Why are we losing the contested possession count?

[Sttew]

Guys, help me understand. I'm sure there is no easy answer or you'd think Scott would have addressed the problem.

Why is that we have lost the contested possession count every week, including against the likes of Melbourne? Is there a solution?

 

[Senatorguesty]

Personally I think hunger and drive.
Our senior players just are running as hard, going in as hard and trying as hard as they have in previous years.
I dont think they have that ruthlessness that made them such the great team they have been and when you lack that will to compete you see a massive drop-off.
I dont doubt they still have it in them to turn it around but I dont think they will.
Shame, but who can blame em?

 

[footscore]

I think a big part of the reason is because of the new players in the team at the moment.
The new players are trying to learn how to play with the veterans and vice versa, the team is trying to gel together and work as one but we aren't quite seeing it just yet and that means a break down in communication which in turn leads to hesitations or an error in judgement as a new player would expect the veteran to win the footy etc.

We saw how well the whole team was working by late August & September last year, everything was almost instinctive and they were communicating as one.
It's only natural for all these important stats be down when we have 6-8 new faces rotating through the best 22 nearly every 2nd week.

Scott is not silly...he understands what's happening but it's crucial the new players continue to play and learn as much as they can right now so that when the usual suspects (Wojcinski, Varcoe, Menzel, Stokes) begin to return, those new blokes can put their hand up for selection at finals time as injuries or suspension will most likely occur as is the case for every other team at that stage of the season.

 

[DanA]

I think a big part of the reason is because of the new players in the team at the moment.

It's this IMO. You look at the Grand Final last year and we beat up on Collingwood. Bartel, Ling, Selwood, Chapman, Corey & Kelly battered them and did the majority of the work inside. The same could be said for Ottens who was very hard at it for a ruckmen. Fast forward to now and we just don't have the size any more.

*Bartel/Kelly/Selwood vs Stringer/Smedts
Ling vs T-Hunt
Scarlett vs Gillies
Hunt vs Guthrie
Varcoe vs Motlop
West vs Ottens

*One seems to be missing each match

I'm quite impressed with the young players individually but combined I think it's having an effect. We were previously the heaviest and probably the strongest team in the AFL but we've lost that.

These new players have come in showing talent, skill and ability, it's a testament to our player development. However with 10+ guys on less than 50 games that's 10 guys that can't break a tackle, ride a bump or contest for the footy as strongly as there predecessors.

We're riding on a knife edge at the moment, we can compensate with a good team plan and highly skillful players but if we keep playing games without the bigger bodies on the field we'll start losing. And it's only going to be more prevalent in the finals.

When Varcoe, Scarlett, Bartel, Wojak perhaps even Simpson comeback hopefully things will improve a little but it's going to be a tough season.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

YOu need to understand that different players play different roles. We have all year been missing our quick outside players in Varcoe and Wojo. that coupled with the fact that Byrnes has not recaptured his best form. Because of that, former inside players are covering, playing outside. The "structure" is messed up. Add to that a late preparation to senior guys. Players like Corey, Enright, Chappy. They look 5 yards off the pace, which I am putting down to a late start. Finally, West is NOT a 1st ruckman. He isnt a big hulking Ottens/Bellchambers/Cox ruckman who will jump into you and hurt you. He isnt getting a lot of it round the ground either, in fact his stats are almost Blake-esque.

For all those writing us off. WAIT a 6 weeks. When we have Varcoe, Scarlett, Wojo, Dawson (will fix a lot of the problems having a 206 cm/110kg ruckman who then will free West up to play the relief role he played so well last year, which in turn lets Hawk play purely forward) Bartel etc get some continuity under their belt.

We will still win the flag. I said this all year last year and got laughed at. Its a marathon, NOT a sprint. This group havent gone back to back and that drives them.

Keep the faith!

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Yep, I agree with the general argument of this thread: young players yet to catch up.

Guthrie handpassing right across goal yeasterday. Cost us a goal. I'm sure a 21 year old Enright probably did that too.

Half our team is about as experienced as our young team was back in 2003-4.

 

[Senatorguesty]

YOu need to understand that different players play different roles. We have all year been missing our quick outside players in Varcoe and Wojo. that coupled with the fact that Byrnes has not recaptured his best form. Because of that, former inside players are covering, playing outside. The "structure" is messed up. Add to that a late preparation to senior guys. Players like Corey, Enright, Chappy. They look 5 yards off the pace, which I am putting down to a late start. Finally, West is NOT a 1st ruckman. He isnt a big hulking Ottens/Bellchambers/Cox ruckman who will jump into you and hurt you. He isnt getting a lot of it round the ground either, in fact his stats are almost Blake-esque.

For all those writing us off. WAIT a 6 weeks. When we have Varcoe, Scarlett, Wojo, Dawson (will fix a lot of the problems having a 206 cm/110kg ruckman who then will free West up to play the relief role he played so well last year, which in turn lets Hawk play purely forward) Bartel etc get some continuity under their belt.

We will still win the flag. I said this all year last year and got laughed at. Its a marathon, NOT a sprint. This group havent gone back to back and that drives them.

Keep the faith!

I know what your saying but the issue is when we DO get these guys back and playing decent footy we just wont have enough wins to get near top 4. Realistically you cant win the flag outside the top 4.

 

[DanA]

YOu need to understand that different players play different roles. We have all year been missing our quick outside players in Varcoe and Wojo. that coupled with the fact that Byrnes has not recaptured his best form. Because of that, former inside players are covering, playing outside. The "structure" is messed up. Add to that a late preparation to senior guys. Players like Corey, Enright, Chappy. They look 5 yards off the pace, which I am putting down to a late start. Finally, West is NOT a 1st ruckman. He isnt a big hulking Ottens/Bellchambers/Cox ruckman who will jump into you and hurt you. He isnt getting a lot of it round the ground either, in fact his stats are almost Blake-esque.

For all those writing us off. WAIT a 6 weeks. When we have Varcoe, Scarlett, Wojo, Dawson (will fix a lot of the problems having a 206 cm/110kg ruckman who then will free West up to play the relief role he played so well last year, which in turn lets Hawk play purely forward) Bartel etc get some continuity under their belt.

We will still win the flag. I said this all year last year and got laughed at. Its a marathon, NOT a sprint. This group havent gone back to back and that drives them.

Keep the faith!

I'm not writing the season off. I'm just saying it's tougher this year. It's not going to be so easy for us to finish top 4 this season and I think it will be that much tougher to manage the list. We need to strike a balance between finishing in a good position and coming in with fresh players.

Once we make the finals though the footy only gets harder. We can't afford to be a weak contested footy team which means we can't afford to be playing so many young inexperienced players. Last season we were weak in the season with clearances but stepped it up a notch with Ottens, Ling, Bartel, Selwood, Corey and Kelly able to spend more time beating up on the opposition. Our big body players don't bat as deep this season, we'll need our best players on the park and we'll need to be a bit more efficient (which we have been).

Can we do that this year? Maybe, I still think we're in with a good chance but without Ling & Ottens around the ball, the ability to win contested ball gets that much harder.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

^^^^^ catsmaninamerica

Agree with your summary, but also think Senaotguesty has a point - by the time these 'outs' are 'in', and our structure then returns to normal, the season may have got away from us.

To win a flag you need to finish top 4 (and it helps to have locked that top 4 berth early enough to player manage at certain points of the season). To make top 4 you need wins on the board. Disregarding further injuries, our best 22 will not entirely be available until a bit after the mid season break. To make top 4 I think we would need at least 7 wins by that rd 11-12 break. That means beating beating COLL and/or CARL with a still young, weakened team. Seems a big ask.

Anyway, I hope your analysis/prediction is spot on. Would be more than happy to see your call proved right.

 

[BUSTER29]

I know what your saying but the issue is when we DO get these guys back and playing decent footy we just wont have enough wins to get near top 4. Realistically you cant win the flag outside the top 4.

Bingo! I havent completely written our flag chances off yet, but if we continue to drop games ,we are not going to be in a position to make
a serious charge when and if we have our best team on the park.
I think we will probably sneak into the bottom part of the top 8.
Happy to be proven wrong though.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

I'm not writing the season off. I'm just saying it's tougher this year. It's not going to be so easy for us to finish top 4 this season and I think it will be that much tougher to manage the list. We need to strike a balance between finishing in a good position and coming in with fresh players.

Once we make the finals though the footy only gets harder. We can't afford to be a weak contested footy team which means we can't afford to be playing so many young inexperienced players. Last season we were weak in the season with clearances but stepped it up a notch with Ottens, Ling, Bartel, Selwood, Corey and Kelly able to spend more time beating up on the opposition. Our big body players don't bat as deep this season, we'll need our best players on the park and we'll need to be a bit more efficient (which we have been).

Can we do that this year? Maybe, I still think we're in with a good chance but without Ling & Ottens around the ball, the ability to win contested ball gets that much harder.

IMO this is the main reason our contested ball has dropped so markedly. We lost a big bodied, hard tackling 1st ruck, and a mid-field general who excelled in close-in football.

It is no accident that our drop in contested ball directly coincides with Otten's and Ling's retirements.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

True, finishing top 4 is ideal. BUT...

IN a year that will see the Eagles possibly with a home final and maybe even Adelaide, there is a good arguement that finishing 5th or 6th is more advantageous. Id sooner have to win 4 without travelling than 3, a loss but a trip to Perth.

The other thing you need to remember is this is the first year in a long time that there is no "dominant" favourite. Anyone could sneak up ad pinch a flag, ala Essendon in 93. That also augers well for winning it from 5th or 6th. I dont think finishing in the bottom half of the finals is as bad a thing as all of you, particularly if we peak in Sept. We will storm home.

Keep the faith.

 

[manboob]

Ottens /thread

 

[SuperCats9]

Hunger and drive, no doubt about it. Did you watch the Western Bulldogs today? they turned up to play and gave everything, the end result was they won the game and also smashed North in contested ball. So it's obviously hunger, drive, will to get the ball and work hard.

A few of the senior guys have dropped off, maybe they are trying but time is now catching up on them.

Scott says that the effort is there but can't identify the problem as to why we can't win the contested ball, last year we were awesome at it.

 

[juzcat]

I think it's Ling and his sheer bulk. So many times you would see ling stand up in tackles and get a handball away. We lose contested by 20 every week.
That 10 lingy used to get plus the 10 or more he stopped on the oppositions best mid.
With Lingy in the clinches others could spread.
I am still amazed at the size of Ling
Last night he interviewed Hird. Same height and looked about 20 kg heavier
On toP of that losing our strength coach to essendon was a major loss
Kids like Smedts would barely break 78kg soaking wet.
After a year off he should of put on 10kg in the quads, core and
Chest. Likewise for Duncan, Motlop and Christensen. All look like
They lack muscle tone

 

[footscore]

yeh you folks may have hit the nail on the head...I didn't even think of Lingy or Otto, now you bring them up
depressing to think back..they truly were champions who constantly stood up in big games.

I can't even remember a time when they were beaten comprehensively or simply gave up like we saw on the weekend.

Guess we just gotta move on and try and manage the new comers as best we can. Hopefully Lingy or Ottens are still involved with club to a degree?

Massive chance to focus on contested possies this friday night. Hopefully we are as manic as Jimmy & Selwood in last year's GF

 

[Senatorguesty]

I agree Footscore, I think now people are starting to realise that Dinga and Otto were out and out champions of our club.
All time greats IMO. Otto probably the second best ruck who has ever played for the Cats especially if you consider the impact he had on BIG games/finals.

 

[manboob]

I think it's Ling and his sheer bulk. So many times you would see ling stand up in tackles and get a handball away. We lose contested by 20 every week.
That 10 lingy used to get plus the 10 or more he stopped on the oppositions best mid.
With Lingy in the clinches others could spread.
I am still amazed at the size of Ling
Last night he interviewed Hird. Same height and looked about 20 kg heavier
On toP of that losing our strength coach to essendon was a major loss
Kids like Smedts would barely break 78kg soaking wet.
After a year off he should of put on 10kg in the quads, core and
Chest. Likewise for Duncan, Motlop and Christensen. All look like
They lack muscle tone

Yeah great point! Now that you mention it I have so much footage in my head of ling getting a cheeky little hand pass away while being tackled

 

[Cat Tragic]

1 - Otttens - not sure of the solution here as West isn't it!
2 - Game time into Guthrie, Smedts, Motlop, West, Duncan, Stringer, etc - this will ultimately fix itself when they are 50 game players. Til then it will continue to happen.

 

[cynical]

I fear its over, without ling and ottens we lack the depth to win the flag now.

It's ok having a duncan or a christensen in your side but once you start adding a few more you get outmuscled around the ground.

If everything goes right and we scrape into 4th and have our full list with simpson being a more than servicable 1st ruck then we can win it but I'm thinking it's fairly unlikely. Guys coming back from long term injury take a while to hit their straps.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Scarlet Bartel Varcoe Menzel Wojincski Vardy Stokes -there all class players -thats a hell of alot of talent out of the side

The thing i noticed yesterday with Scarlet out -was that Taylor and Lonegran had to beat their opponent one out and stuggled -when theres 3 talls -2 of them can seem to double team against an opponent

The premiership is a mile away -weve got to just get a string of wins on the board
Im not going to whinge about the draw-but you look at Adelaide -they play qws and GC Twice that is a massive advantage -i think this year you might need 18 wins to get into top 4 . I also think there are a couple of pretenders in there -so because of the comprimised draw - i think there might be 2 or 3 teams who end up in the bottom half of the 8 who could give it a real Shake

 

[footscore]

was that Taylor and Lonegran had to beat their opponent one out and stuggled -when theres 3 talls -2 of them can seem to double team against an opponent

And you can't forget the size of those Adelaide boys, bloody hell! They are monsters.
Walker looks like he's added a good 5 or so kg's over the preseason but he stands 195cm & 98kg, Tippett stands 203cm & 107kg and then the mature aged recruit Callinan who adds another seasoned tougher body.

After this past game, I certainly changed my views on them although everything they touched seemed to turn to gold like some matches everynow and again can (RD24 2011).

 

[Sttew]

Ottens wasn't everywhere. Sure we miss his work in the air and at ground level, and probably mis Ling's toughness more. But I reckon Mick Malthouse hit the nail on the head. He fears Geelong has lost the motivation and when that happens you come off second best.

As an aside Malthouse is the commentator of the year IMO

 

[fpm84]

We showed against Hawthorn that when we have the hunger to win, we can still match anybody. I'm hoping for the same intensity on Friday night in what is clearly the most important game of our season to date.

 

[topic97]

We still didnt win the contested posession count against the Hawks though, and thats the big drama.

Ottens & Ling aside, does anyone think that another factor could be that we have lost a hell of a lot of coaching firepower too?
If you think about it, we have lost both Mcartney & Sanderson which were highly regarded both internally and externally.

But I guess we just have to show a little faith in Scotty that he has it all under control, he did come from one of the best contested sides of recent history after all.....