Review Winners? Losers?

[killerspud]

F W I W

I think GWS are the massive winners in trade week - Palmer was a bit of a hack,

Getting in Deledio means the back 6 is

Williams Davis Shaw

Deledio Patful Wilson

that is going to rebound like a brick wall and attack off half back with their guilt-edged midfield and their polished forward line has to make them premiership favourites next year.

I think Freo are also winners - Hill, Mc Carthy, Kersten, Hambling means they suddenly have a spine and a the Hill brothers on the wings - they will go alright (if they can get Bennell on the park they will go very alright)


i think Port, North and Geelong all had pretty average trade weeks


Hawthorn wasn't half as bad as people here are saying....

 

[CD Xbow]

Hawthorn are the biggest losers of this trade period and probably ever....

Basically going into the season 3 players short unless they draft recycled players in the national draft and that ends up another band aid.
Lost there B&F & 2nd B&F from 2016, these losses certainly offset any gains in 2017.
And with a number of older players on the list, if injuries hit them in 2017 they will slide dramatically.
However the bigger problem is going forward, Burgoyne & Gibson both likely to finish at end of 2017 and already no first or 2nd rounder to replace.
Desperate decisions this year will hurt them for next 5 to 8 years.[/QUOTE]
.

Perhaps you mean in 5 to 8 years, because this trade period we are doing a quick mid reload and plan to contend in 2017. Lot of young talent already waiting in the wings, a couple will step up this year. Be afraid.

 

[Sedat!]

F W I W

I think GWS are the massive winners in trade week - Palmer was a bit of a hack,

Getting in Deledio means the back 6 is

Williams Davis Shaw

Deledio Patful Wilson

that is going to rebound like a brick wall and attack off half back with their guilt-edged midfield and their polished forward line has to make them premiership favourites next year.

I think Freo are also winners - Hill, Mc Carthy, Kersten, Hambling means they suddenly have a spine and a the Hill brothers on the wings - they will go alright (if they can get Bennell on the park they will go very alright)


i think Port, North and Geelong all had pretty average trade weeks


Hawthorn wasn't half as bad as people here are saying....

Patful retired, but you forgot Haynes who is a jet.

 

[The Bear]

Lions were big winners in sending this message to Rockliff: "Nobody else wants you, pull your head in, join the team".

 

[aussierulesrules]

Very disappointed.

We've basically given ourselves the same draft penalties that Essendon got for doping just in order to get O'Meara.

Even if this guy, who still isn't running mind you, becomes the next Dangerfield, it takes more than 1 player to make a team and everybody else will be crap because they were drafted at pick 88 or lower in 2016 and 38 or lower in 2017.

Pretty much this.

Would have thought you guys would have learned from what happened at Geelong this year. They brought in Dangerfield- who then had one of the best individual seasons of recent times- but it wasn't enough to get even really close to winning a flag and I reckon it's hard to see how they're going to win one any time soon, as he just doesn't have enough quality support around him and it looks to me like you guys have pretty much gambled on JOM being as good as Dangerfield, so much have you given up for him.

Problem is of course that Danger was fully fit and firing. Jaeger on the other hand has a serious issue with his knee and hasn't played an AFL game for 2 years.

A huge gamble that I'm not even sure will be worth it if he gets back to full fitness and remains relatively injury free for the rest of his career.

 

[donbooger]

Given that O'Meara and Mitchell are 22 and 23 respectively I'm not sure how we are sacrificing the future.

Also our best two players were 34 and 31 so keeping them for the short term and the send off was nice for sentimentalists but not great future planning. While not your best players Enright and Bartel were more than serviceable with Enright getting an All-Australian - so why didn't you keep them??? Calling us losers seems a but harsh - only time will tell...

You have misread, I said secured there future, sacrifised the next two years. I bet you were excited about your 2017 midfield potential 2 weeks ago adding Omeara and Mitchell to it. Now you are left with a big unexpected hit losing your two best players. We will need to look back on your trades a in a few years, right now your 2017 hope was traded away, its a big loss.

Bartel wasn't that good and Enright we wanted to keep but he didn't want to play next year.

 

[Fatcat08]

Losers: Most of the Top VIC kids in the draft who hoped to stay in victoria

 

[master bate]

I can't speak on Vardy's 2016 because I don't follow the VFL, but I know he played some good footy a couple years back, and hasn't been recruited as a long term ruckman, just a support act for Lycett until Nic nat returns. I'd back the guidance of Cox and Naitanui to get the best out of him as a ruckman so long as he can stay on the park.

As for Mitchell, "He's an assistant coach who will attempt one more year." is just a stupid statement all round. He's been recruited as a player for atleast 1 season and said he may he may be open to play on beyond 2017. I don't think a reigning best and fairest of a side that finished in the top 4 has to "attempt" to play on, he'll just continue to do what he does and will make a more than handy addition to the west coast midfield. The guy is still a top 10-15 mid in the comp and could probably play on until he's 40 if he wanted, as he doesn't rely on speed or athleticism.

I don't know what our trades last year have to do with this year, or what you mean by dropping the ball but West coast had no real reason to be that interested in any of the players that fremantle traded in. Hamling and Kersten wouldn't get a game, We have enough wingers in Gaff, Jetta and Masten and Mccarthy has mental health problems and plays the same role that Darling plays better anyway. West coast were wanting to draft talented midfielders this year in a draft stacked with midfield talent, so trading out our picks for fringe key position players from other teams is pointless.

A change of scenery might help but google Vardy's VFL form. It's trash.

Mitchell might not rely on his speed but he still has to go contest to contest and has to track his opponent. I'm not convinced the combination of Priddis and Mitchell without a dominant ruckman will improve the side.

Jetta is a WAFL player and Masten isn't a very good outside mid. Brad Hill would be a good get for the Eagles but getting Jetta and Redden probably took the cap space and desire to trade away from him. McCarthy has issue but at his best he's far better than Darling. Hamling isn't a need but he could replace Schofield with a bit more development, if the salary cap space was there then I'd take him for pick 35 and move on McKenzie.

Either way, the Eagles made a grand final 2 years ago and won 16 games last year and haven't improved aside from bringing in a 34 year old who I really think has 1 year left. Maybe Mitchell will prove me wrong.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Losers: Most of the Top VIC kids in the draft who hoped to stay in Victoria

Most of em will be back in 3 years time.

 

[Cynic]

You have misread, I said secured there future, sacrifised the next two years. I bet you were excited about your 2017 midfield potential 2 weeks ago adding Omeara and Mitchell to it. Now you are left with a big unexpected hit losing your two best players. We will need to look back on your trades a in a few years, right now your 2017 hope was traded away, its a big loss.

Bartel wasn't that good and Enright we wanted to keep but he didn't want to play next year.

Our 2017 hope was non-existant to begin with. Our midfield was never going to be able to mix it with GWS & co.

 

[Prudster]

Pretty much this.

Would have thought you guys would have learned from what happened at Geelong this year. They brought in Dangerfield- who then had one of the best individual seasons of recent times- but it wasn't enough to get even really close to winning a flag and I reckon it's hard to see how they're going to win one any time soon, as he just doesn't have enough quality support around him and it looks to me like you guys have pretty much gambled on JOM being as good as Dangerfield, so much have you given up for him.

Problem is of course that Danger was fully fit and firing. Jaeger on the other hand has a serious issue with his knee and hasn't played an AFL game for 2 years.

A huge gamble that I'm not even sure will be worth it if he gets back to full fitness and remains relatively injury free for the rest of his career.

We're in a very different position to Geelong though. Guys like Rioli, Gunston, Breust, Rough, Birchall, Stratton, Frawley, and Smith are probably more support for JOM/Mitchell than what Geelong have to support Danger/Selwood. With that group, plus Vickery reaching a Hale level, Mitchell, JOM staying fit (which is obviously the big risk), maybe another semi-bigish name coming in, and some cheap role players, all of which is fairly reasonable i would have thought. Then add in our biggest asset, which is Clarko. That list is enough for him to make a competitive team. Is it going to be as good as the threepeat team? Probably not, but the current list has enough talent to think that adding in two super talented young midfielders gives us a good chance of contending in a few years.

You have misread, I said secured there future, sacrifised the next two years. I bet you were excited about your 2017 midfield potential 2 weeks ago adding Omeara and Mitchell to it. Now you are left with a big unexpected hit losing your two best players. We will need to look back on your trades a in a few years, right now your 2017 hope was traded away, its a big loss.

Bartel wasn't that good and Enright we wanted to keep but he didn't want to play next year.

It all comes down to whether you thought Hawthorn was a chance in 2017. The reality is that our midfield was torn apart in 2016, by GWS and WB especially. It's not even that the players weren't good enough, it's that the gamestyle that we play has been countered, and it's impossible for us to keep up with those gameplans when we are relying on slow, older players who aren't going to improve.

I don't think that Hawthorn were going to be a top 4 team in 2017. So we could either stick with what we had for 2017, then have Mitchell, Lewis, and potentially Hodge, Gibson, and Burgoyne retire and then decide to rebuild, or we could get started on it a year early when we have elite talent requesting a trade to us. We've gone from a middle of the road team in 2017 to a slightly worse middle of the road team with far more upside in 2018 and beyond. Two first rounders and a couple of seconds were not going to make any short term difference, and imo are less likely to be as impactful as JOM and Mitchell in terms of delivering us our next flag. A risk, no doubt, but without some truly elite level players added to our list, we were not going to be contending for a flag any time soon. Those draft picks were unlikely to get us that level of elite player, whereas a fit JOM can reach that level imo.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Losers: Most of the Top VIC kids in the draft who hoped to stay in victoria

Not to worry, they'll be back home within two years anyway.

 

[Fatcat08]

Most of em will be back in 3 years time.

Not to worry, they'll be back home within two years anyway.

Can you two work out which one it is between yourselves and let me know so I can book it in the calendar

 

[aussierulesrules]

We're in a very different position to Geelong though. Guys like Rioli, Gunston, Breust, Rough, Birchall, Stratton, Frawley, and Smith are probably more support for JOM/Mitchell than what Geelong have to support Danger/Selwood. With that group, plus Vickery reaching a Hale level, Mitchell, JOM staying fit (which is obviously the big risk), maybe another semi-bigish name coming in, and some cheap role players, all of which is fairly reasonable i would have thought. Then add in our biggest asset, which is Clarko. That list is enough for him to make a competitive team. Is it going to be as good as the threepeat team? Probably not, but the current list has enough talent to think that adding in two super talented young midfielders gives us a good chance of contending in a few years.

You are indeed in a different position to where Geelong were last year, as you're a lot higher up the ladder, but what is also true is that Geelong didn't lose the top 2 in their 2015 B&F to help get Dangerfield and co on board. They didn't even lose anyone from the top 9 of their B&F.

You guys on the other hand did lose the top 2 in the B&F from this past season and as such that took you from a team who went out in straight sets and added some real quality, to a team that went out in straight sets and then lost their best 2 for the year (plus another multi-premiership winning member of your best 22) and then added some real quality.

So from where I'm sitting, you guys fell a decent way short of a flag this year and then lost 3 of quality and added 3 of what I would say is similar quality (so maybe enough to have you finish in a similar position next year), yet you also have Hodge, Gibson and Burgoyne who look like they're just about cooked and who you may have to replace in 12 months time, yet you now don't have a 2017 first rounder to help you get any big trades done next year.

I'm sure you'll look to hit free agency really hard, but what happens if say Nat Fyfe agrees to come to you and Freo match your bid? If you thought it was hard yakka getting the JOM deal over the line, that will probably seem like a walk in the park compared to how trading for a Fyfe type could be, especially with only one first rounder to trade.

Like Geelong, I just see you guys trying to replace multiple "champions" with a much smaller number of "champions" and I'm far from convinced it's a wise strategy for either club and look forward to seeing how it all pans out, compared to clubs who build for a sustained premiership crack predominantly through the drafts.

 

[Prudster]

You are indeed in a different position to where Geelong were last year, as you're a lot higher up the ladder, but what is also true is that Geelong didn't lose the top 2 in their 2015 B&F to help get Dangerfield and co on board. They didn't even lose anyone from the top 9 of their B&F.

You guys on the other hand did lose the top 2 in the B&F from this past season and as such that took you from a team who went out in straight sets and added some real quality, to a team that went out in straight sets and then lost their best 2 for the year (plus another multi-premiership winning member of your best 22) and then added some real quality.

So from where I'm sitting, you guys fell a decent way short of a flag this year and then lost 3 of quality and added 3 of what I would say is similar quality (so maybe enough to have you finish in a similar position next year), yet you also have Hodge, Gibson and Burgoyne who look like they're just about cooked and who you may have to replace in 12 months time, yet you now don't have a 2017 first rounder to help you get any big trades done next year.

I'm sure you'll look to hit free agency really hard, but what happens if say Nat Fyfe agrees to come to you and Freo match your bid? If you thought it was hard yakka getting the JOM deal over the line, that will probably seem like a walk in the park compared to how trading for a Fyfe type could be, especially with only one first rounder to trade.

Like Geelong, I just see you guys trying to replace multiple "champions" with a much smaller number of "champions" and I'm far from convinced it's a wise strategy for either club and look forward to seeing how it all pans out, compared to clubs who build for a sustained premiership crack predominantly through the drafts.

No doubt that replacing Hodge, Gibson, and Burgoyne will be extremely difficult. But the thing is, our situation is not really any different to if we hadn't got JOM. Imagine if we kept SMitch and Lewis, still got TMitch and Vickery, but kept our picks instead of getting JOM. We still wouldn't be contenders in 2017, we would still have to replace Hodge/Burgoyne/Gibson, and we would now only have one replacement for SMitch/Lewis. One first rounder and two seconds will do very little to replace Hodge, Gibson, Burgoyne, and one of SMitch/Lewis.

And the problem here is that replacing those guys requires someone who can play at an elite level. What are the odds that a first round pick will get someone on that level, especially a mid-late first rounder (assuming we would finish mid table in 2017, maybe just sneaking into finals)? Now what are the odds that two seconds will get someone on that level? To put it as you did, finding a 'champion' with those picks is fairly unlikely, and probably requires at least 4 or 5 years of development. JOM has that elite talent, and if he can stay fit, hopefully replaces a champion, and does it far sooner than draft picks likely would.

The other side of this is that we're talking about replacing players who won three flags in a row. We're unlikely to be able to replace those players any time soon, but if we can mostly replace their contributions, we would still be able to contend, even if we're not the best team in it. We have a list that potentially only needs a few pieces, and a coach who, imo, doesn't need the best list in the league in order to have the best team in the league. Rejuvenate the list and get into the top 4 and anything can happen come finals time.

One final thought on this. When was the last time Hawthorn had access to an O'Meara level talent? Maybe Hodge? Roughy and Franklin? Maybe Rioli? Perhaps a little hard to judge pure talent, but i don't think any of those players were rated anywhere near as highly as O'Meara pre-draft, and certainly none had the impact in the first year or two that he did. When do you think is the next time Hawthorn will have access to a talent on that level? I'd suggest the only way we're doing that is via a top 5 draft pick (ie. finish way down the ladder), free agency, or a trade where we give up more than pick 10 + two second rounders. If we win a flag in say the next 5 years or so, it pays off handsomely. If we don't, O'Meara will hopefully be a piece we can completely rebuild the team around post-Rioli/Gunston/etc., which is a rebuild we were going to have to do even with the picks we gave up for him.

 

[Bicco]

MAYNE left and Collingwood picked him up.
Freo are winners and the Pies clear losers.

 

[Kenny_01]

I can't speak on Vardy's 2016 because I don't follow the VFL, but I know he played some good footy a couple years back, and hasn't been recruited as a long term ruckman, just a support act for Lycett until Nic nat returns. I'd back the guidance of Cox and Naitanui to get the best out of him as a ruckman so long as he can stay on the park.

As for Mitchell, "He's an assistant coach who will attempt one more year." is just a stupid statement all round. He's been recruited as a player for atleast 1 season and said he may he may be open to play on beyond 2017. I don't think a reigning best and fairest of a side that finished in the top 4 has to "attempt" to play on, he'll just continue to do what he does and will make a more than handy addition to the west coast midfield. The guy is still a top 10-15 mid in the comp and could probably play on until he's 40 if he wanted, as he doesn't rely on speed or athleticism.

I don't know what our trades last year have to do with this year, or what you mean by dropping the ball but West coast had no real reason to be that interested in any of the players that fremantle traded in. Hamling and Kersten wouldn't get a game, We have enough wingers in Gaff, Jetta and Masten and Mccarthy has mental health problems and plays the same role that Darling plays better anyway. West coast were wanting to draft talented midfielders this year in a draft stacked with midfield talent, so trading out our picks for fringe key position players from other teams is pointless.

You will change your tune by rd 2 next year re McCarthy and Darling. Jetta and Masten are hacks.

 

[gutsroy]

For those interested, Fox Footy podcast has a trade grades episode with Pelchen.

 

[doona]

For those interested, Fox Footy podcast has a trade grades episode with Pelchen.

Cheers

On Nexus 6P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[SCRAY72]

I dont understand whats so difficult for you. People can be happy for how they went in trade period. Good trading and drafting leads to a flag, like the one you just won was off the back of getting Boyd and great drafting. Does making yourself superior to all the "plebs" who are discussing and enjoying this petty draft period make you feel good?

Never thought of myself as superior just offering my views with a dose of sarcasm, Bigfooty style. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

 

[Gadzorks]

Losers: Most of the Top VIC kids in the draft who hoped to stay in victoria

Hope they remember that when their contact renewals are due.

 

[SCRAY72]

F W I W

I think GWS are the massive winners in trade week - Palmer was a bit of a hack,

Getting in Deledio means the back 6 is

Williams Davis Shaw

Deledio Patful Wilson

that is going to rebound like a brick wall and attack off half back with their guilt-edged midfield and their polished forward line has to make them premiership favourites next year.

I think Freo are also winners - Hill, Mc Carthy, Kersten, Hambling means they suddenly have a spine and a the Hill brothers on the wings - they will go alright (if they can get Bennell on the park they will go very alright)


i think Port, North and Geelong all had pretty average trade weeks


Hawthorn wasn't half as bad as people here are saying....

Patfull retired?

 

[Sarcoidevo]

What bit of "O'Meara hasnt played for 2 years as he has very serious chronic knee issues" that Hawks supporters dont understand?

 

[marty36]

What bit of "O'Meara hasnt played for 2 years as he has very serious chronic knee issues" that Hawks supporters dont understand?

It's a punt and they know it but what are the alternatives

 

[Prudster]

For those interested, Fox Footy podcast has a trade grades episode with Pelchen.

I wonder, do people respect the opinion of a guy like Pelchen? To me, his track record and opinion on list management ranks somewhere near Terry Wallace.

What bit of "O'Meara hasnt played for 2 years as he has very serious chronic knee issues" that Hawks supporters dont understand?

We understand it fine. We also understand that our medical staff have provided their professional opinions on it after examining it. The same medical staff who have kept Burgoyne on the park, despite the common opinion being he would be lucky to get two years at Hawthorn out of his knee. The same medical staff who okayed Ryan Burton's knee, who had also been out of the game for nearly two years, and who seems to be progressing extremely well (jury still out though). All of them different knee injuries, no doubt, but we trust out medical staff to make the correct decision, and they believe his knee will hold up.