Enough is Enough

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dean33 said:
this whole lost the players thing.. its a cop out for the players.

When do they decide they have lost faith in the coach?
When they don't hit a contest hard?
When they skirt the issue and take the easy option?
When they don't run hard enough to get to the next contest?
When they decide to be lazy and not follow their opponent up the ground?
Did he lose the players in the first half when they blew north out of the water or just the 2nd half when they were smashed?

Its time the blame lay at the feet of the players and the leadership group who are lazy and unaccountable.
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Agree. The club lacks leaders on and off the field. Players that will themselves to make something happen when the game is on the line. Players that you can rely on to get that contested ball, make that match winning tackle or play tight in defence to affect a crucial spoil. Other players rise when they see this occur. They can rely on them and themselves play taller as a result.
 

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thecotch said:
I'm guessing there's gonna be plenty of seats. We're playing like s**t and the season is over.
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Your lack of faith in the Richmond horde disturbs me greatly! We drew 40,125 against Fremantle last season in round 17, I doubt it will be much lower, maybe 35,000ish
 
Richthofen said:
Your lack of faith in the Richmond horde disturbs me greatly! We drew 40,125 against Fremantle last season in round 17, I doubt it will be much lower, maybe 35,000ish
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Our faith is being seriously challenged by this crop if players. It's just the way it is. We were a different team last year. Nothing to play for now.
 
Spanish_Fly said:
5 years for a coach is plenty, thats not knee jerk.

Who was the last Premiership coach that didnt at least make a Prelim in his first 5 years, can you even name one from the last 30 years? It just doesn't happen, you either have it or you don't. 5 years is ample time to find out if you have it
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Don't want to repeat myself but have a look at the last 32 years..... that is evidence enough....
 
The Rusty Trombone said:
This is a fantastic post but unfortunately when you have a coach that overseas the recruitment of players like Hampson and Thomas , loses games at the selection table and has been caught short so many times on match day then we should just thank our lucky stars that we have a stable club . Having a stable club with the board and the supporters on the same page doesn't mean you can't change an under performing coach it gives you the ability to improve and hire another person who is a better performer.

If this keeps going on membership will decrease, attendances will decline and people will stop caring. Hardwick has been given more support or equal support to any coach in the AFL and he's still scratching his head as to why he's having to sub a tall off at halftime every game.

We are strong we are united and we are in a fantastic financial position to make a play at a coach that can take us to the next level. All these players aren't responding to Hardwick but we have the cattle to be a very well drilled hard top 8 team. Another 2 drafts of talented kids and free agency under a new coach and we are up to our necks in finals.

I personally don't trust Hardwick anymore to make the right list management decisions at years end on what will be the most important draft we face since it's conception.
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Rusty, I agree DH has made mistakes and I believe he needs to develop his match-day coaching. No argument there. There have been some ordinary list decisions, none worse than Hampson IMO. However for the most part, the recycled players we have brought, have been brought in to fill a role.... some have done it well most of the time, some of them have done it for some of the time and some of them have done for a little of the time and then there is Hampson!

I just don't believe the way to fix this is to sack the coach. We've been down that road before....many times.... it doesn't work. IMO we need more coaching support for DH. We let go of Leppa and Campbo without replacing them (that is a board issue? Footy dept? bad work though). We need more quality to assist players with their development and match tactics. We could also replace our line coaches (some of) or shuffle them a bit at least. Our midfield seems powerless to stop teams with a run-on so maybe they need help with that aspect that the current midfield coach can't give them?

Players need to respond to whichever coach is in front of them, be it DH, a cow or Warwick Capper. The fact that they can't or won't is an indictment on their character, not the coach.... They are meant to be professionals, not bitchy girls who only do what the cool girl tells them to do (although the way we tackled after half time I do wonder). The tail should not wag the dog. The supporters need to realise this too..... Everytime we have bayed for blood in the last 20-30 years, we have set the club back in it's quest for the 11th premiership.... so too have the board's that have listened to them. Stability is a key, at RFC perhaps more than other clubs.... because we don't know what it looks like. I'd love the club to have the courage of it's convictions for the first time in my life and see the plan through.... but for the love of Richo.... get some expert help into our coaching setup.... Go after Voss, Lingy etc etc

Agree that the draft is important but I don't think we have gone too far wrong with our early picks when we have drafted them. I wouldn't want to be trading an early pick (even 2nd rounder) for a recycled though.... that would give me the shits!
 
Tigerbob said:
Us dimwit supporters have kept this club going through the most incompetent people at the club for the past three decades.

How ******* dare you have a go at our supporters who have given so much and been given ******* nothing.

You ******* apologist. Go suck up to the club and think you will get something from them. This club wouldn't have survived without us dimwits.

They have just pissed away more of my money and then asked for more.
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you are a member and supporter and for that the club is thankful but don't for one second think the club should listen to you about what direction to take next. That is what we have done consistently for the last 30 years and just continued cycle after cycle of new coach, new 5 year plan etc etc etc. Hardwick has had an awful year, every player on the list bar a couple have had a horrible year.. do we throw the baby out with the bathwater and start all over again? The club made the decision to extend his contract until end of 2016, i don't want him sacked this year unless we have paul roos lined up, no paul roos? let the man try and get us out of the s**t we are in without supporters stomping their feet yelling "if you don't listen to me I'll quit"
 
Spanish_Fly said:
2 wrongs don't make a right, because we made bad decisions to sack coaches prematurely 20 years ago does not necessarily make it right to keep a coach who quite clearly will never win a flag with this group.
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Nah, sorry. It wasn't 20 years, it's been for the last 32.... It's wrong.... we've never tried the alternative in that time.... this is the time. Hard work needed by all and sundry...
 
dean33 said:
you are a member and supporter and for that the club is thankful but don't for one second think the club should listen to you about what direction to take next. That is what we have done consistently for the last 30 years and just continued cycle after cycle of new coach, new 5 year plan etc etc etc. Hardwick has had an awful year, every player on the list bar a couple have had a horrible year.. do we throw the baby out with the bathwater and start all over again? The club made the decision to extend his contract until end of 2016, i don't want him sacked this year unless we have paul roos lined up, no paul roos? let the man try and get us out of the s**t we are in without supporters stomping their feet yelling "if you don't listen to me I'll quit"
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Spot on.... the last 32 years will all have been for nought if we go down the same path again....
 

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partycorolla said:
Rusty, I agree DH has made mistakes and I believe he needs to develop his match-day coaching. No argument there. There have been some ordinary list decisions, none worse than Hampson IMO. However for the most part, the recycled players we have brought, have been brought in to fill a role.... some have done it well most of the time, some of them have done it for some of the time and some of them have done for a little of the time and then there is Hampson!

I just don't believe the way to fix this is to sack the coach. We've been down that road before....many times.... it doesn't work. IMO we need more coaching support for DH. We let go of Leppa and Campbo without replacing them (that is a board issue? Footy dept? bad work though). We need more quality to assist players with their development and match tactics. We could also replace our line coaches (some of) or shuffle them a bit at least. Our midfield seems powerless to stop teams with a run-on so maybe they need help with that aspect that the current midfield coach can't give them?

Players need to respond to whichever coach is in front of them, be it DH, a cow or Warwick Capper. The fact that they can't or won't is an indictment on their character, not the coach.... They are meant to be professionals, not bitchy girls who only do what the cool girl tells them to do (although the way we tackled after half time I do wonder). The tail should not wag the dog. The supporters need to realise this too..... Everytime we have bayed for blood in the last 20-30 years, we have set the club back in it's quest for the 11th premiership.... so too have the board's that have listened to them. Stability is a key, at RFC perhaps more than other clubs.... because we don't know what it looks like. I'd love the club to have the courage of it's convictions for the first time in my life and see the plan through.... but for the love of Richo.... get some expert help into our coaching setup.... Go after Voss, Lingy etc etc

Agree that the draft is important but I don't think we have gone too far wrong with our early picks when we have drafted them. I wouldn't want to be trading an early pick (even 2nd rounder) for a recycled though.... that would give me the shits!
Click to expand...

The fact that the board decided not to replace Leppa and Campo makes it easier financially to replace Hardwick with a Coach that is up to the task, it's beyond match days now anyway , we've been losing at the selection table and have been brought in done by his woeful change of attitude and recycling mantra.

If I was in charge I'd identify the fact that when you sack a senior coach you usually have his assistants sitting around with contracts that need replacing also as the new coach wants to build a new team around him and this is an expensive exercise eg Ratten , Riley , Richardson , Williams when Malthouse came in . I think you make a fantastic point that we didn't replace Leppa and Cambo and if we do the maths now is the time to replace Hardwick and let the new coach interview the guys left . I reckon Ross Smith and Danny Daley and Tim Clarke will survive but the rest might not survive the cut.
 
It is not that we sack coach after coach because we don't really. We give coaches excessively long contracts and sit back saying this 5 year plan will work....

In an 18 team competition waiting 5 years to see results in the form of finals that 44% (previously 50%) of the competition play every year is setting yourself up to fail miserably.

3 year contracts should be the maximum at Tigerland for coaches irrespective of whether a rebuild is required or if the coach has just won a flag. There isn't a salary cap on coaches, and we are not a poor club, so the excuse of securing the coaches future is just a mismanagement of the clubs finances.

For a coach to be potentially given a 'free season' so to speak when their first 3 seasons were unsuccessful and even their first finals campaign was abysmal is just ridiculous. There has been every ounce of proof that the coaches game plan doesn't work, and he can't motivate his players, so why should we persist with this mediocrity when finals at this stage should not just be a hope but an expectation.

I for one will not be renewing my membership next year if the club chooses to retain the services of Damian Hardwick, in fact the absolute lack of contempt from the entire club given our absolute atrocious performance has made me question why I would bother throwing away my money when they seem more than content filling their pockets and offering nothing in return, not even a puff of smoke.

Get rid of Hardwick today I say, Get rid of everyone that is stopping this club from succeeding, demand success at all costs (except the illegal one) and don't accept anything less. If you want a change in the culture at Tigerland you have to be prepared to make tough decisions and set expected standards that have only been dreamed about in the past.

No one will care if I'm not a member next year, some will call me weak, but you can't claim the RFC as a charity reduction on your ITR and therefore I need more than pitiful excuses and a lack of authority at my football club.
 
partycorolla said:
Nah, sorry. It wasn't 20 years, it's been for the last 32.... It's wrong.... we've never tried the alternative in that time.... this is the time. Hard work needed by all and sundry...
Click to expand...

We haven't prematurely sacked a coach for around 17-18 years so all this talk of 32 years of wrong decisions in this area is garbage IMO.

I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure every Premiership coach in the last 30 years bar Thompson (who made a prelim) made a GF in their first 5 years as coach, most of them winning a flag. Do you think this is just coincidence? Do you actually think Hardwick will ever take us to a flag? How long do you think is long enough when all available evidence tells us 5 years is plenty?
 
thecotch said:
Our faith is being seriously challenged by this crop if players. It's just the way it is. We were a different team last year. Nothing to play for now.
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yes, but if you have followed Richmond for along while, you will understand that we don't pack it in as supporters just because we are shite.
 
docko911 said:
It is not that we sack coach after coach because we don't really. We give coaches excessively long contracts and sit back saying this 5 year plan will work....

In an 18 team competition waiting 5 years to see results in the form of finals that 44% (previously 50%) of the competition play every year is setting yourself up to fail miserably.

3 year contracts should be the maximum at Tigerland for coaches irrespective of whether a rebuild is required or if the coach has just won a flag. There isn't a salary cap on coaches, and we are not a poor club, so the excuse of securing the coaches future is just a mismanagement of the clubs finances.

For a coach to be potentially given a 'free season' so to speak when their first 3 seasons were unsuccessful and even their first finals campaign was abysmal is just ridiculous. There has been every ounce of proof that the coaches game plan doesn't work, and he can't motivate his players, so why should we persist with this mediocrity when finals at this stage should not just be a hope but an expectation.

I for one will not be renewing my membership next year if the club chooses to retain the services of Damian Hardwick, in fact the absolute lack of contempt from the entire club given our absolute atrocious performance has made me question why I would bother throwing away my money when they seem more than content filling their pockets and offering nothing in return, not even a puff of smoke.

Get rid of Hardwick today I say, Get rid of everyone that is stopping this club from succeeding, demand success at all costs (except the illegal one) and don't accept anything less. If you want a change in the culture at Tigerland you have to be prepared to make tough decisions and set expected standards that have only been dreamed about in the past.

No one will care if I'm not a member next year, some will call me weak, but you can't claim the RFC as a charity reduction on your ITR and therefore I need more than pitiful excuses and a lack of authority at my football club.
Click to expand...

Been done before.... see previous 32 years for results. Sorry mate, we've been down that road so many times it's not funny. I know the outcome but I'd love to see the alternative for once.... actually sticking with something... maybe making the tough decisions on players rather than coaches for once... yeah that would be nice.

I'll be a member until I can't afford to do it any more. The club owes me nothing....I watch them, I care about them, they make or break my weekend but without them, life would be worse.
 
docko911 said:
It is not that we sack coach after coach because we don't really. We give coaches excessively long contracts and sit back saying this 5 year plan will work....

In an 18 team competition waiting 5 years to see results in the form of finals that 44% (previously 50%) of the competition play every year is setting yourself up to fail miserably.

3 year contracts should be the maximum at Tigerland for coaches irrespective of whether a rebuild is required or if the coach has just won a flag. There isn't a salary cap on coaches, and we are not a poor club, so the excuse of securing the coaches future is just a mismanagement of the clubs finances.

For a coach to be potentially given a 'free season' so to speak when their first 3 seasons were unsuccessful and even their first finals campaign was abysmal is just ridiculous. There has been every ounce of proof that the coaches game plan doesn't work, and he can't motivate his players, so why should we persist with this mediocrity when finals at this stage should not just be a hope but an expectation.

I for one will not be renewing my membership next year if the club chooses to retain the services of Damian Hardwick, in fact the absolute lack of contempt from the entire club given our absolute atrocious performance has made me question why I would bother throwing away my money when they seem more than content filling their pockets and offering nothing in return, not even a puff of smoke.

Get rid of Hardwick today I say, Get rid of everyone that is stopping this club from succeeding, demand success at all costs (except the illegal one) and don't accept anything less. If you want a change in the culture at Tigerland you have to be prepared to make tough decisions and set expected standards that have only been dreamed about in the past.

No one will care if I'm not a member next year, some will call me weak, but you can't claim the RFC as a charity reduction on your ITR and therefore I need more than pitiful excuses and a lack of authority at my football club.
Click to expand...

Brilliant post!!!!
 
People saying dimma is a terrible coach, not doing enough from the coaches box i feel is just an easy to say and pointless excuse! watching the game on tv, a stat came up, it was probably after norths 4th or 5th goal, it was possessions this quarter north in the 70's to richmond 28, please all you that claim dimma is such a terrible coach, enlighten me on what he can do as a coach when our players can't even ******* win the ball! he can't send more blokes in to the centre bounce, he tries different players in there, doesn't help when the umpires gift the opposition 2 early goals to get there confidence up as well! all responsibility is on the players for there second half performance and for this terrible year! sacking dimma isn't going to automatically put us back in finals contention! and saying brendon gale needs to start copping heat! seriously what a stupid comment! clears 5 million of debt bleeds yellow and black! all responsibility is on the players only martin and astbury have made any real improvement this year! everyone else as gone backwards or stagnated! this year is a right off and will only be good in finding out if some young players will be up to standard eg dea, miles and the rest!
 
Spanish_Fly said:
We haven't prematurely sacked a coach for around 17-18 years so all this talk of 32 years of wrong decisions in this area is garbage IMO.

I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure every Premiership coach in the last 30 years bar Thompson (who made a prelim) made a GF in their first 5 years as coach, most of them winning a flag. Do you think this is just coincidence? Do you actually think Hardwick will ever take us to a flag? How long do you think is long enough when all available evidence tells us 5 years is plenty?
Click to expand...

Define prematurely.... TW didn't see out his contract, it was announced Frawley wasn't continuing about halfway through his last year. Giesch got sacked after not that many games when ironically it was the fans who almost demanded he be appointed after 5 games at the end of 97.... when he was caretaker coach after ummm Walls got sacked.

Northey was the only one who left of his own accord, due to the fact we wouldn't give him an increase after he got us to the finals for the first time in 13 years.... KB, etc etc etc

Sorry at RFC we've seen the answer to the question 'should we sack the coach' over and over again. What happens after we sack the coach? The players get 3 years of 'free time' as we rebuild (again) before slight improvement, a finals appearance (maybe) and then we have a poor season, sack the coach and start all over gain. The evidence at RFC is there for all to see. No-one has seen what happens if you stick to the plan, make players accountable (and coaches can keep coaching for the future, playing the right kids and not coaching for the careers). I want to see DH play Lennon, Helbig, Batch, Arnot, maybe even Elton and McBean to see what they have.... not coach for meaningless wins in 2014 to try and save his job. That will achieve nothing for nobody.

Now, if we were to have another season like this next season, I would move to reconsider but lets see what the footy dept, coaches and players and also the board have learned from the first season since 2009 where we have gone backwards.... Name the last coach to get us improvement over 4 consecutive seasons before DH?
 
avengers said:
watching the game on tv, a stat came up, it was probably after norths 4th or 5th goal, it was possessions this quarter north in the 70's to richmond 28, please all you that claim dimma is such a terrible coach, enlighten me on what he can do as a coach when our players can't even ******* win the ball! he can't send more blokes in to the centre bounce, he tries different players in there, doesn't help when the umpires gift the opposition 2 early goals to get there confidence up as well! all responsibility is on the players for there second half performance
Click to expand...

I agree to some degree with your point here, problem is that its not just an isolated 20 minutes here and there throughout the season that's the issue. The odd game, the odd quarter can be blamed on the players. The whole season is without doubt on the coach.
 
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