why did we need to go tall?

[HereComesTheTruth]

I'm gunna take a different angle.

I think the main 3 players in this discussion are banno, hadley and walker. our gun attacking midfielders need some protection at the clearences but they didnt get that this year because all three bigger bodies we injured.

It'll be alot easier for murph, stevo and co to hit blokes lace out if they havent got 3 blokes hanging off them.

Less pressure when our mids are kicking into our forward 50 = higher quality of ball being received. Cloke wont need to play like a superstar

Clokey will play CHF, hes a very accurate kick as is fev, kreuzer and houlihan. Eddie and yarran will do the ground work and chasing. fisher and russell will float down when needed.

But to answer the question, did we lose coming out of this draft because we didnt get a tall? No we didnt because we had to take yarran and at our picks there didnt seem to be the quality of tall we were looking for...yes there were talls around but they would have taken even longer to develop, having no impact in 09 or 10 minimum

 

[barone]

i agree to some degree with 'HereComesTheTruth' if the midfield is delivering the ball on a platter to the forwards then even an average forward will be able to kick goals.
A good example of this is Cameron Mooney, yes he is a decent player but he has over achieved these past 2 years due to his midfield's delivery into the forward 50.
Another example of this was Longergan, who is less then an average footy player yet was still able to have games where he kicked bags of goals.

Either way we need someone to step up from the list we have and kick 40 goals this season. There is no doubting we need a tall but we are not backing what we have on our list enough.
They are all still kids and don't under estimate Setanta, with that amount of will power to succeed he could still be anything.

 

[AlecDuncan]

They are all still kids and don't under estimate Setanta, with that amount of will power to succeed he could still be anything.

Speaking of Earl, Irish reminds me of him more than anyone else since his day.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Cloke definitely has the motor to be a good CHF. He's a good mark and kick as well.

Well actually, his motor is a problem. He mostly gets away with it in the ruck, but CHF is much more demanding.

Then there's the pace he does it at. He'll never be quick, which not only holds him back on the lead but lets opponents run off him at will. In fact I reckon he'd be slower than any opposing CHB in the league, and you can bet opposition coaches will be praying for that matchup.

Yes, he's a strong mark - when he gets to the fall of the ball. And he's a booming, but not particularly accurate, kick. All that adds up to mediocrity at CHF for us I'm afraid. Our reconstruction is not complete - we need a champion CHF to get there. 2008 wasn't the draft for that, perhaps 2009 will be.

 

[Effes]

Our forward line is fine when we win the ball out of the middle and directly enter inside 50. Problems occur when we win the ball in defence and/or there is a throw in/ball up, allowing the opposition to push numbers back. We have added some variety to our forward line in Yarran and Kreuzer can be an option as a lead up forward but also contesting/taking contested marks deep in the forward line as seen against Port Adelaide. The midfielders need to be better in their decision making. If the usual third tall suspects are peeling off to get in front of Fev then don't kick it to him. Use Fevola to drag defenders away from Fisher, Kreuzer etc. For this to occur Fev needs to be disciplined.

Looking at Port Adelaide's goal kicking list for their premiership year in 2004 it is evident that two dominant key forwards aren't essential.

Player G
Warren Tredrea 81
Brendon Lade 31
Stuart Dew 31
Gavin Wanganeen 24
Toby Thurstans 24
Josh Mahoney 20
Byron Pickett 20
Shaun Burgoyne 18
Brett Ebert 17
Domenic Cassisi 15
Dean Brogan 14
Jarrad Schofield 13
Kane Cornes 12
Peter Burgoyne 12
Josh Carr 11
Roger James 9
Michael Wilson 9
Adam Kingsley 8
Damon White 8
Steven Salopek 6
Brett Montgomery 5
Matthew Primus 4
Chad Cornes 4
Jared Poulton 4
Stuart Cochrane 2
Jacob Surjan 2
Damien Hardwick 1
Darryl Wakelin 1
Matthew Bishop 0
Troy Chaplin 0
Michael Pettigrew 0
Brad Symes 0

 

[Silvagnis]

Our reconstruction is not complete - we need a champion CHF to get there.

Disagree.

The Pies and Bombers aren't guaranteed to get there just because they have quality small, medium and tall forwards coming through.

I'd rather have WCE's list with their ruck division and future midfield.

WCE will be a contender again with Cox, Naitanui, Seaby, Masten, Priddis, Ebert, Kerr, Shuey, Smith, Hurn, Embley, Butler, Stenglein and Swift feeding Kennedy, McKinley, LeCras, Hansen and Brown.

That midfield is better than Collingwood and Essendon's mids/rucks and arguably deeper than Geelong's midfield.

We need Austin, Jamison and Bower to develop into quality tall defenders to free up Waite to play as a forward. Carlos pulling his finger out and repeating his effort at CHB on Cloke this year would also make out future spine.

Waite is young enough and mobile enough to play the Mooney role when Carlton comes of age.

WCE won a flag with Hansen as a lead up CHF and Hunter pinch hitting as a forward when they needed another goalkicker.

Austin or Waite can potentially play that Hunter role and switch forward depending on match ups.

Another tall would be good, but isn't the be all, end all.

Yet I'm still going to cross my fingers that a young bottom age tall/ruck such as Tom Hill who was overlooked develops into a forward and not a ruckman.

 

[mac25]

Disagree.

The Pies and Bombers aren't guaranteed to get there just because they have quality small, medium and tall forwards coming through.

I'd rather have WCE's list with their ruck division and future midfield.

WCE will be a contender again with Cox, Naitanui, Seaby, Masten, Priddis, Ebert, Kerr, Shuey, Smith, Hurn, Embley, Butler, Stenglein and Swift feeding Kennedy, McKinley, LeCras, Hansen and Brown.

That midfield is better than Collingwood and Essendon's mids/rucks and arguably deeper than Geelong's midfield.

We need Austin, Jamison and Bower to develop into quality tall defenders to free up Waite to play as a forward. Carlos pulling his finger out and repeating his effort at CHB on Cloke this year would also make out future spine.

Waite is young enough and mobile enough to play the Mooney role when Carlton comes of age.

WCE won a flag with Hansen as a lead up CHF and Hunter pinch hitting as a forward when they needed another goalkicker.

Austin or Waite can potentially play that Hunter role and switch forward depending on match ups.

Another tall would be good, but isn't the be all, end all.

Yet I'm still going to cross my fingers that a young bottom age tall/ruck such as Tom Hill who was overlooked develops into a forward and not a ruckman.

l think you are missing the point that for any team to have a prolonged period of success we will need to find another quality forward soon, as to look ahead to two/three years time we will have a strong young group of key defenders/midfielders and ruckman, but our attack will have no young quality key forwards particuarly with Fev in the twilight of his career at that stage.

We must strive to develop a all round strong team unit not just sorely based on having a elite midfield as a strong attack will be the icing on the cake with the list we have already assembled.

Clearly Hawthorn are going to be a force for the next five years with a very young list we will need to improve significantly our front half to match them in the next few years.

We must find one in the next draft/trade period without a doubt.

 

[Cruddy]

Then you add Cloke. We put him up forward late in the season, and he delivered. He's not a star. He never has been, and it is more than likely that he never will be. But he is a tall forward that provides us with another avenue to goal. He can take a grab and is a strong body, ideal for a CHF in fact. He'll be given a full season up forward to make his mark and I think some will be pleasantly surprised by what he has to offer as a full-time forward.


Happy to agree, I am am a fan of Cloke and loved his attitude in 08. I don't think he is a long term CHF, but I have no doubt he can do a job next year.
Nice!

It looks as if Cam has been told he will be playing CHF this year and that is why he has slimmed down toned up to give it his best shot. For all Carlton supporters I hope he can deliver and hold down this spot for many years to come.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Disagree.

The Pies and Bombers aren't guaranteed to get there just because they have quality small, medium and tall forwards coming through.

True, but then neither are the Dogs just because they have a great midfield.

No argument we need a great midfield, I've never said differently. I'm just saying that we have an obvious weakness at CHF and we need to address it in future drafts. I'm happy with our drafting priorities thus far.

We need Austin, Jamison and Bower to develop into quality tall defenders to free up Waite to play as a forward. Carlos pulling his finger out and repeating his effort at CHB on Cloke this year would also make out future spine.

Yes Waite is the obvious CHF in waiting, however he's convinced me that his best football is running out of defence. I've seen him get lost too regularly at CHF. Perhaps Austin is the CHF we've been looking for - I think he'll make it, but which position? I'm happy with how the defence is looking. Another season should see them become a very cohesive unit.

Another tall would be good, but isn't the be all, end all.

Correct, but we shouldn't kid ourselves we don't have a weakness there. Blind spots kill.

Yet I'm still going to cross my fingers that a young bottom age tall/ruck such as Tom Hill who was overlooked develops into a forward and not a ruckman.

Same here.

 

[parrot]

We definitely don't need more defensive height, that's the first point. We definitely don't need more rucks that's the second point. The issue is do we need another tall KP forward option on our list? We recruited 2 potential KP forward options this year - Tiller and Stanton. Would have preferred at least one 195cm+ type though, especially with Hartlett's ongoing injury issues. Apart from our ruck weakness (now solved), Ratten has identified our variable footskills when moving the ball out of defense and into the forward 50, and was keen to get players who can kick well from day 1, rather than have to correct their kicking deficiencies over a year or 2. So quality of delivery into the forward 50 was thought to be more of an issue rather than KP forward contests. As our young defenders develop, we'll see more and more of Waite in the forward 50. When Waite's at CHF he DOES cause the opposition plenty of grief because of his size, athleticism, raw talent and X-factor. Matty Kruezer also seems to have plenty of natural KP forward ability as well and is freakish at ground level. Think we've got it about right. Think we'll also see Walker being played as a KP forward option in 2009 - this could be a breakout year for this gifted footballer. Add in Yarran and Betts doing the crumbing duties, with Fev on the lead, being fed from the most talented midfield in the AFL. and you do in fact have a forward line with off-the-scale upside.

 

[celtic_pride]

Actually we badly need another tall key defender badly (We have no one really who is a competetive match up on Buddy Franklin at the moment)

 

[AlecDuncan]

Actually we badly need another tall key defender badly (We have no one really who is a competetive match up on Buddy Franklin at the moment)

Bower did alright in round 22. No-one can defend against the kind of supply that Hawthorn were providing that day.

 

[Salaryman]

Actually we badly need another tall key defender badly (We have no one really who is a competetive match up on Buddy Franklin at the moment)

Who does?

 

[AZZA R JONES]

Well actually, his motor is a problem. He mostly gets away with it in the ruck, but CHF is much more demanding.


Yes, he's a strong mark - when he gets to the fall of the ball. And he's a booming, but not particularly accurate, kick.


He kicked 14 goals 6 as a ruckman who pushes forward in 08. If Ratt's and the coaching staff are putting the work into him for a decent crack at CHF, I think its not a bad platform to work from.

 

[BlueYoss]

then there is tiller he's 17yo 189cm can still grow a bit but im hoping he doesn't he reminds me of steve johnson and i think he has the x factor for a hff in a year or two and could turn out to be our best player for this draft.

Tiller is a 17yo 6th round draft pick prayer (and that was not a type-o). Comparing him to Norm Smith medallist Steve Johnson is a bit of a stretch.

I sincerely hope he grows another 6cms and becomes a dominant KPP who would have gone top 10 in a later draft, but Anthony Raso told me not to hold my breath.

Well actually, his motor is a problem. He mostly gets away with it in the ruck, but CHF is much more demanding.

Nathan Buckley captained Cloke for his first few years of football has said that he has a great motor. What is the assumption that he is deficient in this area based on?

Then there's the pace he does it at. He'll never be quick, which not only holds him back on the lead but lets opponents run off him at will. In fact I reckon he'd be slower than any opposing CHB in the league, and you can bet opposition coaches will be praying for that matchup.

Of course his lack of pace could be exploited if they play a smaller quicker player on him. I guess Hodge in Rd22 is still fresh in the mind. Firstly, where was Hodge getting the ball? Was he anywhere near Cloke or was he filling space in front of Fev? Because I know I'd back Cloke in a 1 on 1 marking contest over Hodge, so why weren't our mids passing to Cloke when he was either open or had a much smaller opponent on him? To get Fev to the ton?

If opposition want exploit his lack of pace then it is up to our mids to exploit the opposition's lack of size and hit Cloke up. He'll get a bigger slower defender to man up on him once he's kicked a few easy goals, or they keep the smaller quicker defender zoning off him and he kicks a bag. Who was running off and exploiting Cloke in Rd21 against Brisbane? Merrett?

If his pace is an issue vis-a-vis tackling pressure to lock the ball in the forward line then he is far from the weakest link of our tall forward options:

Tackles per game:

Name 2006 2007 2008 Avg.
Waite 2.62 2.64 3.14 2.80
Walker 1.82 2.53 2.86 2.40
Kreuzer n/a n/a 2.25 2.25
Cloke 2.00 2.00 2.05 2.02
Wiggins 1.92 1.85 1.86 1.88
Kennedy 1.22 2.58 1.00 1.60
O'hAilpin 1.73 1.82 1.08 1.54
Fevola 1.10 1.50 1.70 1.43
Fisher 0.85 1.42 1.10 1.12

He may never be quick on the lead, but his pack marking makes him very useful at CHF to mark or bring the ball to ground or to start in the FP and lead into the space in the goalsquare created after Fev has lead out of it. Defenders will then be double teaming Fev at the risk of leaving Cam open in the goal square.

Cloke is the one who lines up with Fev for the long bomb shots at goal at training. He has a booming kick, only just turned 24 and is yet to play as a permanent forward. At what age did Fev's booming kicking start becoming accurate enough to make him the best long kick of the ball? If Cam only gets halfway there we'de have a formidable forward on our hands. He will have the best in the business to train with and learn from, and some of his pinpoit grass cutter field passes indicate that he definitely has the skill to work with as far as kicking goes.

Considering his size, age, the fact that four shoulder reconstructions restricted him to only 27 games in his first four seasons of AFL after which he was then used as a stop gap ruckman, he's barely had the opportunity to develop in his natural position in the forward line and should therefore have huge upside if he ever gets the opportunity.

My main concern with Cloke is that injury or lack of bulk on Warnock may result in him still being used as an undersized battering ram in the centre square in 2009.

Yes Waite is the obvious CHF in waiting, however he's convinced me that his best football is running out of defence. I've seen him get lost too regularly at CHF. Perhaps Austin is the CHF we've been looking for - I think he'll make it, but which position?

Waite is the second best tall forward on our list but is better as a defender (what a legend!). IMO in the absence of Fev, Waite is easily a 60+ goal a season forward.

I've also been thinking that Austin could be another option for CHF and the more likely Bower looks to stitch up CHB the more realistic this option becomes.

One thing is for certain: we'll never need all of Jamison, Bower, Thornton, Waite, O'hAilpin and Austin in the backline together.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Nathan Buckley captained Cloke for his first few years of football has said that he has a great motor. What is the assumption that he is deficient in this area based on?

I don't know why because he was carrying way more weight at Collingwood than he has since being at Carlton. He'll run 'til he drops but his pace will fall away very quickly. Perhaps I don't give him enough credit for the work he's forced to do as an undersized ruckman.

Look, I'd love to be proven wrong and see Cam become a champion CHF. I just can't see it happening. More importantly, I hope the match committee aren't wearing rose-coloured glasses when they're looking at Cam for CHF.

 

[AlecDuncan]

One thing is for certain: we'll never need all of Jamison, Bower, Thornton, Waite and Austin in the backline together.

And Setanta too. Let's hope Aussie makes his mark this year and provides another option down front.

 

[Blue Dimension]

One thing is for certain: we'll never need all of Jamison, Bower, Thornton, Waite and Austin in the backline together.

That's why we can only hope that Jamo, Bower and T-Bird continue on their way, and hope for one of Austin to stand up, or O'hAilpin to get back into some of the form that he showed in 07.

Then Waite moves up forward and we have the speed and agility and X factor with Betts, Walker, Yarran and Houlihan around Fish, Fev and Waitey.

With Cloke, the forward line just looks 'less likely', than compared to having Waite up front.

Our forward line was our strong point back in the darker years with Fev, Lappin, Fish, Waite, Betts and a fit and firing Lance Whitnall.

We're only missing two from that bunch. Admittedly Lappin was an absolute star, and Lance sensational when on song, but you'd hope that an agile Walker playing tall and a silky Yarran andd Houps will be able to fill in those gaps.


For mine, it all comes down to the development of Austin. He's a massive cog in our future plans. If he doesn't come through thing's mightn't be as great as what they could be. Mind you, i think he's a really good kid with every chance to make it into our side in future, and perhaps as soon as 09.

Of course, let's not discount Kreuzer as a future potent KPP scoring option!

 

[Stig O'Hara]

dunno.

 

[Jeremias]

Er, several times this year - at least in terms of territory and role. He hasn't been great, but he's been doing it as much as anybody else has.

Russell's role was as a defensive half forward. He never played CHF in 2008.

I'm amazed that people in general can bag Russell for his performances when they don't understand what role he was designated to play.

There's the problem. I'll lay odds that Cloke will never be remotely as good a forward as Earl was. We shouldn't be satisfied with a make-shift CHF and that's all Cloke could ever be - if that. Heart isn't a substitute for talent, otherwise David Teague would still be playing.

I think you underestimate how good Earl was. He was quick, strong, worked hard attacking and defending, was great overhead, and mortally threatening to backmen. What I wouldn't give to see another Earl lurking at CHF again.

If you are going to try and convince me that Earl Spalding was that much talented than Cameron Cloke, don't bother because I just won't buy it.

Look, I loved Earl and he was without a doubt one of my favourite players, but he wasn't particularly talented, and he certainly wasn't that much moire talented than Cameron Cloke.

What Earl did have, which is how he cemented his spot, was an insatiable appetite for the contest. He willed himself to the ball each and every time, lead after lead and didn't stop. He demanded the ball from his teammates with continued effort.


I see no reason why Cam can't fill that role. Cloke isn't particularly talented, but one thing that we do know he has is heart. He puts a lot of effort in each time he plays, he leads hard and provides another option. In a similar way to Earl once did, Cam has the physique to be able to demand the ball.

Cam loves to throw his body weight around so I see no reason why he can't stamp himself as a presence on games, just as Earl did.

Walls, Maclure, Kernahan, Spaulding - all at CHF during our modern era premierships. Now ask yourself, is Cloke in that league?

Hopefully the answer falls into our lap next year.

I can't say I ever saw Walls and Maclure play live as I'm a youngster, but I can comment on the other 2. Obviously, Cloke is nowhere near Kernahan who is a legend of the Carlton Football Club and one of the greats of the AFL. Earl, as I've said above, was a workhorse.

I can't help but see the similarities between Earl Spalding and Cameron Cloke, and we need to give Cam every chance to cement his spot up on the half forward line like Earl did.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I can't say I ever saw Walls and Maclure play live as I'm a youngster, but I can comment on the other 2. Obviously, Cloke is nowhere near Kernahan who is a legend of the Carlton Football Club and one of the greats of the AFL. Earl, as I've said above, was a workhorse.

I can't help but see the similarities between Earl Spalding and Cameron Cloke, and we need to give Cam every chance to cement his spot up on the half forward line like Earl did.

I am old enough to have seen Maclure and Walls play. Walls was a springheel skinny player when he started, and quite quick, a great mark and a great kick, Maclure was not quick but was also a great mark and kick. Cloke would be more like Spalding of the 3. I see the same similarities as J.

We could mix it up with Cloke playing a FF role out of the goal square and Fev moving to a more typlical CHF. Fevs range makes him just as dangerous and changes it up. Our mids and running defenders can deliver through the middle to Fev as a short option for a long shot or over Fev to Cloke or Kruze deep with Yarran and Eddie cleaning up spilt ball for snaps. We have options now and should not need to rely on Fev at FF to kick a ton.

 

[BlueYoss]

Cameron Cloke: The Great CHF Debate

Mods, I think a name change for this thread is long overdue

 

[AlecDuncan]

Russell's role was as a defensive half forward.

When we didn't have the ball. The other side of his role was as a tall, lead-up, marking half-forward. Usually at CHF, because he was on the opposition CHB. In the absence of a genuine CHF, that's CHF in my book.

I'm amazed that people in general can bag Russell for his performances when they don't understand what role he was designated to play.

I'm not bagging him, in fact he's much improved on 2007 and despite his obvious clangers is progressing OK. He'll break through eventually. If, on the other hand I don't think he's a great CHF it's because he's cast against type.

If you are going to try and convince me that Earl Spalding was that much talented than Cameron Cloke, don't bother because I just won't buy it.

I won't then. But you're wrong.

I can't help but see the similarities between Earl Spalding and Cameron Cloke, and we need to give Cam every chance to cement his spot up on the half forward line like Earl did.

I can't see any similarities other than they're both taller than average and dubious kicks.

 

[AlecDuncan]

We could mix it up with Cloke playing a FF role out of the goal square and Fev moving to a more typlical CHF. Fevs range makes him just as dangerous and changes it up. Our mids and run

Sadly Fev doesn't have the tank a CHF requires. Of course he's one of the quickest in the league in sprints, but endurance is more important at CHF.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Just to play devils advocate like AlecDuncan, I would like to argue that yes, we do have talls if you want to count centremetres, but no, we don't have talls that rival a premiership contender in defence and attack. My following points are about premiership quality talls on our list, not number of talls! (PS Slightly off topic but so are most of the responses)

Reasoning behind above statement comes from a number of things. Firstly, Hughes has stated on camera that Hurley was probably our first option, if not in the mix for our first choice. He said the decision was straight fwd after Bombers took Hurley leaving us with Yarran. Carlton needed a quality tall over a small as I’m sure they would have taken Hurley with first pick or not mentioned it on camera at all. We took Yarran as there was not another tall KPP on the same quality bracket as Yarran. Same with rest of our picks. I think Hughes did fine on all picks given his situation – I’m not challenging this, I’m just saying we still lack quality talls on our list!

If you are looking for more evidence on lack of quality talls, look no further than Waite. Everyone who knows Carlton’s squad realise Waite is preferred at CHF rather than CHB. He is back there to lend a hand to what was (pre 2008) a deplorable defence. If Waite has to go back rather than stay at CHF, this is evidence we have a lack of quality defensive talls. Yes, we have defensive talls if you want centemetres, but not premiership class ones or he wouldn’t have been moved.

In defence we have talls, Jamison, Thornton, Waite, Bower. Outside of Carlton supporters, most see these guys as ok with some decent upside to Jamison/Bower. We as Carlton supports rate them much higher of course but we are biased.

In attack we have talls Fev, Kruezer, Fisher, Cloke. Right now, non Carlton supporters rate Fev/Kruezer and no one else to an elite degree. Others are ok. If we play Fev, Kruezer, Cloke and Fisher, can you imagine the rebound out of defence for the opposition. Cloke too slow, Fisher falls over all the time , Fev is too lazy half the time etc…game is fast now. Waite is fast enough for CHF but plays CHB. Cloke is a short term solution. Think Bock on Cloke and think Bock running off for 30+ possessions setting up all of Adelaide’s goals. Note: I do agree Cloke can ave 2 goals a game tho .

If we lost either Fev (80-100 gls) or Waite, it would derail our top 8 prospects. If Hawks lost Buddy, they would still make top 4 due to their KPP stocks. Same if Cats lost a KPP player. This suggests we have a lack of quality talls on our list. This is not to say the other talls like Cloke, Setanta etc wont do a decent interim job for us. My point is, overall, our KPP stocks are average to good players. The exceptions being Fev. Waite is more than handy and Kruezer/Bower show potential to be more than good.

We lack quality talls and we lack backup good talls!

PS
I rate our midfield easily premiership class already. I rate our ruck division good and almost ready to hit premiership class thru Kruezer and Warnock in the next 1-2 years.