Coaching Staff Who was treated worse, Matthew Knights vs Ben Rutten?

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White Dogg

White Dogg

Senior List
Nov 26, 2012
173
309
AFL Club
Essendon
Two outsider coaches who lets face it were treated poorly by the club. Even though their coaching records were average and nothing to write home about, the absolute circus on both occasions was completely unwarranted.

If it turns out we've sacked Rutten to appoint Hird like we sacked Knights to appoint Hird, then I'll spew up, but that's a topic for another thread.

The question this thread is asking is which coach was treated worse by the club? Lets face it we're about as far away from a flag now as we were this time in 2010 when we sacked Knights.
 
White Dogg said:
Two outsider coaches who lets face it were treated poorly by the club. Even though their coaching records were average and nothing to write home about, the absolute circus on both occasions was completely unwarranted.

If it turns out we've sacked Rutten to appoint Hird like we sacked Knights to appoint Hird, then I'll spew up, but that's a topic for another thread.

The question this thread is asking is which coach was treated worse by the club? Lets face it we're about as far away from a flag now as we were this time in 2010 when we sacked Knights.
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Flag? That's just fluff for the other 17 clubs to focus on. We are all about internal political maneuvering, factional intrigue and protecting the reputations and income of the hierarchy. Who gives a sh*t about flags...?!
 

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Knights:
Season before take over (2007): 10-12 (2184 For, 2394 Against)

2008: 8-14 (2130 For, 2608 Against)
2009: 10-1-12 (2150 For, 2293 Against) made finals
2010: 7-15 (1930 for, 2402 Against)

2011: 11-1-11 (2304 For, 2366 Against) made finals

Rutten:
Season before take over (2020): 6-1-10 (938, 1185)

2021: 11-12 (1989 For, 1875 Against) made finals
2022: 7-15 (1737 For, 2087 Against)

Has to be Rutten IMO. Especially when you consider taht even if you take 2020 into account for his head coaching record, due to Covid 2022 is the first 'normal' season he's had at the helm
 
Both handled badly.
The thing I will say is do not hire someone already within your system as they already have some baggage when things start to go wrong.
 
Social media back in 2010 was nothing like it is in 2022, and I have no doubt this makes the Knights circus look less bad compared to the Rutten circus. It's easy to forget Knights had knives out for him all year from people at the club who merely saw Knights as a seat warmer for the incumbent Hird.
 
I think Rutten was harsher done by.
Knights had well and truly lost the players whereas with Rutten I think its more like he never managed to implement the game style he wanted. That's a failing too but there's a possibility with another year maybe they would have got there. With Knights another year wouldn't have helped in my books.

Either way what's done is done.
 
Both were treated poorly. With Knights, we pissed on him to bring in a club legend (although not entirely his fault), that brought the club to its knees.

With Rutten, we've pissed on him to bring in a former club legend (although not entirely his fault) that brought the club to its knees...oh, wait!!!
 
Rutten by a fair way.

What I will say as some mitigation of Knights, is that he arguably had a tougher gig.

Being the immediate successor to Sheedy meant he was always going to be up against it in the eyes of many, and I think the fanbase was probably harder on Knights because in 2007, we hadn't been shit for that long compared to when Rutten took over; at that point I think more of the fanbase probably expected a very quick rise up the ladder, for no other reason than we were Essendon. By 2019-20 that had been eroded among many.

I also don't think, as much as I loved Velvet as a player, that Knights was dealt a great hand in having Lloyd as his captain for his first two seasons. He was in retrospect, a poor captain.

But Knights was also, I strongly suspect, a more caustic personality, more stubborn, and a worse people manager. And as much as we bemoan our defence in 2022, under Knights our defence was ****ing disgraceful.

I don't think we handled the Knights situation anywhere near perfectly, but I think ultimately removing him was still the right call, whether his successor was to be Hird or not.


Rutten - nothing that happened to Knights comes close to the death by thousand cuts we submitted him to this week. It was a bloody, drawn out public execution, and not an experience he deserved, whether you think he was the coach to take us forward or not; no one deserves to be terminated in the manner Ben was.
 
Ruttens treatment was terrible at the end but he did get a year handover and some good assistants to work with. Knights was always up against it taking over from Sheedy and (not being Bomba).

Both mission impossible really. As others have said we add the Essendon bullshit toll to all successful candidates and are yet to see many diamonds form from the pressure.
 
Thought this was going to be a who was better thread.

Rutten gets the chocolates here because he was given an initial contract and didn't get to see it out. Knights had a contract but probably shouldn't have, Peter Jackson trying to leave a legacy.

Aren't too many sacked coaches who've been treated wonderfully.
 

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Doss said:
Rutten by a fair way.

What I will say as some mitigation of Knights, is that he arguably had a tougher gig.

Being the immediate successor to Sheedy meant he was always going to be up against it in the eyes of many, and I think the fanbase was probably harder on Knights because in 2007, we hadn't been s**t for that long compared to when Rutten took over; at that point I think more of the fanbase probably expected a very quick rise up the ladder, for no other reason than we were Essendon. By 2019-20 that had been eroded among many.

I also don't think, as much as I loved Velvet as a player, that Knights was dealt a great hand in having Lloyd as his captain for his first two seasons. He was in retrospect, a poor captain.

But Knights was also, I strongly suspect, a more caustic personality, more stubborn, and a worse people manager. And as much as we bemoan our defence in 2022, under Knights our defence was ******* disgraceful.

I don't think we handled the Knights situation anywhere near perfectly, but I think ultimately removing him was still the right call, whether his successor was to be Hird or not.


Rutten - nothing that happened to Knights comes close to the death by thousand cuts we submitted him to this week. It was a bloody, drawn out public execution, and not an experience he deserved, whether you think he was the coach to take us forward or not; no one deserves to be terminated in the manner Ben was.
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Well said Doss.
 
Both treated poorly - but Rutten was booted without really given much of a go. Board instability during Ruttens coaching tenure (and still is) probably contributed to this, as did being starved of success for so long. Ben managed to win only 17 games out of 44 @ 38.6% so that didnt help him either
Matty Knights arguably had a better list yet had a lower win ratio than Rutten with only 36.8%. He was given a lot longer at the club though - effectively a whole season longer - probably due to the fact that there was a bit more board stability back then and we hadn't gone 20 years without winning a final...
 
owen87 said:
The other head coaches we're hoping to find might, as they know they'll also be treated poorly if things don't go to plan ASAP.
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Nope. There'll be a long list of hungry coaches ready to step in. Being an AFL coach at a club like Essendon is about as high a position you can get in the AFL.

If you need to coax someone or they have reservations for whatever reason then they immediately aren't the right person and shouldn't even be considered.

If a career coach doesn't understand the risk of being a coach then they probably shouldn't be one. If you aren't up for the challenge of transforming a club/list then you aren't the right person.
 
kelvin_sheedy said:
Nope. There'll be a long list of hungry coaches ready to step in. Being an AFL coach at a club like Essendon is about as high a position you can get in the AFL.

If you need to coax someone or they have reservations for whatever reason then they immediately aren't the right person and shouldn't even be considered.

If a career coach doesn't understand the risk of being a coach then they probably shouldn't be one. If you aren't up for the challenge of transforming a club/list then you aren't the right person.
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Poor take IMO.

Organisations that treat staff badly, get bad staff.
 
kelvin_sheedy said:
Nope. There'll be a long list of hungry coaches ready to step in. Being an AFL coach at a club like Essendon is about as high a position you can get in the AFL.

If you need to coax someone or they have reservations for whatever reason then they immediately aren't the right person and shouldn't even be considered.

If a career coach doesn't understand the risk of being a coach then they probably shouldn't be one. If you aren't up for the challenge of transforming a club/list then you aren't the right person.
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If anyone at all is up for the challenge of transforming this club they must have an ego the size of Texas.
 
Knights coaching record
2008, 8 wins - 14 losses, finished 12th
2009, 10 wins - 12 losses, finished 8th
2010 7 wins - 15 losses, finished 14th

Knights last year - 2010

Round 5, lost by 65 points
Round 12, lost by 71 points
Round 14, lost by 84 points
Round 19, lost by 76 points
Round 20, lost by 98 points

Only won two of the last ten matches.
 

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Coaching Staff Who was treated worse, Matthew Knights vs Ben Rutten?

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