Analysis Where to from here?

[JohnZ]

Wait to see what happens next week but potentially 2012-2021 Geelong could go down as one of the biggest underachievers with the sheer number of wasted opportunities after top ladder positions over such an extended period of time.

Even if we won the flag (unlikely now) it's still a massive underachievement.

 

[Strange Cat]

Even if we won the flag (unlikely now) it's still a massive underachievement.

Not that it really matters much but I would 100% be certain that nearly every other AFL club would laugh at Geelong “sustained success” over this period where they have achieved ****ing nothing

Shows that finishing top 4 means absolutely nothing

 

[STPer18]

Even if we won the flag (unlikely now) it's still a massive underachievement.

Bulldogs of 08-10 with three prelims squandered and the Saints of 09-10 with their two GF losses are the two 'almost' teams that are constantly referred to, but our near decade long finals flop is in another universe unfortunately.

 

[Strange Cat]

Bulldogs of 08-10 with three prelims squandered and the Saints of 09-10 with their two GF losses are the two 'almost' teams that are constantly referred to, but our near decade long finals flop is in another universe unfortunately.

Barring 07-11 it’s the Geelong way sadly

 

[TheYid]

1. We will lose next week, most likely. The wheels fell off around Rd 20 or so. Have Mad Monday and move on.

2. Don't sign or sack Scott until the very end of his contract, at the very end of 2022. Let 2022 be a year of reckoning, because at the end of that season, we lose a lot of players- our serious rebuild can start then. It looks like they had a two-year plan to have a crack at a flag, so maybe we stay with that. Or maybe not.

3. Next year, after Hendo has been let go, play Kreuger. Play Holmes, Brownless, Okunbor, maybe Francis, Rato, SDK, and if there is a God, start playing Neale. Get rid of dead weight like Chook, Narkle, Fort. Re-sign Lang. He's only 24, and he's been ok.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You may find that the more level-headed among us fully acknowledge this, and it is THIS as the driver for our outcry because to think that each season this level of effort and work continually fails at the peak of the season, that being the finals.

Having finally made the GF last season, to be in a position to win it only to squander it...and then somehow not have that as a driving force to a fierce finals campaign this year. e.g. each of the last three flags were triggered by major failings and shortcomings the previous season.
Doesn't seem to have occurred this year. We played our final 3 games at home, the so called fortress (that I have never bought into remember the days when Fitzroy had walloped us there despite being in poor form), and the results showed what was to come.

Yes losses in the backline are huge, but all clubs limp into the finals missing players they'd prefer to have.

this sort of logic is again quite entitled and undermines the hard work that people like scott administration and the coaching panel puts into getting us that far and into that position. To claim geelong as a whole is failing and underperforming and being poorly coached is devaluing the excellent coaching and direction it takes to get us into those positions. I can guarantee you that hardly any coaches if actually any at all, would have the skills and talent to continuously have a side face up for a top four finish each and every season for an entire decade while rebuilding a team. you talk like its something anyone could do and can be dismissed and even argued down to "failure" which is ridiculous.

Already the season as a holistic picture is a tick getting to this point.

the fact is, nobody in the history of AFL football who is an educated, insider position regarding football such as that of working inside the four walls, has ever held the point of view that finishing top four and competing for premierships for a sustained period is a failure of a coach and needs to be sacked. What does this tell you about a point of view like that considering its never been thought of by those with the knowledge?

its simply an outside sulky fan perspective who dont have much of a clue about what goes on during a day to day basis to get us from A to B each year.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

See my post above, the effort and work is acknowledged. You're making excuses for them continually failing come finals time and it not being addressed. Again, the objective evidence and statistics are there to observe and analyse.

I'd happily be proven wrong and see them raise the cup....but objectively, it's difficult to see how that can manifest this season.

and once again, to sit here and claim " failure" because we don't perform as the best team in the AFL during a period which is only exclusively held at the pointy end of the season for the sides who are the best in the AFL, and the majority of our losses against top four contenders, is ridiculous to label as an entire season "failure". finals football itself to be there and abouts and making prelims and grand finals is itself again an achievement and alot of work went into getting there.

go whinge to a carlton supporter and tell them about your issues of failure, and you probably get laughed at.

 

[Strange Cat]

this sort of logic is again quite entitled and undermines the hard work that people like scott administration and the coaching panel puts into getting us that far and into that position. To claim geelong as a whole is failing and underperforming and being poorly coached is devaluing the excellent coaching and direction it takes to get us into those positions. I can guarantee you that hardly any coaches if actually any at all, would have the skills and talent to continuously have a side face up for a top four finish each and every season for an entire decade while rebuilding a team. you talk like its something anyone could do and can be dismissed and even argued down to "failure" which is ridiculous.

Already the season as a holistic picture is a tick getting to this point.

the fact is, nobody in the history of AFL football who is an educated, insider position regarding football such as that of working inside the four walls, has ever held the point of view that finishing top four and competing for premierships for a sustained period is a failure of a coach and needs to be sacked. What does this tell you about a point of view like that considering its never been thought of by those with the knowledge?

its simply an outside sulky fan perspective who dont have much of a clue about what goes on during a day to day basis to get us from A to B each year.

Sulky aye? Better to acknowledge the underperforming final results over the last 10 years than to be a bootlicker

 

[Strange Cat]

and once again, to sit here and claim " failure" because we don't perform as the best team in the AFL during a period which is only exclusively held at the pointy end of the season for the sides who are the best in the AFL, and the majority of our losses against top four contenders, is ridiculous to label as an entire season "failure". finals football itself to be there and abouts and making prelims and grand finals is itself again an achievement and alot of work went into getting there.

go whinge to a carlton supporter and tell them about your issues of failure, and you probably get laughed at.

Medocricity is celebrated by the likes of you as a supporter…give those 8-9 finals appearances to any other side and there would an extra flag or two in their cabinets

This list/club doesn’t even turn up with the hunger or drive in the finals , even Scott admitted they lost the GF because they were trying to defend their lead instead of continuing to attack…sounds familiar doesn’t it

 

[Daitro]

this once again sums of over the last 15 seasons or so the arrogance and entitlement of supporters regarding geelong and probably a point why a lot of fans just don’t like geelong supporters, they are sulky and entitled people a lot of them.

no geelong is not “ par for course” missing the finals once in 14 seasons of football while churning over an entire list including prelim finals and a grand final appearance, what an entirely arrogant entitled thing to say. We are not the Harlem globetrotters who are expected to just rock up and always be at the top end.

the sustained success we have had at the top of the ladder takes real hard work and exceptional people to make happen every season fronting up. We are not the only ones who trade for players, heaps of clubs do it each season

calrton just went out and got Zac Williams and adams saad… how did that go for them with a crap coach??

continually finishing at the top end of the table takes a lot of hard work dedication and commitment each year, ask anyone who works in the industry with knowledge and they will tell you the same story.

I'm talking about 2021 mate. Not the moves we have made in the past. The moves we made for this year and the results that are needed for them to be justified. Complete swing and a miss bringing up the past 14 years. I never said I have expected top four or grand finals every year. I'm talking now.

Bringing in players like Higgins, J Steven and Smith was purely for winning the premiership now (this year) whilst Danger/ Selwood and Hawk are still around. Not being also-rans. Trading away multiple first round picks for Cameron compounds this. As does not blooding many kids this year. We are playing for now. I don't even think it was a bad move, it is totally justifiable and I back the coach and recruitment for making the play, we aren't going to have players like Danger and Hawk again so we may as well have tried it. BUT if you put all your eggs in the NOW basket you actually have to perform NOW and last night they didn't and they capitulated in a way that they have capitulated in the past, which is not a good sign. It's not over, but they have made it much harder for themselves to even reach a pass mark for a season where you go all in.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Medocricity is celebrated by the likes of you as a supporter…give those 8-9 finals appearances to any other side and there would an extra flag or two in their cabinets

This list/club doesn’t even turn up with the hunger or drive in the finals , even Scott admitted they lost the GF because they were trying to defend their lead instead of continuing to attack…sounds familiar doesn’t it

well go ahead then, please give me a running list of these coaches who have sustained success over a 15 year period sitting as a top four side and we will compare. i keep hearing how easy and whatever it is, so am keen to hear about these sides who went on to win 4-5 premierships spread out across a decade or so.

surely all these under fire coaches would have just done such an easy thing and gone and pressed that magic trade button such as teague ratten.. oh wait they did "trade"... funny how the magic trade button still left them shit?? thats all i hear on here, but it seems to be apparently different for every other team and the logic doesnt apply.

anyway, keen to hear all these other sides since its so easy to do so we can compare

 

[Strange Cat]

well go ahead then, please give me a running list of these coaches who have sustained success over a 15 year period sitting as a top four side and we will compare. i keep hearing how easy and whatever it is, so am keen to hear about these sides who went on to win 4-5 premierships spread out across a decade or so.

surely all these under fire coaches would have just done such an easy thing and gone and pressed that magic trade button such as teague ratten.. oh wait they did "trade"... funny how the magic trade button still left them sh*t?? thats all i hear on here, but it seems to be apparently different for every other team and the logic doesnt apply.

anyway, keen to hear all these other sides since its so easy to do so we can compare

You’re in denial , all the power to you if you think there’s nothing wrong and that we are not underachieving.

I hope you’re on here celebrating the straight sets exit next week seeing that you don’t think there’s nothing wrong ect

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You’re in denial , all the power to you if you think there’s nothing wrong and that we are not underachieving.

I hope you’re on here celebrating the straight sets exit next week seeing that you don’t think there’s nothing wrong ect

im asking a simple question based off your logic that hits a bit of a brick wall. if you want to claim that consistently finishing top four 14/15 years and for the entirety of a rebuild and phasing out of a premiership team is nothing special and no achievement at all, well then show some evidence as to how this is apparently "easy". where are all these examples across the AFL of similar sustained success to prove how easy it is? why havent coaches like teague bolton ratten worsford dew the list goes on, gone out and pressed the magic button to do the easy top four trick?

if your going to claim its easy and not an achievement, you need to back it up with some other AFL examples how simple it is.

clubs spend sometimes 20 years or so sitting outside the top 8,. let alone the top 4 and go through sacking after sacking of coaches with nothing but elite top end draft picks at their disposals, and barely scrape the surface of the finals let alone top four.

 

[xtatik222k]

For now, play the year out and try this one last hurrah at a flag.

If we don't win this one, we wont be winning one for a long time. We need to start cutting the fat off the side and planning a new generation of Cats. Seniors can only stick around if they bring value to the youth of the team. Otherwise, piss them off and use the collateral to get back some of the draft-currency we've lost in recent times.

I know the club would never do it, but I'd be trading Blicavs out. Teams would want him, and we could get some serious picks for him. The guy is never going to tear the house down when it matters. Same with Rohan. I'd send him out too. He's rubbished enough finals now. We don't need to see any more attempts. If you can't stand up under pressure, you can go and play for the Gold Coast.

Dahlhaus can go also. Thanks for your "service."

Hendo - get out. Wouldn't even worry if it cost us money. Either way, we come out on top. Personally I found his game last night insulting.

New policy - no more than 6-7 of the gameday side over 30, at least for a number of years.

The new number-one metrics by which players are judged and inclusions are mediated: EFFORT AND EXECUTION.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I'm talking about 2021 mate. Not the moves we have made in the past. The moves we made for this year and the results that are needed for them to be justified. Complete swing and a miss bringing up the past 14 years. I never said I have expected top four or grand finals every year. I'm talking now.

Bringing in players like Higgins, J Steven and Smith was purely for winning the premiership now (this year) whilst Danger/ Selwood and Hawk are still around. Not being also-rans. Trading away multiple first round picks for Cameron compounds this. As does not blooding many kids this year. We are playing for now. I don't even think it was a bad move, it is totally justifiable and I back the coach and recruitment for making the play, we aren't going to have players like Danger and Hawk again so we may as well have tried it. BUT if you put all your eggs in the NOW basket you actually have to perform NOW and last night they didn't and they capitulated in a way that they have capitulated in the past, which is not a good sign. It's not over, but they have made it much harder for themselves to even reach a pass mark for a season where you go all in.

im actually not usually the one that directs it that path and am happy to discuss this year, it generally goes that direction due to posters going on about a selective relevant period of "2012-now", with 2011 scott just picking his nose while the players coached themselves.

do you actually think we have gone "all in"? i actually dont think we have.

if we had the philosophy over the years since scott took over and had to phase out our entire champion premiership side, and only focused on bringing in older players to top up, do you honestly see how rationally we could be a top four side for that entire decade without dropping?? id say if this was the case we would have fallen much sooner, probably 2012-13 would have seen a huge fall given the retirements to that point.

if you analyse our list, yes we have selwood dangerfield hawkins, but what seems to be a painful reality that i think has become a rose goggles sort of geelong thing, is selwood is no longer a champion elite player and has been just a good B+ player for many years now. I don't really put him into the picture with those talks.

so have we gone all out because we have hawkins and dangerfield?? id say 2 top players a club like carlton equally has sitting down the bottom of the ladder, should they go all out because they have cripps and mckay?? still far from it.

as a whole, we have actually built alot of our talent, infact most of our talent from internal development or organic growth during this decade. players such as:

duncan, kolo, bews, blicavs, guthrie, menegola, stewart, atkins, oconnor, henry, parfitt, hawkins selwood. thats 14/22 i can think of which are internal growth and development as opposed to top ups over the decade.

we now have the likes of holmes evans dekoning coming thru in the reserves.

i don't think we have ever fully gone all in when you look at the make up of our side, but have had a balanced approach that brings together trading, drafting and free agency to try and have a strong competitive side.

 

[Cataholic]

For now, play the year out and try this one last hurrah at a flag.

If we don't win this one, we wont be winning one for a long time. We need to start cutting the fat off the side and planning a new generation of Cats. Seniors can only stick around if they bring value to the youth of the team. Otherwise, piss them off and use the collateral to get back some of the draft-currency we've lost in recent times.

I know the club would never do it, but I'd be trading Blicavs out. Teams would want him, and we could get some serious picks for him. The guy is never going to tear the house down when it matters. Same with Rohan. I'd send him out too. He's rubbished enough finals now. We don't need to see any more attempts. If you can't stand up under pressure, you can go and play for the Gold Coast.

Dahlhaus can go also. Thanks for your "service."

Hendo - get out. Wouldn't even worry if it cost us money. Either way, we come out on top. Personally I found his game last night insulting.

New policy - no more than 6-7 of the gameday side over 30, at least for a number of years.

The new number-one metrics by which players are judged and inclusions are mediated: EFFORT AND EXECUTION.

And get rid of that abysmal gameplan.

Pass it around with sloppy handballs, chip kick it, hesitate, kick it sideways, hesitate, kick it backwards, hesitate, then close the eyes and bomb it forward has done nothing in finals for years.....and it never will.

 

[allrighty]

You won’t need to worry about making the GF mate. We will be eliminated next week.

I'm half expecting we will win next week, win the next then fall to pieces on the big stage.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

I'm half expecting we will win next week, win the next then fall to pieces on the big stage.

I think we look tired and needed the bye.

 

[Turbocat]

Not that it really matters much but I would 100% be certain that nearly every other AFL club would laugh at Geelong “sustained success” over this period where they have achieved ******* nothing

Shows that finishing top 4 means absolutely nothing

There must be cognitive dissonance within the club about this. In comparison to who? Against what metric. I get the feeling that that the club refuses to be ruled by the metric several other clubs have benchmarked. A number of flags in the next few years. We have admin types that would say we have been supporting a club that has shown sustained success.

It like we have been happy to be a third or fourth tier cola maker.. Royal Crown cola or Dr Pepper etc ...as long as we made a profit and stayed in business... meanwhile never really become a serious threat for Coke or Pepsi.

Now other clubs like Carlton may wish for what we have been like. I do not have to wonder if most supporters would be wishing to be geelong supporters atm. They do not think in terms of bottom lines and rainbow shoelaces when they think about successful clubs.

What all have to ask oneself. Would we be prepared to do what North and Collingwood have done. Its been decades since we have been prepared to move on mature good players to play kids. The Arnott type. Its been even longer since we have been a percentage booster opponent, (70's?). I dont know what the answer is ..but "competitive" sides that are anything but first week of the finals are nothing but the type of self abuse that boys are warned about that will cause them to go blind. Its spending the year building up to a totally predictable flagellating failure.

 

[Daitro]

im actually not usually the one that directs it that path and am happy to discuss this year, it generally goes that direction due to posters going on about a selective relevant period of "2012-now", with 2011 scott just picking his nose while the players coached themselves.

do you actually think we have gone "all in"? i actually dont think we have.

if we had the philosophy over the years since scott took over and had to phase out our entire champion premiership side, and only focused on bringing in older players to top up, do you honestly see how rationally we could be a top four side for that entire decade without dropping?? id say if this was the case we would have fallen much sooner, probably 2012-13 would have seen a huge fall given the retirements to that point.

if you analyse our list, yes we have selwood dangerfield hawkins, but what seems to be a painful reality that i think has become a rose goggles sort of geelong thing, is selwood is no longer a champion elite player and has been just a good B+ player for many years now. I don't really put him into the picture with those talks.

so have we gone all out because we have hawkins and dangerfield?? id say 2 top players a club like carlton equally has sitting down the bottom of the ladder, should they go all out because they have cripps and mckay?? still far from it.

as a whole, we have actually built alot of our talent, infact most of our talent from internal development or organic growth during this decade. players such as:

duncan, kolo, bews, blicavs, guthrie, menegola, stewart, atkins, oconnor, henry, parfitt, hawkins selwood. thats 14/22 i can think of which are internal growth and development as opposed to top ups over the decade.

we now have the likes of holmes evans dekoning coming thru in the reserves.

i don't think we have ever fully gone all in when you look at the make up of our side, but have had a balanced approach that brings together trading, drafting and free agency to try and have a strong competitive side.

I think again, you are using the past ten years and our general philosophy and ability to find players and pluck gems, to cloud what I'm actually talking about. We have heavily tilted towards the now in the last two years. Whether we have gone all in because we have Danger and Hawk or whether we have gone all in because we have the 14 players you list is irrelevant. Half of them are old enough to be heading out the door at the same time. You disgree with us going all in? Fine. I don't think the football world agrees with you. You don't bring in Smith and Higgins the year after you traded in Stevens, whilst simultaneuously trading two first rounders for Cameron and then basically not playing any kids for a year, if you aren't going all in. This is the most all-in-est of all all-ins.

Im under no illusions to Selwood being an above average player these days. His kicking has been an issue for awhile and he is a defensive liability, but clearly the club has ambitions to try and win a premiership with him as captain, which is why I included him with Danger and Hawk.

Holmes is the only player we looked even remotely interested in playing from the reserves this year, the rest of them are complete unknowns because we haven't played them for any sustained period.

 

[Cataholic]

It's great being in the Top 8 each year....it's certainly better than being Bottom 8.

But what grinds my gears, and that of many others I suspect, is not necessarily the fact that we lose finals, but the manner with which we lose them.

Turning up mentally unprepared to virtually every final and playing listless, insipid footy just does your head in.

You watch other teams attack the ball with hunger, desire, intensity.....whilst we seem borderline disinterested, and default to panic because our opponents want the ball more than we do.

 

[CatAttack84]

go whinge to a carlton supporter and tell them about your issues of failure, and you probably get laughed at.

You speak as if you're an insider, and maybe you are, but I hope not as this is pure delusion. Nothing in life worth anything is easy.

The performance of a sporting club, like any business large or small, is out to achieve some form of goal(s). They do not compare their challenges with those of others (your Carlton example). They have failed year after year to achieve this.

As a supporter and member I do not take for granted so many finals appearances, and this is precisely my point...the club from the players, coaches, and those running the place clearly do, considering our very poor record particularly these last couple years.

It's quite simple. You either admit there is a problem and work to fix it, or you live in denial or delusion and continue as is. The latter is what the club has been doing, this is factually and objectively obvious to all who follow the game. Enjoy the finals, I really do hope the Cats prove I and SO many other supporters wrong...time will tell.

 

[Down at K Park]

and once again, to sit here and claim " failure" because we don't perform as the best team in the AFL during a period which is only exclusively held at the pointy end of the season for the sides who are the best in the AFL, and the majority of our losses against top four contenders, is ridiculous to label as an entire season "failure". finals football itself to be there and abouts and making prelims and grand finals is itself again an achievement and alot of work went into getting there.

go whinge to a carlton supporter and tell them about your issues of failure, and you probably get laughed at.

Let’s all celebrate finishing top 4, cause who cares if you don’t win the flag right? I mean every team plays to hold that top 4 cup every year don’t they?

You couldn’t be more of a club arse kisser if you tried. It’s got nothing to do with entitlement, it’s about taking your chances. And we haven’t for a decade.

The teams who can’t make finals still win as many grand finals as we do.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You speak as if you're an insider, and maybe you are, but I hope not as this is pure delusion. Nothing in life worth anything is easy.

The performance of a sporting club, like any business large or small, is out to achieve some form of goal(s). They do not compare their challenges with those of others (your Carlton example). They have failed year after year to achieve this.

As a supporter and member I do not take for granted so many finals appearances, and this is precisely my point...the club from the players, coaches, and those running the place clearly do, considering our very poor record particularly these last couple years.

It's quite simple. You either admit there is a problem and work to fix it, or you live in denial or delusion and continue as is. The latter is what the club has been doing, this is factually and objectively obvious to all who follow the game. Enjoy the finals, I really do hope the Cats prove I and SO many other supporters wrong...time will tell.

I am reflecting the views and opinions the insiders have given on many occasions. Do you see any top four finishing clubs having outraged administration and coaching pannels that spit the dummy and come out and declare failures everywhere and attack their coaches? just exercising common sense.

living in denial about our poor finals performances over in particular the last couple of years?? surely your taking the piss. we were leading at half time of a grand final 12 months ago and fell short against a dynasty triple premiership team. we also had two huge beltings of oppositions the prior weeks before the grand final.

and yes you do take it for granted, you continually talk like we should just be there and winning the flag is what defines either a complete failure or a success with nothing in between.

I have quite a balanced approach with my overall perspective, i think there are areas we need to work on and improve, but to get to the point we get to each season takes ALOT of excellence and quality work behind the scenes to take place that rationally does not equate to failure. the only way you can call it a failure is if you think getting there wasnt a big deal in the first place and just an expectation.

we do an incredible amount of quality work and do the majority of things right as a club on and off the field.

absolutely we need to improve and work on areas of our game and develop, does that mean we are failing? far from it.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Let’s all celebrate finishing top 4, cause who cares if you don’t win the flag right? I mean every team plays to hold that top 4 cup every year don’t they?

You couldn’t be more of a club arse kisser if you tried. It’s got nothing to do with entitlement, it’s about taking your chances. And we haven’t for a decade.

The teams who can’t make finals still win as many grand finals as we do.

and we almost did last season, we got very close to a flag. do you feel the club should have folded shop this year after leading at half time of last years grand final?? i would like to hear what we should have done differently this off season according to you after making a grand final.

look, some people who are winners and optimistic people have the balls and courage to keep pushing hard and trying to achieve when they are close, others are pessimistic cowards who want to fold shop and run off.

its a mindset really and defines character