Why don't spinners have more variations?

[kiwi4life]

Been watching highlights of Warne on youtube. From what I could tell he had 4 different deliveries. The stock leg break. The topspinner, the flipper and I've course the wrong'un. Having such an array of deliveries obviously made him as dangerous as he was. The way he would set up batsman for this flipper was masterful.

Most spinners however only have 2 deliveries. Their stock delivery and the googly. Take the current day spinners except Rashid Khan I can't really think of any other spinners that have more than 2 variations. Take a current international spinner like Adam Zampa From what I've watched of him he's never even once attempted a flipper in a game before? Infact there's quite a crop of young leggies around world cricket yet haven't seen them bowl and other deliveries besides the standard leg break and wrong un. Not a flipper or toppie in sight?

Why do you guys think spinners lack variation.

 

[PhatBoy]

Been watching highlights of Warne on youtube. From what I could tell he had 4 different deliveries. The stock leg break. The topspinner, the flipper and I've course the wrong'un. Having such an array of deliveries obviously made him as dangerous as he was. The way he would set up batsman for this flipper was masterful.

Most spinners however only have 2 deliveries. Their stock delivery and the googly. Take the current day spinners except Rashid Khan I can't really think of any other spinners that have more than 2 variations. Take a current international spinner like Adam Zampa From what I've watched of him he's never even once attempted a flipper in a game before? Infact there's quite a crop of young leggies around world cricket yet haven't seen them bowl and other deliveries besides the standard leg break and wrong un. Not a flipper or toppie in sight?

Why do you guys think spinners lack variation.

Because, quite simply, they can’t land them.

I could literally walk down to the nets and bowl at least some sort of version of every Warne variation.

What made him a genius was being able to land his leg break 120 times a day and then when he wanted to bowl a top spinner or flipper, he would almost every time land it

 

[ZEV]

Because, quite simply, they can’t land them.

I could literally walk down to the nets and bowl at least some sort of version of every Warne variation.

What made him a genius was being able to land his leg break 120 times a day and then when he wanted to bowl a top spinner or flipper, he would almost every time land it

Past 2002ish I recall it was rare to see a flipper or a googly from Warnie but it seemed he replaced it them with the zooter and slider. The key strength though as you stated was the consistency of length and flight of the stock leg break and his ability to alter the amount of spin without major effect on line/length/flight.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

I don’t think people should confuse a lack of different types of deliveries with a lack of variation. The best spinners use subtle changes in angle of delivery, speed, length, revs on the ball to deceive the batsmen. Herath comes to mind.

 

[Gough]

Past 2002ish I recall it was rare to see a flipper or a googly from Warnie but it seemed he replaced it them with the zooter and slider. The key strength though as you stated was the consistency of length and flight of the stock leg break and his ability to alter the amount of spin without major effect on line/length/flight.

The slider was a piece of Warne genius. He convinced the cricketing world that he'd invented the straight break

 

[iluvparis]

I think the shoulder opp was what did in his flipper. Gee it was a highlight early on in his career

 

[Gough]

I think the shoulder opp was what did in his flipper. Gee it was a highlight early on in his career

He was the first proper strike bowler AB ever had so he absolutely flogged him.

 

[Post padding]

Been watching highlights of Warne on youtube. From what I could tell he had 4 different deliveries. The stock leg break. The topspinner, the flipper and I've course the wrong'un. Having such an array of deliveries obviously made him as dangerous as he was. The way he would set up batsman for this flipper was masterful.

Most spinners however only have 2 deliveries. Their stock delivery and the googly. Take the current day spinners except Rashid Khan I can't really think of any other spinners that have more than 2 variations. Take a current international spinner like Adam Zampa From what I've watched of him he's never even once attempted a flipper in a game before? Infact there's quite a crop of young leggies around world cricket yet haven't seen them bowl and other deliveries besides the standard leg break and wrong un. Not a flipper or toppie in sight?

Why do you guys think spinners lack variation.

Too be fair. How many consistently bowled the flipper before Warne ?

 

[Pippen94]

The slider was a piece of Warne genius. He convinced the cricketing world that he'd invented the straight break

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Too be fair. How many consistently bowled the flipper before Warne ?

Many leggies bowled the flipper through the generations, including Clarrie Grimmet, Richie Benaud, etc. However, Warne was so strong in the arms and upper body, he was able to pitch the flipper on a fuller length than others leggies, making it a more lethal delivery.

 

[thejockey]

Been watching highlights of Warne on youtube. From what I could tell he had 4 different deliveries. The stock leg break. The topspinner, the flipper and I've course the wrong'un. Having such an array of deliveries obviously made him as dangerous as he was. The way he would set up batsman for this flipper was masterful.

Most spinners however only have 2 deliveries. Their stock delivery and the googly. Take the current day spinners except Rashid Khan I can't really think of any other spinners that have more than 2 variations. Take a current international spinner like Adam Zampa From what I've watched of him he's never even once attempted a flipper in a game before? Infact there's quite a crop of young leggies around world cricket yet haven't seen them bowl and other deliveries besides the standard leg break and wrong un. Not a flipper or toppie in sight?

Why do you guys think spinners lack variation.

Zampa and the other young leggies/spinners around at that level can bowl all if not most of them . You would even get premier or grade spinners and the odd local spinner who can . Landing them consistently is a whole different thing.

Warne bowled huge turning leggies with the elite accuracy of a finger spinner . This made batsman tentative, unsure and bought his tricks into play.
His flipper and wrongun werent super hard too pick but 9 times out of 10 he landed them .
Amazing given how hard flippers are too bowl.

 

[PhatBoy]

Zampa and the other young leggies/spinners around at that level can bowl all if not most of them . You would even get premier or grade spinners and the odd local spinner who can . Landing them consistently is a whole different thing.

Warne bowled huge turning leggies with the elite accuracy of a finger spinner . This made batsman tentative, unsure and bought his tricks into play.
His flipper and wrongun werent super hard too pick but 9 times out of 10 he landed them .
Amazing given how hard flippers are too bowl.

This. The next two best leggies I’ve seen are Kumble and MacGill. One of them was relentlessly accurate and had a bit of variation, the other had huge turning leg breaks and wrong uns. Aside from a good wrong un, Warne had all of that in one package

 

[Caesar]

Why do you guys think spinners lack variation.

There is a difference between bowling balls that spin in different directions, and lacking variation.

Whatever you see of Warne highlights on YouTube, effective spin bowling isn't really about bamboozling batsmen with stuff that explodes off the pitch in all sorts of unpredictable directions. It's about delivering a really good stock ball over and over and over, with exceptional control, and a bunch of minor adjustments to pace/spin/flight. That's the variation that keeps the batsman concentrating and builds pressure, because one mistake on one ball means one of those subtle variations takes the edge or sneaks past the bat for lbw/b.

In that context, a single change-up is often all you need - plenty of finger-spinners have made excellent careers with nothing more than exceptional stock bowling and an effective arm ball. Swann and Vettori are great recent examples.

Of course if you can bowl 3 or 4 completely different deliveries, all with the same extremely high level of control, variation and nuance then that is fantastic. But I think people like OP underestimate how incredibly hard that is. With spin bowling less is often more, and a spinner who executes 2 balls exceptionally well will probably have more success than one who delivers 3 or 4 different balls merely proficiently.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Too be fair. How many consistently bowled the flipper before Warne ?

Next to none and none since

The commentators at the time when Warne bowled that flipper to Richie Richardson at the MCG didn't know what it was.

"Kept a bit low"

And these are long term high profile test players (Tony Grieg and Michael Holding). Richie Benaud explained it on air later.



Zampa has a leg break, slider and wrong 'un. Very similar repertoire to Warne except for the flipper.

However his leg break barely turns so it's hardly different from his slider at all. Most current leg spinners are like this. Lots of quicker, flatter deliveries that go straight-ish.

As well as amazing accuracy it was Warne's ability to genuinely turn a leg break on any surface that set him apart and, in turn, made his slider so dangerous.

I don't know why we don't see more leggies turn the ball. Three factors for me
1. High revs
2. Seam angle - lots look to have either too much side spin or too much overspin (Warne had the perfect combination of the two) or the ball 'tipped backwards' if that makes sense. Lots tend to bowl scrambled seam now as well seeking natural variation and to help age the ball. Warne mostly spun his leg break along the seam.
3. Speed - there is an optimum speed for each pitch to gain maximim turn. Feel spinners bowl too quick generally now.

 

[big_e]

Bowling isn't about having a certain number of variations, it's knowing when to use them.

 

[Mockcockpit]

Warne didn't really have a good googly as his action was too round arm, at least later in his career. I'm hard pressed to remember a killer googly from him actually though I stand to be corrected.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Warne didn't really have a good googly as his action was too round arm, at least later in his career. I'm hard pressed to remember a killer googly from him actually though I stand to be corrected.

You're right about Warne's wrong un. Rarely used it and was nothing special

Macgill had a round arm action though and a killer wrong 'un

 

[Mockcockpit]

Yes very true. Maybe better to say that Warne's wrist position at release made it difficult to bowl a good googly.

 

[PhatBoy]

I could be wrong but didn’t he say all along he didn’t have much of a wrong un and then when his shoulder went he shelved it altogether

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I could be wrong but didn’t he say all along he didn’t have much of a wrong un and then when his shoulder went he shelved it altogether

I vaguely remember something like that. Also after a finger operation his flipper disappeared

I remember hearing a former Indian spinner (name escapes me) talking about the way he coaches spin bowling and he said simply you need one that turns, one that doesn't and for the batters to be unable to tell them apart.

By the end that was Warne and he was just as effective as in his earlier years

 

[PhatBoy]

I vaguely remember something like that. Also after a finger operation his flipper disappeared

I remember hearing a former Indian spinner (name escapes me) talking about the way he coaches spin bowling and he said simply you need one that turns, one that doesn't and for the batters to be unable to tell them apart.

By the end that was Warne and he was just as effective as in his earlier years

I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned the name Herath - he is the definition of that bowler

 

[Mockcockpit]

I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned the name Herath - he is the definition of that bowler

I loved watching him bowl. A series of lessons from a master of the art of varying speed and trajectory.

 

[Leeda]

because the growth of the wicket is so enormous that dudes can't actually get on board...

or that people who want to win are looking for a Warney information..

Or that Time... or Warner.. are just so good that they run between wickets and take the speed off the ball...

No the probability is that they are riding a smooth hundred and it is easier when they don't think too much about it..

 

[Leeda]

I could be wrong but didn’t he say all along he didn’t have much of a wrong un and then when his shoulder went he shelved it altogether

Warne's is always wrong when he tries to punt his own ability.. too much hyperbole..

 

[The King!]

doesnt help young leg spinners will often get tonked around trying out variations and short form cricket they can't afford that