Opinion Why Can't We Beat Carlton?

[Calcium Man]

Not that it mattered but i was just watching the latest hardwick video, how was that last goal for Garlett not given as a high free kick to Rance??

The vid for those interested
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/video/2014-01-24/hardwicks-expectations

 

[Truetiger]

Not that it mattered but i was just watching the latest hardwick video, how was that last goal for Garlett not given as a high free kick to Rance??

The vid for those interested
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/video/2014-01-24/hardwicks-expectations

Cause the umpire might of called ducked play on lol.

 

[Calcium Man]

Cause the umpire might of called ducked play on lol.

Was not a rule until this coming season just ask a Selwood

 

[theflea]

I never understand this whole blame the coach thing. The players are the ones who practice scenarios day in, day out at training. Do you realise it takes, on average, 3 minutes from the coach sending the instructions to the interchange bench, to them actually being received by the players? That is why players are forced to practice game situations at training, because, by the time the coach sends an instruction on how to play in a certain scenario, most of the time, the game has changed, and that scenario is no longer present.

I understand what you are saying. The coach is in charge of devising game plans, and scenarios, but ultimately, the coach is not on the field, employing said tactics. The players are, so whilst Dimma might not be a great tactician, it is the players responsibility to adapt to the situations on the field.

I still don't agree he isn't a great tactician as he made up tactics to work against the hawks and freo who were finalists so imo you cant have it both ways. My op on this is, the game has changed a long way when coaches used to make wholesale changes(ie FB to the fwd line) because the game now isn't played he same way. Fwd press, zoning etc has made some of these changes hard to implement(speed of the game) but the critical component is winning the ball. Every time we lose, its because we cant win the ball for long enough, so the logical strategy is to train them up for this. Some scenarios can obviously be swapped around but ultimately you don't see Clarko, Lyon, Longmire swap things around much. They tend to try to get more grunt thru the middle more than traditional wholesale changes which is what DH has tried to do. The fact on some of those losses , the feedback was the players simply didn't follow instructions and no matter what we tried we couldn't arrest this. Having a guy like choco on board would surely have an idea at the time yet it didn't make any difference. This equals to me that DH tried everything.

If you think this is a blocks idea then you have an alternative view to Lee Matthew as this is his view also.

 

[TigerTank]

Across the breadth of the ground Richmond has more quality now, as evidenced by winning more matches over the course of a season.
However carlton exposes the area where we remain weak: a lack of genuine defensive mids. While carlton's midfield may or may not have more quality than Richmond's, it certainly has more versatility.
We have one defensive mid who is adequate: Jackson, who is an okay stopper (good but not elite in my opinion) at least partially compensated by his ability to get his own ball.
However if two opposition inside mids get on a roll, our options are limited. Games ebb and flow, and at times it necessary to lock down to halt momentum going the other way. Against carlton we have failed spectacularly to do that pretty much in every game over the past half decade or more, including the lone victory.
The loss of Conca in that final may have been crucial. He would have been a useful match up against Murphy. As it was, Hardwick had no option to cover Murphy if Jackson was on Judd, or Judd if Jackson was covering Murphy. As it turned out, it was Judd that murdered us, the single most influential player in the match.
You can blame Hardwick but I would say he did not have the piece on the board to do anything about what happened in the third quarter. Of course, he along with others have some responsibility for the list.
As a matter of some urgency, we need another midfielder who is fast enough, fit enough, smart enough and disciplined enough to sacrifice his own game at times, to be thrown in the midfield along with Jackson to halt opposition midfield momentum, or at the very least give Jackson a chop out.
Who have we developed to be this player? I don't see one at all.
The biggest criticism of Jackson in the past has been his decision making and disposal. Incidently, one of the main causes of poor decision making and poor disposal is fatigue.
Do we need to draft or trade for a specialist tagger? Can we at least try to convince an existing midfielder to add another dimension to their game?
I'd opt for the former. Sides that win finals almost always have this type of player, even if they never receive the credit they deserve.

 

[wart101]

we can, we just need to be fitter.

 

[Grockadoc]

Across the breadth of the ground Richmond has more quality now, as evidenced by winning more matches over the course of a season.
However carlton exposes the area where we remain weak: a lack of genuine defensive mids. While carlton's midfield may or may not have more quality than Richmond's, it certainly has more versatility.
We have one defensive mid who is adequate: Jackson, who is an okay stopper (good but not elite in my opinion) at least partially compensated by his ability to get his own ball.
However if two opposition inside mids get on a roll, our options are limited. Games ebb and flow, and at times it necessary to lock down to halt momentum going the other way. Against carlton we have failed spectacularly to do that pretty much in every game over the past half decade or more, including the lone victory.
The loss of Conca in that final may have been crucial. He would have been a useful match up against Murphy. As it was, Hardwick had no option to cover Murphy if Jackson was on Judd, or Judd if Jackson was covering Murphy. As it turned out, it was Judd that murdered us, the single most influential player in the match.
You can blame Hardwick but I would say he did not have the piece on the board to do anything about what happened in the third quarter. Of course, he along with others have some responsibility for the list.
As a matter of some urgency, we need another midfielder who is fast enough, fit enough, smart enough and disciplined enough to sacrifice his own game at times, to be thrown in the midfield along with Jackson to halt opposition midfield momentum, or at the very least give Jackson a chop out.
Who have we developed to be this player? I don't see one at all.
The biggest criticism of Jackson in the past has been his decision making and disposal. Incidently, one of the main causes of poor decision making and poor disposal is fatigue.
Do we need to draft or trade for a specialist tagger? Can we at least try to convince an existing midfielder to add another dimension to their game?
I'd opt for the former. Sides that win finals almost always have this type of player, even if they never receive the credit they deserve.

From what I've heard, TigerTank, Vlastuin is pegged for a role similar to what Jackson plays, and has played it before. Not so much as a tagger, but more someone who is accountable for his opponent defensively, but is good enough to warrant his opponent being accountable for him defensively, as Nick pushes forward.

But I do think that we might need someone who can play a shut down role. Anyone think, with his limitations, Matt Thomas could play a shutdown role? I also think Jake King could be someone who plays a shutdown role.

 

[forwardflanker]

Inexperience imo. The last two times you played them you could of put them to the sword at certain stages of the game but instead let them back into it. Carlton are a pretty average team and play an unaccountable style however this also means they can hit the scoreboard quickly. Any team in the top 10 who can put in a 4 quarter accountable performance against Carlton will beat them easily - it's been this way a long time now. Richmond failed to do this and payed for it in 2013 however I doubt they make the same mistakes in 2014.

 

[Croat tiger]

This is starting to become a concern. 11 of the last 12 times they have beaten us, and it probably should be 12/12. It's concerning because they are such an average side. Even the bulldogs and saints beat Carlton regularly.

Our list IMO is much better than theirs, a lot of their midfielders are soft frontrunners like Gibbs and murphy, and we have Cotchin and Martin. Josh Bootsma is also their number one defender, which should really hold them back, but it doesn't seem too. We have Rance and Chaplin, so we beat them in defence as well. Our ruck stocks are also superior, as we have Maric and they have Kreuzer (who has been a bitterly disappointing number one draft pick). The forward lines are pretty even, both need improvement, but I give us the edge as we have Riewoldt while Carlton's key forward is Jarrad Waite, who keeps getting injured. So on paper it seems we are the better side, yet we cannot beat them.

I do not understand why. Is it mental? Is it lack of pace? Is it cos we are scared of Chris Judd who always plays well against us, and used to tear us to shreds at West Coast? Or is it due to inferior fitness? We seem to tire late in game, while Carltank seem to run out games well. How do we improve this though. I think a new fitness program could help, but I don't want us to get soft tissue injuries, so maybe we shouldn't try to increase our fitness. Essendon brought in a fitness program before, and got so many injuries that ASADA stepped in and took their points.

So what can we do??? Your thoughts???

It's mainly above the shoulders, we had them on the ropes three times last year but we couldn't find the knock out blow...we need to get more mentally tough and we have to put them away when we have a 5 or 6 goal lead, we shouldn't just let them back in the game so easily, also we need to be a lot fitter this year because our endurance levels was one worst going around in the league last year...we seem to fold when we are very tired.

 

[tugga]

It's strange how a lot of their spuds tear us a new one.
In the final it was Duigan (who isn't really a spud, I actually rate him a bit but Malthouse clearly doesn't). In round 1, Hampson (who is our spud now) kicked three. In the late season H&A game Casboult smashed us (now there is a genuine potato).
We need to get better at curbing all 22 of our opposition's players, not just their better players.
The trend I have highlighted is quite alarming.
We always seem to make opposition strugglers look like guns. It's been happening for a long time.

 

[tugga]

Hird won't coach ever again. You can bookmark it and do whatever you please to it if he does again.
That's why he is getting paid this year.
Bassett will take over in 2015. Hird is finished.

 

[The Jet]

This is starting to become a concern. 11 of the last 12 times they have beaten us, and it probably should be 12/12. It's concerning because they are such an average side. Even the bulldogs and saints beat Carlton regularly.

Our list IMO is much better than theirs, a lot of their midfielders are soft frontrunners like Gibbs and murphy, and we have Cotchin and Martin. Josh Bootsma is also their number one defender, which should really hold them back, but it doesn't seem too. We have Rance and Chaplin, so we beat them in defence as well. Our ruck stocks are also superior, as we have Maric and they have Kreuzer (who has been a bitterly disappointing number one draft pick). The forward lines are pretty even, both need improvement, but I give us the edge as we have Riewoldt while Carlton's key forward is Jarrad Waite, who keeps getting injured. So on paper it seems we are the better side, yet we cannot beat them.

I do not understand why. Is it mental? Is it lack of pace? Is it cos we are scared of Chris Judd who always plays well against us, and used to tear us to shreds at West Coast? Or is it due to inferior fitness? We seem to tire late in game, while Carltank seem to run out games well. How do we improve this though. I think a new fitness program could help, but I don't want us to get soft tissue injuries, so maybe we shouldn't try to increase our fitness. Essendon brought in a fitness program before, and got so many injuries that ASADA stepped in and took their points.

So what can we do??? Your thoughts???

Ya beat them last season. So yes, tigers can and did beat Carlton.

 

[WATIGE]

Our game plan is designed to win a GF. This game plan is open to being countered by fast breaking, unaccountable game plan styles while the players are not at peak fitness and are still young and have concentration lapses. Ironically this isn't shown up by teams playing that same GF winning design game plan. Hence we have beaten all the GFinalists of the last two years in the last two years but have suffered losses against shit teams like Norf and the Blues (even pies to a degree). More maturity, improved fitness base plus some degree of list improvement will see our lapses against second string unaccountable teams decrease - watch the difference this year.

 

[Tigers69]

Couldn't agree more WAT. We are still in many respects refining this game plan and require two high paced small forwards who are an improvement on what we currently have.

 

[GH213]

Couldn't agree more WAT. We are still in many respects refining this game plan and require two high paced small forwards who are an improvement on what we currently have.

Lennon & McDonough

 

[THE_GUN]

Lennon & McDonough

I wouldnt rate Lennon or McDonough as being 'High Paced' both are just really average in regards to speed of foot

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

I know this is irrational but I'd love to play Arnott and tell him to absolutely smash every Carlton player out there.

 

[Groupie_]

I know this is irrational but I'd love to play Arnott and tell him to absolutely smash every Carlton player out there.

Might have to change his name to Neil

 

[THE_GUN]

I know this is irrational but I'd love to play Arnott and tell him to absolutely smash every Carlton player out there.

Just run through that Bogan Flog Robinson will do me

 

[RichoLedio]

And if there was a 'Hate' or a 'Troll' Button - You would of had the record for the fastest to achieve 1000 hates on BigFooty

There was once, it was a terrible idea

 

[THE_GUN]

There was once, it was a terrible idea

Really need it for this flog

 

[PerthBoy87]

G'day all,

There is several ways to look at it. First of all my view. I reckon a lot of it is mental. When I used to play cricket, my team used to struggle against this one club. This club had beaten us the last seven years and for whatever reason(s) - my team just struggled against them. I remember looking at the fixture at the start of the cricket season and the first thing I'd do (along with the rest of the players) was look for when we would be playing this particular team.

Come game day or training sessions leading up to playing this particular team, there would always be talk amongst my team of sentences such as: "Oh gee we haven't beaten this mob in a long time" or "Bloody hell we struggle against this team" or "Howcome we can't beat them" Or "What is wrong with us"

What I'm saying is that I think the whole "Richmond struggle against Carlton" thing is mental related. When I mean mental - I mean really really deep in the players minds. Surely it must bug Richmond players because it's almost like "the same old" will happen and Richmond players will do their best to try and avoid it.

The second point I'll make is when my cousin played at Richmond (2001-2007) - Richmond struggled against Carlton, in fact the stats show that in that period from 2001-2007 Richmond played Carlton 23 times and Richmond won 6 and Carlton winning 17. There could be a number of reasons for this, again I think mentally Richmond just got overcome with the whole "We find it hard to beat Carlton" and my cousin told me a few times that it sometimes can eat in the back of a players mind when a particular club has the wood on your club. Another reason could be that Richmond have struggled in recent times and Carlton have been a better team then us although 2013 proved the Tigers were better. The last reason could simply be that its "just one of those things in AFL footy" where a club has the wood on another club and that's just part of AFL footy because it's probably impossible for a club to have the wood on every other club in the competition.

For the record, overall Richmond and Carlton have played each other 212 times with Richmond winning 85 and Carlton winning 125 and there has been 2 draws as well.

Anyway they are my thoughts, just thought I'd share them.

Oh and also, North Melbourne seems to have the wood over Richmond as well for some reason, overall Richmond have played North Melbourne 152 times with Richmond winning 82 and North Melbourne winning 68 and 2 draws as well, however since 2000 they have played each other 18 times with Richmond winning 5 and North Melbourne winning 12 and 1 draw. Since 1980 they have played each other 55 times with Richmond winning 21 and North Melbourne winning 33 and 1 draw.

Hope you all had a good Australia Day.


Cheers.

 

[Equus]

This thread is cooked. Some cleaning tonight I think and some banning as well.

 

[Heisenberg_]

This thread is cooked. Some cleaning tonight I think and some banning as well.

Already done