Opinion Why the AFL should say sorry to Fitzroy

[Roylion]

An article by Michael Warner in today's Herald Sun / Courier Mail argues that the AFL should say sorry to Fitzroy for ejecting it from the AFL.

Several quotes from former president Dyson Hore-Lacy about the events of 1996 in the article.

Claims that Fitzroy had a supporter base of 200,000 of which about half do not support the Brisbane Lions in the AFL.

No mention of the fact that Fitzroy Football Club still exists in its own right and now plays in the VAFA.

 

[vjknight]

An article by Michael Warner in today's Herald Sun / Courier Mail argues that the AFL should say sorry to Fitzroy for ejecting it from the AFL.

Several quotes from former president Dyson Hore-Lacy about the events of 1996 in the article.

Claims that Fitzroy had a supporter base of 200,000 of which about half do not support the Brisbane Lions in the AFL.

No mention of the fact that Fitzroy Football Club still exists in its own right and now plays in the VAFA.

good luck in getting anything from the current or former league heavies. like many in the corporate world, its never their fault.

the only consolation for many is that its likely the shameful treatment of fitzroy led to the financial & draft concessions only a matter of years later.

never forgotten.

 

[Soul1986]

good luck in getting anything from the current or former league heavies. like many in the corporate world, its never their fault.

the only consolation for many is that its likely the shameful treatment of fitzroy led to the financial & draft concessions only a matter of years later.

never forgotten.

No chance, at all, the AFL will apologise for removing us from the AFL.

For staters, they wouldnt have the courage to do it or admit they screwed up.

How much would the broadcast deal be worth now, with 19 clubs?

Based on a quick calcuation, an extra team would add- 14 million per season or 70 million over 5 years, based on the current deal for 18 clubs.

Assuming we would receive similar funding via the ASD to other clubs (particularly North Melbourne who we are always compared to in terms of overall support nationally), there would still be tens of millions of dollars left over.

This additional funding, could be put back into the competition, grassroots or perhaps help secure a 20th AFL team (Demetrious has hinted at this in the future) adding another 14 odd million to the broadcast deal.

 

[smy1305]

Are you for real?? There would never have been 19 clubs - EVER. You may as well say the AFL are looking for 22 clubs with that sort of math.

The ONLY reason we were forced out of the comp was because it was in the League's best interests to remove a club that was haemorraging badly financially and combine it with one that needed players. Who cares how many supporters we had - what matters is the number that came to games and that was 2/3 of FA. Our membership base was low, game attendances were low and we were dispensable as far as the League went. Unfortunately it wasn't a quick process but one that happened over a few years that started with the Lynch deal and then snowballed from there.

 

[Soul1986]

Are you for real?? There would never have been 19 clubs - EVER. You may as well say the AFL are looking for 22 clubs with that sort of math.

The ONLY reason we were forced out of the comp was because it was in the League's best interests to remove a club that was haemorraging badly financially and combine it with one that needed players. Who cares how many supporters we had - what matters is the number that came to games and that was 2/3 of FA. Our membership base was low, game attendances were low and we were dispensable as far as the League went. Unfortunately it wasn't a quick process but one that happened over a few years that started with the Lynch deal and then snowballed from there.

Mate, with all respect, you have no idea what your talking about. If you had read the headline and article itself, you would have noted this. Its why the article was written in the first place.

Point 1: Yes, the AFL wanted us out. But, critically The AFL, set out to strategically remove us. How?? The book written by Hore Lacy spells everything out. In summary, they forced us out to Footscray, put in place draft rules to leave us with a skeleton football team. No assistance (ala the ASD to most clubs today). Not to mention bad mouthing us at every opportunity, including assisting the media and certain journalists to do so.

The end result?? Low crowds, low memberships, low sponsorship and a financial rabble with little or no public image.

North Melbourne, Richmond and the bulldogs also had poor crowds over the years, especially in the 80s and 90s - I remember Richmond had just over 6 000 for a game against the eagles in the early 90s. And these poor crowds werent at Western Oval like us..

They were allowed to rebuild with AFL assistance. Hore-Lacy also stated Fitzroy would have rebuild quickly, if the same opportunity afforded itself.

Re 19 clubs- Demetriou stated in an article in the Sunday Herald Sun last year, the AFL hopes to have 20 clubs at some point.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Mate, with all respect, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Very true. More than fair to say he lacks substantial knowledge about the whiteanting campaign by the AFL against Fitzroy.

It started well over a decade prior to 1996, well before he seems to think it did. And at the time it started - around 1984, when the AFL forced us out of our home ground at Junction Oval, and then prevented us from setting up at Waverley - we had strong enough membership compared with other VFL clubs, and strong enough attendances.

Fitzroy's average yearly attendance at home from 1978-1984 was 230,500. Higher, for instance, than average crowds at St Kilda, Footscray, Sydney, and North Melbourne.

Before the AFL forced us out of Junction Oval (where we averaged over 20,000/game for a number of seasons, 16-19,000/game otherwise), which was the year the League's war on us began, our membership was only 2000 less than Essendon's. And higher than Geelong's. Or St Kilda's.

We made the finals in three of our last four years at Junction Oval. And since it was a top 5 then, making finals was substantially more difficult than it is now, of course.

After 1984, we were forced, by the AFL, into a permanent gypsy-like existence, moving from one dire stadium deal to another, to the point where we ended up playing our last 3 seasons in the AFL miles away from our supporters.

A decision forced upon us, again, by the AFL, which not only reduced our attendances enormously, but alienated many of our key players in the process.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Here being a more comprehensive and detailed rundown of the AFL's extended and extensive whiteanting campaign against the Roys- first compiled by Roylion and added to a little by me.

Mobbs has also put this up in parts before on the board here under the monicker of the "White-Ant Files".

1- Fitzroy was refused permission by the AFL to partially relocate to Canberra, and play seven home games there each season, despite having negotiated a deal which would have netted the Club an extra million dollars a year.

Initially, the club was told that Fitzroy's application to play 4 home games in Canberra (which would have netted the club $350,000 annually guaranteed) would "not be a credible exercise" in the Canberra market and would "not be enough games to be worthwhile."

Ross Oakley later said, in an amazingly offensive public statement, that Fitzroy was their 'worst product" and that the AFL wasn't going to send their 'worst product" up to Canberra. (Very clear that the aim of such a statement was to damage the public reputation of Fitzroy)

Fitzroy then offered to play, as I said, 7 home games in Canberra, which would have netted Fitzroy at least $700,000 a year. In fact, when adding in corporate sponsorship, and ground rights at Bruce Stadium (which would have been upgraded), Fitzroy's projections showed they would have made $1 million extra per season.

Fitzroy's application had the support of the 'AFL for Canberra' organisation, the Canberra Raiders, the Ainslie Football Club and the ACT chief minister, who offered to upgrade Bruce Stadium. However, the AFL point-blank refused to entertain the idea. An AFL commissioner later admitted that the reason why the AFL knocked it back was because they wanted Port Adelaide in the competition, and wanted to keep the pressure on Fitzroy to "merge".

2- Fitzroy was forced to move from the Junction Oval at the end of 1984 through the AFL's ground rationalisation policy, then was knocked back to play out of Waverley, forcing the club to move to Princes Park and Victoria Park at relatively poor deals right throughout the late 1980's and 1990's. (In the final washup, we received no revenue in the end from our time at Princes Park. Not one red cent)

3. In 1986, a Melbourne-based company, Hecron, had agreed to become a partial owner of Fitzroy in return for financing the club to the tune of $2.6 million (which would have enabled the club to pay off all existing debts and afford to pay for new facilities and players).

The League vetoed that deal.

4- Fitzroy was given no financial assistance to play home games in Tasmania (despite pioneering the move), paying all associated expenses out of its own pocket.

We had to pay the whole cost off our own bat, including accommodation. We even ended up having to billet players in supporters' homes. Since that time, AFL support for Hawthorn and St Kilda in Tasmania has been enormous.

5- Fitzroy was refused permission by the AFL to redirect their annual AFL dividend to the banks to service loans.

6- The AFL refused, on at least three different occasions, to guarantee Fitzroy's annual dividend (paid to all clubs as a matter of course), which made it impossible to borrow money or service loans to aid cash flow.

They guaranteed the dividend for all other clubs. Just not us.

7- Over the head of Fitzroy, the AFL guaranteed Carlton 22 matches at Princes Park from 1993-2000 irrespective of whether Fitzroy played there or not. Fitzroy had no bargaining power to negotiate a better ground deal with Carlton. When Carlton came with a poorer deal from 1993, Fitzroy had to either accept a deal in which they would make no ground revenue or consider a move. So we moved....yet again.

8- The AFL regularly leaked sensitive information provided to the League by Fitzroy about Club finances, in order for their media flunkies like Mike Sheahan to write negative stories about Fitzroy, which in turn scared off potential sponsors.

9- The AFL regularly tried to tell potential sponsors who inquired about the possibility of sponsoring Fitzroy that they "shouldn't bother, because Fitzroy would not be in the competition for much longer." (That information comes straight from a Fitzroy director at the time)

10- The AFL brought in a new rule regarding the salary cap, widely known as the "Fitzroy rule", demanding that all clubs pay a certain minimum percentage of the cap, or have punitive measures taken against them by the League. It was an open secret amongst all club administrations that this "rule" was imposed to make life more difficult for Fitzroy.

11- the AFL advised player manager Damien Smith on how best the Bears could secure Alistair Lynch from Fitzroy and stay under the salary cap. Lynch's leaving triggered a player exodus, as he was largely regarded as one of Fitzroy's two best players. In hindsight, that was the point that Fitzroy went downhill sharply.

(Also, the AFL played a role in helping Collingwood to steal Gary Pert, helping Sydney to nick Roos, Osborne and Kappler, helping Richmond to take Dundas, Broderick and Gale from us, and helping North Melbourne to get Blakey away from us too, as I said before)

12- The AFL threatened to sue Fitzroy for $250,000 that had been paid to Fitzroy by CUB as part of a club sponsorship, which included selling CUB's product in the Fitzroy Club Hotel. CUB was the AFL's sponsor and the AFL thought they should have received the money instead of Fitzroy. This was despite the fact that CUB had been a minor sponsor of Fitzroy for over ten years previously.

The AFL even threatened to reduce the dividend to other clubs by the amount Fitzroy received, in an underhanded scheme to get other clubs to pressure us. This was another reason the Lions were forced to make a deal to play at the Western Oval, which in turn alienated some supporters and players. That deal included Footscray loaning Fitzroy the $250,000 demanded by the AFL - for a loan which, mind you, wasn't even due until the following year.

Alistair Lynch later said that Fitzroy's forced move to the Western Oval was the major reason why he decided to leave Fitzroy and sign with the Bears. Broderick, Gale, Elliott and Dundas followed Lynch shortly after. Robert Shaw, the Fitzroy coach at the time, lamented that he'd just lost his next three club captains.

13- From 1993 the AFL issued a number of solvency notices where the club had to satisfy AFL criteria that they could meet their financial debts for the next 12 months or their AFL licence would be withdrawn.

Guess who was the only club to get a solvency notice. That's right, Fitzroy.

We were issued notices under this AFL solvency rule, which meant that if the AFL commission considered a club MAY not have been able to pay it's debts, and the said club could not prove to the AFL's satisfaction that it was able to meet financial commitments for the next twelve months, their AFL licence could be removed.

Fitzroy received several solvency notices from the AFL, despite many of the Victorian clubs having higher debts. Obviously, different standards were applied to us. You can guess why.

14- The AFL objected to a campaign where Fitzroy made 10c from every can of Solo drink sold, because Paul Roos' jumper in the advertising campaign had an AFL logo on it. The AFL was sponsored by Coca Cola.

15- The AFL objected to a Fitzroy sponsorship deal with Schweppes because they were sponsored by Coca Cola. Fitzroy managed to raise $110,000 from this sponsorship before it was rendered untenable by AFL interference.

16- The AFL objected to a Fitzroy sponsorship deal with Pay TV provider Galaxy, supposedly because it might clash with their Channel 7 deal.

17- Fitzroy was refused by the AFL to allow businessman Bernie Ahern to loan money to help the Lions. The AFL could have helped Fitzroy at no risk to themselves or the other clubs in the competition, but didn't want to.

18- The AFL refused to release a debenture charge over the Fitzroy Club Hotel for $250,000 even though Fitzroy had paid it back....until legal action by Fitzroy was threatened. The AFL backed down when that occurred..

19- The AFL repeatedly requested that Fitzroy directors call a meeting of Fitzroy members and shareholders to change the articles of association to "merge", without members and shareholders' agreement/consent.

20- The AFL refused in April 1996 to pay out a dividend in advance to keep Fitzroy in the competition, despite a Fitzroy promise to "merge" at the end of the year.

21- The AFL "proposed" several times, at the end of 1995, that Fitzroy hand in its licence and be run by an AFL-run company with a new licence called Fitzroy Lions Pty.Ltd. and if a "merge" was not affected by the end of 1996, would be liquidated. And we were supposed to do this in return for "assistance packages" to keep the club going. That way Fitzroy's creditors wouldn't get paid.

22- the AFL in early 1996 refused a two-week advancement of $100,000 from a $1.1 million regular AFL dividend to the club to help with cash flow.

23- Fitzroy's auditors KPMG were even raided by the Australian Securities Commission under a warrant to investigate Fitzroy for 'suspect trading while insolvent' for 1993 and 1996. The ASC claimed they were acting on information passed to them.

The AFL were the only organisation who had full access to Fitzroy's finances. So the dirt sheet passed to the ASC could only have come from the AFL.

24. Even at the end, the AFL gave Fitzroy and North Melbourne until July 5th 1996 to complete a deal to combine the clubs' AFL operations, only to give the go-ahead to a forced Brisbane-Fitzroy scenario on July 4th.

25. During negotations with North Melbourne, the AFL were telling North that if they held out, they wouldn't have to pay Fitzroy creditors at all and would receive all of the financial package for completion of this deal themselves, forcing Nauru and other creditors to take their own actions to try to recover anything owed to them.

This was despite the fact that the Fitzroy directors had already done a deal to settle with Nauru out of that financial package. However, North refused to authorise Fitzroy to pay any more than $550,000, as a result of advice given to them by the AFL.

26. When Ian Collins received a fax that the deal with Brisbane was done, he reportedly raised his hands and said "We finally got rid of them."

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

As far as money and attendances go, the AFL could reinstate the Roys and restore us to the robust health we were in back in 1984, for a tiny fraction of the money being pumped into G€ and GW$. And be assured of decent attendances.

Junction Oval was for us what Kardinia Park is for Geelong. And our crowds were certainly respectable enough there before the VFL/AFL made us move at the end of 1984, and prevented us from establishing ourselves at Waverley after that - the start of the anti-Fitzroy whiteanting.

Moreover, if we'd not been prevented by the AFL from completing that deal we had signed, sealed and delivered in Canberra back in '95, the AFL would now have a strong and enduring base in the ACT, comparable to or better than anything Hawthorn have achieved in Tasmania.

Or if they'd given us even the slightest bit of help when we pioneered a move into Tasmania, back in the early 90s, we would have achieved what Hawthorn have now, much earlier. We had at least as much support already in Hobart at that time, as Hawthorn have been able to build up in Northern Tasmania.

But the AFL's forcing us out of Junction Oval, vetoing our Canberra deal, and stymieing our move into Tasmania, was all part of the same agenda, to undermine us at every turn, and belt us around from pillar to post until we didn't have the resources to fight them any longer.

If we'd had things as heavily slanted in our favour as can be said for the GW$ and Gold €oa$t franchises right now, our attendances, and membership, would have been a Christ of a lot higher than the current GW$ and G€ numbers, that's for sure.

But we didn't need that sort of help. All we needed was for Oakley, Samuel, Collins et al not to be doing us over constantly.

 

[Wild Kangaroo]

Here being a more comprehensive and detailed rundown of the AFL's extended and extensive whiteanting campaign against the Roys- first compiled by Roylion and added to a little by me.

Mobbs has also put this up in parts before on the board here under the monicker of the "White-Ant Files".

1- Fitzroy was refused permission by the AFL to partially relocate to Canberra, and play seven home games there each season, despite having negotiated a deal which would have netted the Club an extra million dollars a year.

Initially, the club was told that Fitzroy's application to play 4 home games in Canberra (which would have netted the club $350,000 annually guaranteed) would "not be a credible exercise" in the Canberra market and would "not be enough games to be worthwhile."

Ross Oakley later said, in an amazingly offensive public statement, that Fitzroy was their 'worst product" and that the AFL wasn't going to send their 'worst product" up to Canberra. (Very clear that the aim of such a statement was to damage the public reputation of Fitzroy)

Fitzroy then offered to play, as I said, 7 home games in Canberra, which would have netted Fitzroy at least $700,000 a year. In fact, when adding in corporate sponsorship, and ground rights at Bruce Stadium (which would have been upgraded), Fitzroy's projections showed they would have made $1 million extra per season.

Fitzroy's application had the support of the 'AFL for Canberra' organisation, the Canberra Raiders, the Ainslie Football Club and the ACT chief minister, who offered to upgrade Bruce Stadium. However, the AFL point-blank refused to entertain the idea. An AFL commissioner later admitted that the reason why the AFL knocked it back was because they wanted Port Adelaide in the competition, and wanted to keep the pressure on Fitzroy to "merge".

2- Fitzroy was forced to move from the Junction Oval at the end of 1984 through the AFL's ground rationalisation policy, then was knocked back to play out of Waverley, forcing the club to move to Princes Park and Victoria Park at relatively poor deals right throughout the late 1980's and 1990's. (In the final washup, we received no revenue in the end from our time at Princes Park. Not one red cent)

3. In 1986, a Melbourne-based company, Hecron, had agreed to become a partial owner of Fitzroy in return for financing the club to the tune of $2.6 million (which would have enabled the club to pay off all existing debts and afford to pay for new facilities and players).

The League vetoed that deal.

4- Fitzroy was given no financial assistance to play home games in Tasmania (despite pioneering the move), paying all associated expenses out of its own pocket.

We had to pay the whole cost off our own bat, including accommodation. We even ended up having to billet players in supporters' homes. Since that time, AFL support for Hawthorn and St Kilda in Tasmania has been enormous.

5- Fitzroy was refused permission by the AFL to redirect their annual AFL dividend to the banks to service loans.

6- The AFL refused, on at least three different occasions, to guarantee Fitzroy's annual dividend (paid to all clubs as a matter of course), which made it impossible to borrow money or service loans to aid cash flow.

They guaranteed the dividend for all other clubs. Just not us.

7- Over the head of Fitzroy, the AFL guaranteed Carlton 22 matches at Princes Park from 1993-2000 irrespective of whether Fitzroy played there or not. Fitzroy had no bargaining power to negotiate a better ground deal with Carlton. When Carlton came with a poorer deal from 1993, Fitzroy had to either accept a deal in which they would make no ground revenue or consider a move. So we moved....yet again.

8- The AFL regularly leaked sensitive information provided to the League by Fitzroy about Club finances, in order for their media flunkies like Mike Sheahan to write negative stories about Fitzroy, which in turn scared off potential sponsors.

9- The AFL regularly tried to tell potential sponsors who inquired about the possibility of sponsoring Fitzroy that they "shouldn't bother, because Fitzroy would not be in the competition for much longer." (That information comes straight from a Fitzroy director at the time)

10- The AFL brought in a new rule regarding the salary cap, widely known as the "Fitzroy rule", demanding that all clubs pay a certain minimum percentage of the cap, or have punitive measures taken against them by the League. It was an open secret amongst all club administrations that this "rule" was imposed to make life more difficult for Fitzroy.

11- the AFL advised player manager Damien Smith on how best the Bears could secure Alistair Lynch from Fitzroy and stay under the salary cap. Lynch's leaving triggered a player exodus, as he was largely regarded as one of Fitzroy's two best players. In hindsight, that was the point that Fitzroy went downhill sharply.

(Also, the AFL played a role in helping Collingwood to steal Gary Pert, helping Sydney to nick Roos, Osborne and Kappler, helping Richmond to take Dundas, Broderick and Gale from us, and helping North Melbourne to get Blakey away from us too, as I said before)

12- The AFL threatened to sue Fitzroy for $250,000 that had been paid to Fitzroy by CUB as part of a club sponsorship, which included selling CUB's product in the Fitzroy Club Hotel. CUB was the AFL's sponsor and the AFL thought they should have received the money instead of Fitzroy. This was despite the fact that CUB had been a minor sponsor of Fitzroy for over ten years previously.

The AFL even threatened to reduce the dividend to other clubs by the amount Fitzroy received, in an underhanded scheme to get other clubs to pressure us. This was another reason the Lions were forced to make a deal to play at the Western Oval, which in turn alienated some supporters and players. That deal included Footscray loaning Fitzroy the $250,000 demanded by the AFL - for a loan which, mind you, wasn't even due until the following year.

Alistair Lynch later said that Fitzroy's forced move to the Western Oval was the major reason why he decided to leave Fitzroy and sign with the Bears. Broderick, Gale, Elliott and Dundas followed Lynch shortly after. Robert Shaw, the Fitzroy coach at the time, lamented that he'd just lost his next three club captains.

13- From 1993 the AFL issued a number of solvency notices where the club had to satisfy AFL criteria that they could meet their financial debts for the next 12 months or their AFL licence would be withdrawn.

Guess who was the only club to get a solvency notice. That's right, Fitzroy.

We were issued notices under this AFL solvency rule, which meant that if the AFL commission considered a club MAY not have been able to pay it's debts, and the said club could not prove to the AFL's satisfaction that it was able to meet financial commitments for the next twelve months, their AFL licence could be removed.

Fitzroy received several solvency notices from the AFL, despite many of the Victorian clubs having higher debts. Obviously, different standards were applied to us. You can guess why.

14- The AFL objected to a campaign where Fitzroy made 10c from every can of Solo drink sold, because Paul Roos' jumper in the advertising campaign had an AFL logo on it. The AFL was sponsored by Coca Cola.

15- The AFL objected to a Fitzroy sponsorship deal with Schweppes because they were sponsored by Coca Cola. Fitzroy managed to raise $110,000 from this sponsorship before it was rendered untenable by AFL interference.

16- The AFL objected to a Fitzroy sponsorship deal with Pay TV provider Galaxy, supposedly because it might clash with their Channel 7 deal.

17- Fitzroy was refused by the AFL to allow businessman Bernie Ahern to loan money to help the Lions. The AFL could have helped Fitzroy at no risk to themselves or the other clubs in the competition, but didn't want to.

18- The AFL refused to release a debenture charge over the Fitzroy Club Hotel for $250,000 even though Fitzroy had paid it back....until legal action by Fitzroy was threatened. The AFL backed down when that occurred..

19- The AFL repeatedly requested that Fitzroy directors call a meeting of Fitzroy members and shareholders to change the articles of association to "merge", without members and shareholders' agreement/consent.

20- The AFL refused in April 1996 to pay out a dividend in advance to keep Fitzroy in the competition, despite a Fitzroy promise to "merge" at the end of the year.

21- The AFL "proposed" several times, at the end of 1995, that Fitzroy hand in its licence and be run by an AFL-run company with a new licence called Fitzroy Lions Pty.Ltd. and if a "merge" was not affected by the end of 1996, would be liquidated. And we were supposed to do this in return for "assistance packages" to keep the club going. That way Fitzroy's creditors wouldn't get paid.

22- the AFL in early 1996 refused a two-week advancement of $100,000 from a $1.1 million regular AFL dividend to the club to help with cash flow.

23- Fitzroy's auditors KPMG were even raided by the Australian Securities Commission under a warrant to investigate Fitzroy for 'suspect trading while insolvent' for 1993 and 1996. The ASC claimed they were acting on information passed to them.

The AFL were the only organisation who had full access to Fitzroy's finances. So the dirt sheet passed to the ASC could only have come from the AFL.

24. Even at the end, the AFL gave Fitzroy and North Melbourne until July 5th 1996 to complete a deal to combine the clubs' AFL operations, only to give the go-ahead to a forced Brisbane-Fitzroy scenario on July 4th.

25. During negotations with North Melbourne, the AFL were telling North that if they held out, they wouldn't have to pay Fitzroy creditors at all and would receive all of the financial package for completion of this deal themselves, forcing Nauru and other creditors to take their own actions to try to recover anything owed to them.

This was despite the fact that the Fitzroy directors had already done a deal to settle with Nauru out of that financial package. However, North refused to authorise Fitzroy to pay any more than $550,000, as a result of advice given to them by the AFL.

26. When Ian Collins received a fax that the deal with Brisbane was done, he reportedly raised his hands and said "We finally got rid of them."

__________________


This is brilliant. This should be used in a means publicly to show how wrong the then AFL was.

I've been thinking of starting a consortium of some sort, just like what happened with the South Sydney Rabbitohs in the NRL. But I dont think it would get off the ground, as we would need proof and a ton of research to be done to bring Fotzry back ( Ala GC17 & GWS) start them in the VFL. Plus a ton of money would be needed.

 

[The Lions Den]

It would be easy to bring Fitzroy back into the AFL,

Change the name from Brisbane Lions to Brisbane-Fitzroy Lions and wear the Fitzroy Jumper for Melbourne Games, and there you have it, we are back...

Meanwhile dont forget round 1 of the VAFA, V Parkdale at Parkdale.

 

[Broken]

The AFL will never apologise for their treatment of Fitzroy leading up to 1996. As far as they are concerned the Brisbane solution was the best outcome for all concerned (teams, fans, league, etc...) and will bang on about all-time high memberships, attendances, blah, blah, blah to justify it.

 

[Stocka]

To think that we were given an "ultimatum" to "merge or die" back in 1996 is just about unthinkable in today's football world. You could not imagine it happening these days.

It is certainly galling to think of how various clubs have been propped up financially over the last 10 years, whereas, we were hindered in just about every possible manner. Part of me thinks that the AFL have done this to prevent further PR disasters after the negative sentiments surrounding the handling of Fitzroy. Perhaps the average football punter can feel a sense of regret and sadness at losing Fitzroy to the competition, but should more teams follow, then you'd think there'd be downright outrage. I suppose the issue of TV rights also plays a factor these days, but I tend to wonder how long the AFL, and perhaps even the broadcasters will be willing to have a league containing "underperforming" teams/clubs.

Unfortunately, Fitzroy just happened to be the team that had its head on the chopping block moreso than the other Victorian clubs who were also under the pump back in the day.

I'm not so certain that an apology would be worth much - it would not come from those people who were responsible and it would be hard to take it with much sincerity. The last thing that I want as a Fitzroy supporter is to be patronised just to make others look better.

What I would prefer, is for an admission that the handling of the entire issue was "wrong", but then again, I suppose from the perspective of those in charge, they probably got the outcome that they had hoped for, so an admission of wrong-doing would therefore not be forthcoming.

 

[Maroon Goon]

It would be easy to bring Fitzroy back into the AFL,

Change the name from Brisbane Lions to Brisbane-Fitzroy Lions and wear the Fitzroy Jumper for Melbourne Games, and there you have it, we are back...

Meanwhile dont forget round 1 of the VAFA, V Parkdale at Parkdale.

What this guy says

 

[smy1305]

Very true. More than fair to say he lacks substantial knowledge about the whiteanting campaign by the AFL against Fitzroy.

It started well over a decade prior to 1996, well before he seems to think it did. And at the time it started - around 1984, when the AFL forced us out of our home ground at Junction Oval, and then prevented us from setting up at Waverley - we had strong enough membership compared with other VFL clubs, and strong enough attendances.

Fitzroy's average yearly attendance at home from 1978-1984 was 230,500. Higher, for instance, than average crowds at St Kilda, Footscray, Sydney, and North Melbourne.

Before the AFL forced us out of Junction Oval (where we averaged over 20,000/game for a number of seasons, 16-19,000/game otherwise), which was the year the League's war on us began, our membership was only 2000 less than Essendon's. And higher than Geelong's. Or St Kilda's.

We made the finals in three of our last four years at Junction Oval. And since it was a top 5 then, making finals was substantially more difficult than it is now, of course.

After 1984, we were forced, by the AFL, into a permanent gypsy-like existence, moving from one dire stadium deal to another, to the point where we ended up playing our last 3 seasons in the AFL miles away from our supporters.

A decision forced upon us, again, by the AFL, which not only reduced our attendances enormously, but alienated many of our key players in the process.

Think I probably know a tad more about it ALL then you guys - won't give you the history but its safe to say that there was some ordinary decisions made internally by Fitzroy people that didn't help their own survival. Some of those ground changes were actually choices - not all -but one definitley was that lead to the slow eradication of the club. Try closer to 13-17000 average with 14000 in our last year there - thats a terrible attendance. One of the #1 reasons Fitzroy folded was because all the so called supporters never rocked up to support!

Don't get me wrong, appreciate that the VFL / AFL were very much at work in getting rid of us too but to say we even rivalled the Bombers in membership is just laughable. We were lucky to get above 9000 in any given year - funny how time removes memories as well. Even in our best years ('81-'86) we didn't set any records for attendances - bottom line is we were expendable bc our membership / attendances / finances were all ordinary compared to like clubs. The Tigers had just won a premiership and played off in another with massive crowds, the Saints were terrible but managed to still get decent crowds and held a candle for the southern suburbs.

 

[smy1305]

As far as money and attendances go, the AFL could reinstate the Roys and restore us to the robust health we were in back in 1984, for a tiny fraction of the money being pumped into G€ and GW$. And be assured of decent attendances.

Junction Oval was for us what Kardinia Park is for Geelong. And our crowds were certainly respectable enough there before the VFL/AFL made us move at the end of 1984, and prevented us from establishing ourselves at Waverley after that - the start of the anti-Fitzroy whiteanting.

Moreover, if we'd not been prevented by the AFL from completing that deal we had signed, sealed and delivered in Canberra back in '95, the AFL would now have a strong and enduring base in the ACT, comparable to or better than anything Hawthorn have achieved in Tasmania.

Or if they'd given us even the slightest bit of help when we pioneered a move into Tasmania, back in the early 90s, we would have achieved what Hawthorn have now, much earlier. We had at least as much support already in Hobart at that time, as Hawthorn have been able to build up in Northern Tasmania.

But the AFL's forcing us out of Junction Oval, vetoing our Canberra deal, and stymieing our move into Tasmania, was all part of the same agenda, to undermine us at every turn, and belt us around from pillar to post until we didn't have the resources to fight them any longer.

If we'd had things as heavily slanted in our favour as can be said for the GW$ and Gold €oa$t franchises right now, our attendances, and membership, would have been a Christ of a lot higher than the current GW$ and G€ numbers, that's for sure.

But we didn't need that sort of help. All we needed was for Oakley, Samuel, Collins et al not to be doing us over constantly.

Don't disagree with what you have written post this, but please... robust health??? We lived from hand to mouth from the day i was born which was 1968!

 

[Last of the Roys]

smy1305, I think you are right in your overall contention that Fitzroy had been in a very poor state financially for a very long time, and that we had had a small supporter base for a very long time.

I could probably write a book on the reasons why we ended up how we did, but there is no doubt they were a combination of decisions by the Club, historical accidents (like Fitzroy being a small suburb wedged between two big neighbours), and a series of decisions from the VFL / AFL and other external parties (such as local councils) that all combined to seal our fate. The AFL certainly played a big part in deliberately hastening our demise, but it is not too far fetched to argue it was inevitable at some stage anyway given the way the game was going and our financial state / supporter base (and lack of onfield success over many decades until the '80's).


Having said all that, it is a little bit arrogant that you assert - "Think I probably know a tad more about it ALL then you guys" - that may or may not be the case, but I am not sure why you would assume that when you don't know the background of the people you are talking to.

And to pick you up on one issue - Fitzroy's membership did come close to Essendon's at times in the '80's / early '90's. I can't remember the exact numbers or the years but it is definitely something that I remember seeing a long time ago. You have to realise that Club memberships numbers (even for powerhouse clubs) were very low until the mid '90's. Of course our overall supporter base was never anywhere near the powerhouse clubs, so I think we would have slipped further and further behind the membership race if we had kept going.


Anyway, to get back to the point of the thread, at some stage I can see the AFL apologising to Fitzroy supporters, although I don't think it will come any time soon.

While an apology might be nice, it won't mean anything in terms of helping ensure the Fitzroy legacy lives on. On that front the AFL could do a number of things, such as:

- provide the Brisbane Lions (and Sydney) with a financial incentive to invest in (and respect / protect on an ongoing basis) their Victorian base by ensuring they receive half the membership money from their Vic supporters (currently it virtually all goes to the other Melbourne clubs via gate contributions)
- sponsoring (or otherwise providing support to) Fitzroy Football Club in the amateurs (perhaps via the Lions) as an acknowledgement of the special place FFC holds in the history of the VFL / AFL
- working with Fitzroy and the Lions in order to look at long term initiatives around Brunswick Street Oval to gain the support of governments for: a museum / social club / shop / administration, etc for FFC and the Lions Victorian office.

Yeah, you may say none of this is likely to happen. That is probably true if no one cares enough about it. I guess it is our job as former Fitzroy supporters to show people / the AFL how much we care about the Roys legacy and to lobby for things that will help preserve it for all time.

 

[Stocka]

smy1305

Having said all that, it is a little bit arrogant that you assert - "Think I probably know a tad more about it ALL then you guys" - that may or may not be the case, but I am not sure why you would assume that when you don't know the background of the people you are talking to.

To be fair though, there were a few posters earlier who claimed that SMY had "no idea" what he was talking about. SMY's response seemed par for the course for mine and add some quite relevant points to the dialogue.

 

[smy1305]

Thanks Stocka - you are correct in your assumption there (plus I agree with everything you wrote in your previous post!. Normally wouldn't go blowing a trumpet but when your family was heavily involved in various aspects of the FFC from about 1979 - 1990 then I know there are details that are "released" that aren't exactly the truth and also allay blame from some of the people laden with making decisions at the time. Some of the forum punters on here have assumed that the truth lies in their memories of the time and Last of the Roys, your comment re background of people could quite easily be applied to Austin and Soul!!!

I agree with all you have said "Last of the Roys" - in fact reckon it is beholden to the AFL to ensure that at least a couple of the things you have written are done. There is nothing more galling than telling young people today that you either supported or played for the Fitzroy FC (only in the 19's!) and they look at you blankly. When your whole life from age 7 was consumed by this club it is terrible to look back and reflect on how it could have been different "if only"... TBH the only club that was in the same firing line as us was Nth Melbourne and they had the fortune of being a far better football side at the pointy end of the decision making process (mid '90s). Even today, despite their phenomenal success through the 90's they rely (too) heavily on financial support from the AFL.

 

[Last of the Roys]

To be fair though, there were a few posters earlier who claimed that SMY had "no idea" what he was talking about. SMY's response seemed par for the course for mine and add some quite relevant points to the dialogue.

OK thanks for picking that up. I must have skimmed over some of the early parts of the thread where that was mentioned.

 

[Soul1986]

Think I probably know a tad more about it ALL then you guys - won't give you the history but its safe to say that there was some ordinary decisions made internally by Fitzroy people that didn't help their own survival. Some of those ground changes were actually choices - not all -but one definitley was that lead to the slow eradication of the club. Try closer to 13-17000 average with 14000 in our last year there - thats a terrible attendance. One of the #1 reasons Fitzroy folded was because all the so called supporters never rocked up to support!

Don't get me wrong, appreciate that the VFL / AFL were very much at work in getting rid of us too but to say we even rivalled the Bombers in membership is just laughable. We were lucky to get above 9000 in any given year - funny how time removes memories as well. Even in our best years ('81-'86) we didn't set any records for attendances - bottom line is we were expendable bc our membership / attendances / finances were all ordinary compared to like clubs. The Tigers had just won a premiership and played off in another with massive crowds, the Saints were terrible but managed to still get decent crowds and held a candle for the southern suburbs.

Note the following stats- courtesy stats.rleague.com...

1983 average home game attendance:

Fitzroy - 19102
Geelong - 19066
Hawthorn - 20202
North Melbourne - 18850
Footscray - 18961
St Kilda - 20189

The above crowd figures, totally prove you are incorrect. Regarding Fitzroy's average attendance figures. Season 1984 attendances are similar. As are the figures, for overall attendance figures from 1978-1984. In any case, Fitzroy hold their own, in terms of attendance figures during this period. Taking into account ALL clubs figures will vary, based on on-field performance..

A couple of items, worth mentioning at the above average attendance figures:

* Fitzroy and North Melbourne, had very similar seasons - both finishing top 3, playing at their own home ground

* Likewise Hawthorn, who also finished top 3

* Footscray finished a respectable 7th with 10 wins

*Fitzroy/North Melbourne/Footscray have were always compared, in terms of support etc - the above crowd figures justify this long held view...

* Fitzroy, were in the top half of club memberships during the early 80s - these figures will be available somewhere- we were either on par or slightly behind Essendon. ** Note, Essendon's membership swelled upon moving to the MCG in 1992.

** I agree with you regarding our management team, making several bad decisions. But, you need to remember most clubs screwed up in this era and were effectively bankrupt. I know you apparently had close connections to the club during this period. But most of us here (one way or another) have heard all the stories about how the management stuffed Fitzroy up. Id be surprised if any stories that surfaced havent been heard. But (whether this is correct) the bottom line is the OTHER clubs, had wealthy benefactors to save the day, ala Lindsay Fox at St Kilda and another benefactor at Geelong- has since passed, but was acknowledged by Geelong in the last year or two for single handedly keeping them afloat in the 80s.

What hurt Fitzroy the most and cost us (and the current secretary at Fitzroy will tell you this) was our lack of a home ground. Fitzroy were forced from the Junction Oval, by the VFL. Period. This is when our real problems started.

** North Melbourne claim to have 250 000 fans nationally (year 2012). A recent article, suggested Fitzroy had 200 000 fans in 1996. Keeping in mind, North were a powerhouse in the 90s, winning the flag in 1996. Fitzroy collected two wooden spoons in 1995/1996. Taking into account supporter growth since 1996 and the likely fact some people wouldnt admit to being Fitzroy fans in 95/96 we are on par with North Melbourne.

 

[Pacman82]

Saying 'sorry' won't help.....recognising our on field stats/premierships as part of BL's official history would be more dignified.

Home game averages for the last 10 years:

87- 11,498
88- 12,248
89- 13,965
90- 12,403
91- 11,240
92- 13,709
93- 14,672
94- 12,561
95- 11,587
96- 9,482 - the lowest in the league, 2nd lowest was the doggies with 18,073

Poor home game attendances would have cost us. Haven't seen the membership numbers from 87-96 but I'm guessing they were poor in comparision to all other established clubs also.

 

[smy1305]

Note the following stats- courtesy stats.rleague.com...

1983 average home game attendance:

Fitzroy - 19102
Geelong - 19066
Hawthorn - 20202
North Melbourne - 18850
Footscray - 18961
St Kilda - 20189

The above crowd figures, totally prove you are incorrect. Regarding Fitzroy's average attendance figures. Season 1984 attendances are similar. As are the figures, for overall attendance figures from 1978-1984. In any case, Fitzroy hold their own, in terms of attendance figures during this period. Taking into account ALL clubs figures will vary, based on on-field performance..

A couple of items, worth mentioning at the above average attendance figures:

* Fitzroy and North Melbourne, had very similar seasons - both finishing top 3, playing at their own home ground

* Likewise Hawthorn, who also finished top 3

* Footscray finished a respectable 7th with 10 wins

*Fitzroy/North Melbourne/Footscray have were always compared, in terms of support etc - the above crowd figures justify this long held view...

* Fitzroy, were in the top half of club memberships during the early 80s - these figures will be available somewhere- we were either on par or slightly behind Essendon. ** Note, Essendon's membership swelled upon moving to the MCG in 1992.

** I agree with you regarding our management team, making several bad decisions. But, you need to remember most clubs screwed up in this era and were effectively bankrupt. I know you apparently had close connections to the club during this period. But most of us here (one way or another) have heard all the stories about how the management stuffed Fitzroy up. Id be surprised if any stories that surfaced havent been heard. But (whether this is correct) the bottom line is the OTHER clubs, had wealthy benefactors to save the day, ala Lindsay Fox at St Kilda and another benefactor at Geelong- has since passed, but was acknowledged by Geelong in the last year or two for single handedly keeping them afloat in the 80s.

What hurt Fitzroy the most and cost us (and the current secretary at Fitzroy will tell you this) was our lack of a home ground. Fitzroy were forced from the Junction Oval, by the VFL. Period. This is when our real problems started.

** North Melbourne claim to have 250 000 fans nationally (year 2012). A recent article, suggested Fitzroy had 200 000 fans in 1996. Keeping in mind, North were a powerhouse in the 90s, winning the flag in 1996. Fitzroy collected two wooden spoons in 1995/1996. Taking into account supporter growth since 1996 and the likely fact some people wouldnt admit to being Fitzroy fans in 95/96 we are on par with North Melbourne.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/venues/junction_oval_gm.html

You're wrong mate - have a look on this site and then do the math. aver 14,452 in 1984, 17736 in 1983, 14552 in '82, etc. This while we were at our strongest, not weakest. The Saints FFS finished stone motherless last and still had a higher attendance!! Geelong 9th, Footscray 7th.

Bottom line is we were dispensable - easily removed, etc. I agree that the rot started when the club was forced from the Junction but this did not stop Hawthorn from being successful once told to get out of Glenferrie. We should never have chosen to leave Victoria Park in reality. We thought we were going to get into bed with a winner in Carlton with the glut of our supporters coming from the Doncaster/Bulleen, Templestowe regions driving straight up the Eastern Freeway - it never eventuated bc we were done over by the Blues who we should never have trusted (Collins / Elliott!!!) Going to the Western Oval more or less just sped the whole extinction process up - we may as well have died there and then!!

Not sure comparing the current Nth Melb with us back in the 90's is that great - if it wasn't for the TV rights making 18 clubs mandatory they would be extinct in their current format as well I reckon!

Anyway, we might agree to disagree!!

 

[Soul1986]

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/venues/junction_oval_gm.html

You're wrong mate - have a look on this site and then do the math. aver 14,452 in 1984, 17736 in 1983, 14552 in '82, etc. This while we were at our strongest, not weakest. The Saints FFS finished stone motherless last and still had a higher attendance!! Geelong 9th, Footscray 7th.

Bottom line is we were dispensable - easily removed, etc. I agree that the rot started when the club was forced from the Junction but this did not stop Hawthorn from being successful once told to get out of Glenferrie. We should never have chosen to leave Victoria Park in reality. We thought we were going to get into bed with a winner in Carlton with the glut of our supporters coming from the Doncaster/Bulleen, Templestowe regions driving straight up the Eastern Freeway - it never eventuated bc we were done over by the Blues who we should never have trusted (Collins / Elliott!!!) Going to the Western Oval more or less just sped the whole extinction process up - we may as well have died there and then!!

Not sure comparing the current Nth Melb with us back in the 90's is that great - if it wasn't for the TV rights making 18 clubs mandatory they would be extinct in their current format as well I reckon!

Anyway, we might agree to disagree!!

Just to clarify, I am referring to ALL HOME GAMES. I suspect you are referring to home games at the Junction Oval only. Most clubs played a couple of home matches at Waverley/MCG back then. These have to be included for a true comparison...

Fitzroy's 11 home matches, along with the other clubs:

1983 average home game (ALL HOME GAMES) attendances:

Fitzroy - 19102
Geelong - 19066
Hawthorn - 20202
North Melbourne - 18850
Footscray - 18961
St Kilda - 20189

Its in black and white- no matter how you try and twist and turn it. These figures, cleary show, Fitzroy more than held their own for home attendances in 1983.

Again, Ill focus on North- always compared to Fitzroy going back to the 60s. Ironically, Fitzroy and North had similar seasons in 1983 and thus it gives a very true comparison...

Point taken- St Kilda had great attendances for home matches, given their useless team.

But, as I stated, my only interest is comparing us to North Melbourne and Footscray. St Kilda have always been a BIGGER club than us, North and Footscray.

Re your comments about Vic Park/Princes Park:

Victoria Park was an absolute disaster- certainly much worse than Princes Park. Management at the time, thought moving to Vic Park would make for easy access for our fans in the northern/eastern suburbs (as we know where most roys fans reside) due to train line etc.

Remembering we nearly went under in 1986 with Victoria Park as our home ground in 1985/1986.

You will find our crowds were higher at Princes Park than Victoria Park. Particularly in 1992 and 1993.

Princes Park- I understand a similar deal financially (perhaps slightly better) but the theory was exactly the same as Victoria Park - close to Fitzroy and our supporter base in the northern/eastern suburbs - without the BLACK AND WHITE COLLINGWOOD FEEL.

A great shame Elliott and Collo were arsehole landlords as I feel this ground certainly could have worked long term for us. I certainly enjoyed going their and I know a lot of other fans felt the same, unlike Vic Park.

Why compare us to North in the 90s? As I stated earlier, we were always considered on par with them (interms of size of club/support)- our overall support estimated at 200 000 in 1996 (as back to back wooden spooners) and North at 250 000 now (with 16 years more growth in support) with some Tassie fans, confirms this long held belief...

Note we also had more members than North in 1993 (just a few more).

Bottom line I think we would both agree, that, not having a true home base - unlike every other club, was the biggest factor in our ultimate demise and made the VFL's job from 1984 onwards to bring us down, a lot easier than any other club...

 

[Stocka]

Saying 'sorry' won't help.....recognising our on field stats/premierships as part of BL's official history would be more dignified.

Agree entirely.

Poor home game attendances would have cost us. Haven't seen the membership numbers from 87-96 but I'm guessing they were poor in comparision to all other established clubs also.

I guess every club's attendances and membership numbers suffer when there is a lack of success on the field. Unfortunately it seemed that many Fitzroy supporters were too easy on just giving up on the club's plight, which to me, came as a result of lack of enthusiasm about the team's infield performances as well as the seeming inevitability of the club's demise, given the AFL's constant pressure and the negative media portrayal of the club.

Whilst there were a number of people who worked very hard to try to keep the club afloat, it just seemed that when it counted the most, that the numbers that might have mattered were found to be lacking.

I wonder if things might have been different had we not lost so many gun players in the early 90's and managed to be a Premiership threat midway through that decade?

 

[tassielions]

What this guy says

Maybe if they put Fitzroy's name on the premiership cup they would get me and start recognizing Fitzroy's records not Brisbane Bears 1987 records for the club or start afresh 1997. How can they count the bears records against Fitzroy it sounds a little odd doesn't it.