Which rivalry would you rate as the biggest in the AFL?

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Nah it hasn't m8...not sure why u, a bomber supporter would think they know or understand...if got a feeling its jealousy that u guys hav been irrelevant for over a decade now

So which bay poster are you a benny of?

 

[Blind Turn]

Everyone over the age of 30 knows, if you have ever tapped in to the pure essence of footy, that Collingwood v Carlton is the greatest rivalry. The problem is that a whole generation has grown up seeing Carlton as a basket case that had a brief sense of hope when Judd arrived. The problem is, how long can a lack of memorable clashes continue before the rivalry is irreparably damaged? You rarely even see the two clubs want bury the other’s metaphorical face into the metaphorical turf on game day. If another generation slips by we might see the Bulldogs v Sydney surpass it.

 

[JayJ20]

Nah it hasn't m8...not sure why u, a bomber supporter would think they know or understand...if got a feeling its jealousy that u guys hav been irrelevant for over a decade now

Why would I be jealous. We have the most blockbusters in the league.

I like Geelong. Nothing against them at all. Don't like Hawthorn, but that's because of the rivalry.

Look I get some things happened in the late 80s/early 90s, but hardly anyone would say Hawthorn and Geelong were big rivals before 2008. It's only after 2008 that Hawthorn and Geelong supporters started making it look like the rivalry carried on from 89. In reality, it's really only been a little over 10 years.

 

[fallout11]

Why would I be jealous. We have the most blockbusters in the league.

I like Geelong. Nothing against them at all. Don't like Hawthorn, but that's because of the rivalry.

Look I get some things happened in the late 80s/early 90s, but hardly anyone would say Hawthorn and Geelong were big rivals before 2008. It's only after 2008 that Hawthorn and Geelong supporters started making it look like the rivalry carried on from 89. In reality, it's really only been a little over 10 years.

Fair enough m8, we share the hatred of the hawks! but I'm assuring you with 100% certainty that it goes deeper than post 08.

It is hard for a gen y like myself to "get" any rivalry pre 90s, nothing against them I just haven't grown up with it...the line I the sand game was good but!

 

[doppleganger]

The Carlton Collingwood rivalry reached its zenith in the 70s and 80s. Reading the history it appears its importance in the previous 7 decades of state league football has been hugely overstated. If you went by doppleganger's flawed and narrow definition of what makes a rivalry you could make just as big a case for Collingwood's major rivals being Richmond, Essendon, Geelong, Melbourne, South Melbourne and Fitzroy being Collingwoods main rivals pre Gough Whitlam.

In the AFL era the rivalry has significantly waned and even feels forced with most of the media still VFL era hacks who pine for the good old days. Maguire rams it down our necks at every opportunity and the AFL/ch 7 over promote the games in a vein hope it becomes what it when colour TV was the big new thing.

I agree with that.

Collingwood’s first rival was Fitzroy, the closest neighbour...Smith Street boarder.

Fitzroy, Collingwood and Carlton were the strong teams in the first 20 odd years of the competition, Fitzroy first to six flags and Pies n Blues next best with 5 come 1920. Pies biggest rival early was Fitzroy, Carlton second.

Then the Tigers entered, another neighbour for Collingwood. A lauded Pies captain wanted to transfer to Tigers which upset plenty of Pies, and then the 20s produced four Richmond v Collingwood GFs...and unsurprisingly a heated rivalry developed.

Meanwhile, Fitzroy started battling Collingwood moved on to another new rival...Melbourne. Pies and Dees played in 5 GFs in 50s & 60s, and after Melbourne won in 1964 it was Pies on 13 flags and Dees on 12 flags as the best two teams going!

Talk to older generation, and Pies v Dees was the RIVALRY in the 50s and 60s.

But then the Dees collapsed, and like Fitzroy the rivalry waned as Collingwood was playing finals against other challengers to our crown as most successful team.

70s and early 80s then saw Pies play many big finals against Carlton and Richmond again...and the 1981 GF when Carlton beat the Pies saw Carlton equal us with 13 flags...before going past us the next year.

So yeah for the generation that grew up through the 70s and 80s it was Collingwood and Carlton that was the big RIVALRY, with Richmond not far behind.

And despite being ordinary in the 70s, by the late 60s Essendon had also chalked up their 12th flag and had a fierce rivalry going with Carlton.

The whole concept of big4 was because those clubs had all played 20+ GFs by the 1980, they were the teams regularly playing each other in big finals.

But since it transitioned to AFL, all have been shite...hence rivalries falling away and as you say feel manufactured.

But that is the point, really big rivalries that appeal to entire leagues, are based on the best teams clashing in finals consistently...if you have two teams who dominate a league their rivalry builds and builds.

But if certain teams fall away, so do rivalries.

 

[Danger Zone]

a- to even put sydney v gws in the same breath as the western derby and particularly the showdown is ludacris.

b- you are conveniently forgetting (in relation to pure geographic derbies)
England:
Arsenal v Tottenham (arsenal aint won a league for 15 years, spurs almost 60 years)
Millwall v West Ham Utd (neither has been anywhere near a trophy for a long long time barring west ham utd in 2006 fa cup, I would say it is the most volatile rivalry in english football)
Newcastle United v Sunderland (neither has been near a trophy for yonks, you will always get 48,000 plus to these match ups and broken hearts)
Sweden:
Hammarby v Djurgården (share a stadium, hammarby have won one title...ever...still get the biggest crowds in scandinavia and really judge their season on beating the other two stockholm clubs)
Aussie Rules (historically):
East Freo v South Freo
West Perth v East Perth
Greece:
PAOK v Aris (not many titles won between these two)

i could go on and on.....

but ipso facto the average Showdown these days evokes more despisement for the Opposition than the a hawks v cats game.
A cats fans will just be gutted they lost the match, rather than the fact they lost it to the Hawks.
Where as a Crows fans will be gutted two fold that they lost to Port rather than when they lose to any of the other clubs.

I guess it depends how you view what "biggest rivalry" entails, is it about the intensity of the rivalry? or what often can be at stake?..... which is really just a by-product of scheduling or luck of draw etc.

If its intensity I stand by the showdown.

I actually used to live in Stockholm and supported Hammarby, that was a pretty intense rivalry.

It still lacked the genuine spite of a Showdown though. Even the players genuinely dislike each other, hence how few players have been traded to the cross-town rivals. I’ve spoken to a lot of ex-players and it’s not just the fans that hate each other.

As someone mentioned, there is a real reluctance to tell a new acquaintance who you support, because it can actually stall the chance to become friends. The atmosphere in an office with an even split of fans is tense for a week leading to the game and then there is weeks of gloating and sore feelings afterwards.

My partners father moved to SA from the ACT and chose Port on a whim. He regularly states he wished he’d picked the Crows because it would be easier for us, but he’s too proud to swap now and I can respect that.

 

[Papa G]

I agree with that.

Collingwood’s first rival was Fitzroy, the closest neighbour...Smith Street boarder.

Fitzroy, Collingwood and Carlton were the strong teams in the first 20 odd years of the competition, Fitzroy first to six flags and Pies n Blues next best with 5 come 1920. Pies biggest rival early was Fitzroy, Carlton second.

Then the Tigers entered, another neighbour for Collingwood. A lauded Pies captain wanted to transfer to Tigers which upset plenty of Pies, and then the 20s produced four Richmond v Collingwood GFs...and unsurprisingly a heated rivalry developed.

Meanwhile, Fitzroy started battling Collingwood moved on to another new rival...Melbourne. Pies and Dees played in 5 GFs in 50s & 60s, and after Melbourne won in 1964 it was Pies on 13 flags and Dees on 12 flags as the best two teams going!

Talk to older generation, and Pies v Dees was the RIVALRY in the 50s and 60s.

But then the Dees collapsed, and like Fitzroy the rivalry waned as Collingwood was playing finals against other challengers to our crown as most successful team.

70s and early 80s then saw Pies play many big finals against Carlton and Richmond again...and the 1981 GF when Carlton beat the Pies saw Carlton equal us with 13 flags...before going past us the next year.

So yeah for the generation that grew up through the 70s and 80s it was Collingwood and Carlton that was the big RIVALRY, with Richmond not far behind.

And despite being ordinary in the 70s, by the late 60s Essendon had also chalked up their 12th flag and had a fierce rivalry going with Carlton.

The whole concept of big4 was because those clubs had all played 20+ GFs by the 1980, they were the teams regularly playing each other in big finals.

But since it transitioned to AFL, all have been shite...hence rivalries falling away and as you say feel manufactured.

But that is the point, really big rivalries that appeal to entire leagues, are based on the best teams clashing in finals consistently...if you have two teams who dominate a league their rivalry builds and builds.

But if certain teams fall away, so do rivalries.

But surely you need to recognize there's more to a rivalry than just onfield? As chiwigi stated previously, the best rivalries also revolve around proximity, politics, history, religion, social status, ethnicity... whatever. Genuine passion. It's also why I think the Hawthorn Geelong rivalry wont endure beyond onfield compatability. Both supporter bases are pretty Whitebread.

 

[doppleganger]

But surely you need to recognize there's more to a rivalry than just onfield? As chiwigi stated previously, the best rivalries also revolve around proximity, politics, history, religion, social status, ethnicity... whatever. Genuine passion. It's also why I think the Hawthorn Geelong rivalry wont endure beyond onfield compatability. Both supporter bases are pretty Whitebread.

Majority of rivalries are due to proximity and familiarity, ie you end up playing certain teams more often. You want bragging rights over the neighbours.

That is what happens in all leagues everywhere.

Tyne-Weir, Second City, South Wales, Sheffield, even the Edinburgh derby could all talk about fierce rivalries.

But what elevates certain contests above others...the rivals constantly competing for titles.

So yeah, for Port and Adelaide fans...their rivalry is heated and will always be of interest to them, just like the South Wales derby...but neither clash rarely impacts the competition at the pointy end, so hasn’t really taken off for others apart from novelty value.

 

[kid_a]

I actually used to live in Stockholm and supported Hammarby

good man!

 

[themuldohyeh]

Geographic rivals are small fry

Freo v WC
Syd v GWS
Port v Adelaide

They are like your Manchester Derby Second city (Birmingham) Derby, West London derby (Chelsea v Fulham) in the premier league, normally meh for everyone apart from the people that live in the City.

Adelaide and Port have only ever played one final, a boring 10goal plus flogging.

The real big rivals come about from teams that are consistently challenging for titles

United v Liverpool
Yankees v RedSox
Lakers v Celtics
Giants v Dodgers
Madrid v Barcelona

When you get two dominant teams in a league being from same city that is where you get the really big rivalries

Old Firm - rangers v celtic
Superclasico - Boca v river

That is why in AFL you have

The big4 as they were consistently playing finals against each other.

Back in 50s-60s the biggest rivalry was Pies v Dees, but it has long died.

And modern equivalent would be Geel v Hawks who are regularly meeting in finals, have plenty of on and off-field incidents...they are the games that all fans take an interest in...not just teams from that city.

So for mine Geel v Hawks biggest AFL rivalry at present.

You really used Chelsea vs Fulham for an example of a London rivalry?

 

[B4Bear]

Carlton vs Wooden Spoon

 

[basashi]

If the AFL was run like a business then the two Showdowns each year would be on Friday nights.

 

[kid_a]

Carlton vs Wooden Spoon

nah, they seem get on very well

 

[doppleganger]

You really used Chelsea vs Fulham for an example of a London rivalry?

Yeah it is the entire point.

It is the biggest of the ‘West London’ rivalries as the other West London teams QPR, Brentford are normally in lower divisions. Without success it is a fart of a rivalry. As clubs never really been challenging for titles, or even in the same division.

There are dozens of heated proximity rivalries in English football, but the few that have elevated themselves are the ones between sides that have actually also had success on the pitch.

Without success you end up with Tyne-Weir, Edinburgh, Sheffield, South Wales , Hammers v Milwall rivalries that are intense for their own supporters but apart from interest in whether there was any crowd violence, they don’t have that full league interest.

 

[doppleganger]

If the AFL was run like a business then the two Showdowns each year would be on Friday nights.

The problem is the AFL IS run like a business...the major markets are Melbourne and Sydney.

They give the big Melbourne clubs and Sydney the most prime time exposure.

Which is bad for long term integrity but good for short term ratings and exec bonuses!

 

[bomberclifford]

And here is the layers I spoke of before. Adelaide supporters despise Port for the "treachery" of 1990. This "treachery" was the direct cause of the formation of the team they now love. It is an interesting paradox.

... and simultaneously claim the Port in the AFL is a different club.

 

[bomberclifford]

I agree! Carl v coll have been boring as for many years now, frankly that "rivalry" doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as gee v haw or Adel v port

Carlton vs anyone has been boring for many years.

 

[basashi]

The problem is the AFL IS run like a business...the major markets are Melbourne and Sydney.

They give the big Melbourne clubs and Sydney the most prime time exposure.

Which is bad for long term integrity but good for short term ratings and exec bonuses!

If I am going to watch a neutral game I look for a good one.

What sort of demented neutral would look at a fixture and say... hmmm, the showdowns are usually some of the best games of the year... but I won't watch it. If it was a dull game between 2 worse / uneven teams I don't support but are based in my city I would watch it...

 

[doppleganger]

If I am going to watch a neutral game I look for a good one.

What sort of demented neutral would look at a fixture and say... hmmm, the showdowns are usually some of the best games of the year... but I won't watch it. If it was a dull game between 2 worse / uneven teams I don't support but are based in my city I would watch it...

That is my exact point.

This year come R20 Adelaide’s season was basically done, so why is a neutral keen on watching the showdown?

It was just a dull game between two mediocre teams.

In 2017 the second showdown did have plenty riding on it, 1st v 5th, but it ended in a 90 point drubbing.

You have to back to early 2000s to find a few years when Port and Adelaide were both at the pointy end of the ladder at the same time!

Surely a neutral prefers to watch Geel v Hawks in R21, when if Geelong won they would potentially leap frog Hawks and take a spot in top4.

And it has been like that for a decade now, Hawks v Geel regularly involved in big H&A clashes that impact top end of the ladder, or are actually squaring off in big finals.

So apart from Adelaide fans, why are neutrals meant to be getting excited by showdowns which for the last 15 years has been a dull game between mediocre and unevenly matched teams?

 

[jackster83]

Carlton vs anyone has been boring for many years.

I dunno. I quite enjoy watching them lose.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

That is my exact point.

This year come R20 Adelaide’s season was basically done, so why is a neutral keen on watching the showdown?

It was just a dull game between two mediocre teams.

In 2017 the second showdown did have plenty riding on it, 1st v 5th, but it ended in a 90 point drubbing.

You have to back to early 2000s to find a few years when Port and Adelaide were both at the pointy end of the ladder at the same time!

Surely a neutral prefers to watch Geel v Hawks in R21, when if Geelong won they would potentially leap frog Hawks and take a spot in top4.

And it has been like that for a decade now, Hawks v Geel regularly involved in big H&A clashes that impact top end of the ladder, or are actually squaring off in big finals.

So apart from Adelaide fans, why are neutrals meant to be getting excited by showdowns which for the last 15 years has been a dull game between mediocre and unevenly matched teams?

If you think rivalry's are about neutrals, you've missed the point.

 

[Big Blood]

The McGuire Brain v Mouth battle is never over

AFL match review vs incredulity

Sam Newman vs women of the world

 

[Mitchell54]

I thought the Richmond v Carlton ‘rivalry’ was the work of the AFL trying to orchestrate something that’s not there.

 

[portly]

Majority of rivalries are due to proximity and familiarity, ie you end up playing certain teams more often. You want bragging rights over the neighbours.

That is what happens in all leagues everywhere.

Tyne-Weir, Second City, South Wales, Sheffield, even the Edinburgh derby could all talk about fierce rivalries.

But what elevates certain contests above others...the rivals constantly competing for titles.

So yeah, for Port and Adelaide fans...their rivalry is heated and will always be of interest to them, just like the South Wales derby...but neither clash rarely impacts the competition at the pointy end, so hasn’t really taken off for others apart from novelty value.

A very Vic-centric argument, seeming to forget that this is a national game.

Port-Norwood clashes were fearsome events, and certainly had an effect on finals.

Let's just agree to differ by excluding pre-AFL history.

The Port-Crows rivalry is the most intense now, and possibly has been for 20 years.

 

[doppleganger]

If you think rivalry's are about neutrals, you've missed the point.

My point is that some rivalries do elevate to actually have almost league wide interest, and they are when the competing clubs are successful.

It is why Port v Norwood was the SANFL rivalry.

But also why what once were fierce rivalries - Coll v Fitzroy, Coll v Melbourne - can fade into almost irrelevance if there is prolonged inequality between the teams.

Collingwood moved on from our initial neighboring rival with Fitzroy and then Melbourne when those teams stopped challenging. It has happened to Coll v Carl too.

Apart from the early 2000s, Port and Adelaide have never really been good at the same time. It culminated in one final in 2005, when Port were on the slide and Adelaide belted them by 80 points.

But since then, what big games have the two played in? Usually they are either both mediocre, or one is strong and the other battling.