our next block of 5. We should beat the Demons, we play Port pretty well in AAMI, match up ok against the Cats while we seem to be splitting a win and a loss with the Bombers most seasons. Our form out west also showed we don't fear Subiaco so I wouldn't be writing us off against the Eagles either.

Being at the very least 5-5 coming into the bye, we are still in a good position to make the 8 with very winnable games against GWS (A), Brisbane (H), Gold Coast (yes i know ) and a Tex Walkerless Adelaide (H) as well as playing the Saints and Bulldogs again.

As mentioned earlier, we need to also win at least half of our 8 point games when we face teams like the Blues, Freo, North and Adelaide to make sure we stay ahead of the teams vying for the bottom half of the 8.

All in all, definitely not all doom and gloom.