Society/Culture Violence in Society; Who is to blame?

[cartwright]

Please point out where I said anything about ignoring anything. How is anything being ignored? I assume that these 52 people all got locked behind bars for a very long time. I don't see how an issue so common sense can be addressed. Everyone knows that they aren't supposed to kill their partner.

How do you suggest the problem of domestic violence can be addressed?

You said that you can't see how domestic violence can be addressed, so I asked what is the alternative, do we ignore it?

Addressing domestic violence doesn't have one answer. Its through education, stopping cycle of abuse, adequate assistance, (housing, health services), harsher punishments.

 

[AngryRanga]

You said that you can't see how domestic violence can be addressed, so I asked what is the alternative, do we ignore it?

Addressing domestic violence doesn't have one answer. Its through education, stopping cycle of abuse, adequate assistance, (housing, health services), harsher punishments.

On issues, I think there is more of a scale than just address or ignore. We are kind of getting caught on different interpretations of a word, and I'll stop arguing that point. I agree with how you would address it though, I think adequate assistance would be the most effective.

 

[fleabitten]

We say we publicly hate wife beaters and rapists, and as a "society" that is true.

But individually Australian men are not actually putting these opinions into practice. That's why feminism is still vital.

Overwhelmingly, yes they are. Of course they are. How many men do you know that beat their wives? Most of us do not and never would.

The only guy I know that has beaten a woman was also beaten by that woman. They had a very volatile relationship that erupted into violence on occasion, usually with her throwing the first punch. He usually came off worse than her because he would at least show some restraint while she would use whatever she could get her hands on to inflict as much damage as possible. I know a couple of guys (including myself) that have been physically attacked by their partner, but because we live in a society that frowns on men hitting women, we did not strike back.

How many men do you know that would organize a posse and kick the living s**t out of a neighbour/friend/relative who did beat his wife? I know of several stories of guys or groups of guys taking care of a ******* who hit a daughter or sister of theirs (I didn't know the abusers in those instances, I just heard about what happened to them at the hands of other men).

It's like every other feminist issue. Yes, there is something to it and some things that need to be improved or changed, but the way they frame the whole story is dishonest and portrays the entire male gender as potential rapists/abusers/pigs and the entire female gender as innocent angels/victims. And they are happy for the same inequalities that they are complaining about to be perpetuated against men. They don't want equality, they want a special set of rules and protections that will always have the woman come out on top, regardless of the specifics of the situation.

 

[cartwright]

It's like every other feminist issue. Yes, there is something to it and some things that need to be improved or changed, but the way they frame the whole story is dishonest and portrays the entire male gender as potential rapists/abusers/pigs and the entire female gender as innocent angels/victims. And they are happy for the same inequalities that they are complaining about to be perpetuated against men. They don't want equality, they want a special set of rules and protections that will always have the woman come out on top, regardless of the specifics of the situation.

Please stop with the hysterics.

 

[fleabitten]

Please stop with the hysterics.

They also pick out a few words from reasoned arguments and avoid answering any legitimate questions by derailing the discussion.

 

[The Coup]

Overwhelmingly, yes they are. Of course they are. How many men do you know that beat their wives? Most of us do not and never would.

The only guy I know that has beaten a woman was also beaten by that woman. They had a very volatile relationship that erupted into violence on occasion, usually with her throwing the first punch. He usually came off worse than her because he would at least show some restraint while she would use whatever she could get her hands on to inflict as much damage as possible. I know a couple of guys (including myself) that have been physically attacked by their partner, but because we live in a society that frowns on men hitting women, we did not strike back.

How many men do you know that would organize a posse and kick the living s**t out of a neighbour/friend/relative who did beat his wife? I know of several stories of guys or groups of guys taking care of a ******* who hit a daughter or sister of theirs (I didn't know the abusers in those instances, I just heard about what happened to them at the hands of other men).

It's like every other feminist issue. Yes, there is something to it and some things that need to be improved or changed, but the way they frame the whole story is dishonest and portrays the entire male gender as potential rapists/abusers/pigs and the entire female gender as innocent angels/victims. And they are happy for the same inequalities that they are complaining about to be perpetuated against men. They don't want equality, they want a special set of rules and protections that will always have the woman come out on top, regardless of the specifics of the situation.

Your personal anecdote doesn't stop the fact more than one woman (at 1.35 so far) has died a week at the hands of her partner this year.

 

[fleabitten]

Your personal anecdote doesn't stop the fact more than one woman (at 1.35 so far) has died a week at the hands of her partner this year.

Your statistic doesn't change the fact that 99.9999% of men did not kill their partner and probably only a fraction lower than that would wholeheartedly condemn any man striking a woman.

There are more than a thousand motor vehicle thefts every week in Australia. Does that mean that Australia has a culture of car theft? Or does it just mean that there are people who steal cars, but most people do not steal cars and think stealing cars is wrong?

 

[The Coup]

Your statistic doesn't change the fact that 99.9999% of men did not kill their partner and probably only a fraction lower than that would wholeheartedly condemn any man striking a woman.

There are more than a thousand motor vehicle thefts every week in Australia. Does that mean that Australia has a culture of car theft? Or does it just mean that there are people who steal cars, but most people do not steal cars and think stealing cars is wrong?

I don't think you read my post correctly the first time around. Please go and read again.

At no point did I say all Australian men beat women. The fact your victim complex is so strong is what led you to that conclusion.

 

[Floor Pie]

I don't think you read my post correctly the first time around. Please go and read again.

At no point did I say all Australian men beat women. The fact your victim complex is so strong is what led you to that conclusion.

Great display pic, will copy!

 

[cartwright]

They also pick out a few words from reasoned arguments and avoid answering any legitimate questions by derailing the discussion.

I will address the point of your post, (the rest was hysterical rubbish), where you state that when men are struck by their partner, that you didnt strike back because you were taught not to.

I would say that who ever was being struck should get themselves and their children out of said situation, and call the police immediately. No good will come out of hitting back, regardless of gender.

 

[scon]

They also pick out a few words from reasoned arguments and avoid answering any legitimate questions by derailing the discussion.

Which part of all feminists" portray the entire male gender as potential rapists/abusers/pigs and the entire female gender as innocent angels/victims. And they are happy for the same inequalities that they are complaining about to be perpetuated against men. They don't want equality, they want a special set of rules and protections that will always have the woman come out on top, regardless of the specifics of the situation."is reasoned argument??

 

[fleabitten]

I don't think you read my post correctly the first time around. Please go and read again.

At no point did I say all Australian men beat women. The fact your victim complex is so strong is what led you to that conclusion.

I think you've lost track of what we're discussing here. I didn't say that YOU said anything. I don't know who you are and haven't paid any particular attention to anything you've said. I don't any of you people or your exact positions on the issues. I'm talking about the feminists that I encounter online on a daily basis. I was talking about how we can't have honest discussions on most feminist issues because too many feminists resort to hyperbole, distorted statistics and studies and often just straight up lies.

Often the issues they are concerned with are real, but the dishonesty spoils the conversation. With domestic abuse and rape, it's the portrayal of it as a systemic thing, where our culture supposedly permits it to go on and that women are always the victims and never the primary aggressors. That's why your one liner with a statistic was a pointless contribution. However many deaths there have been this year, it's too many. One is too many. I don't know anybody who would dispute that. It doesn't show that we live in a culture that accepts male violence against females.

 

[The Coup]

Stop encountering everything online so much then.

And yeah I thought when you quoted me you were addressing me, I'm a bit of a narcissist like that.

 

[fleabitten]

I will address the point of your post, (the rest was hysterical rubbish), where you state that when men are struck by their partner, that you didnt strike back because you were taught not to.

I would say that who ever was being struck should get themselves and their children out of said situation, and call the police immediately. No good will come out of hitting back, regardless of gender.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

She's my ex, so obviously I did remove myself. I also took the children and raised them by myself for 7 years before re-marrying.

I never called the police though because I did not think there was any point.

Also, well done on discarding everything I said to refute the fact that our society condones violence against women as "hysterical rubbish". Typical feminist tactics.

Even the most hyperbolic part of my post ("portrays the entire male gender as potential rapists/abusers/pigs and the entire female gender as innocent angels/victims") is something I will stand by when talking about extreme feminism.

 

[The Coup]

I liked your post for removing yourself and the children from the situation, definitely the right thing to do, good job.

Also think its preferable if people can resolve their differences without the police (I had to call the cops on an ex once, it wasn't pleasant), would have liked it twice if possible.

 

[fleabitten]

Stop encountering everything online so much then.

And yeah I thought when you quoted me you were addressing me, I'm a bit of a narcissist like that.

We were having a discussion about feminism?? I don't know your personal positions on everything and I wasn't arguing with you personally. Obviously there's not much point engaging with you at all.

 

[The Coup]

We were having a discussion about feminism?? I don't know your personal positions on everything and I wasn't arguing with you personally. Obviously there's not much point engaging with you at all.

You made a huge rant that I ignored mostly because it was based on a false premise. I made a statement in response to it though, because there was a false premise present so I corrected that.

We don't need to engage on that issue any more than we already have.

 

[fleabitten]

I liked your post for removing yourself and the children from the situation, definitely the right thing to do, good job.

Also think its preferable if people can resolve their differences without the police (I had to call the cops on an ex once, it wasn't pleasant), would have liked it twice if possible.

Okay cool. So it is possible for us to actually talk.

Sorry, but too often I get into these conversations and it's like beating your head against a wall. I'm a left-leaning, woman-friendly dude who has raised two daughters by myself and worked in several traditionally female-dominated fields. If I can't have a conversation with feminists without wanting to hang myself, then what chance does someone with more conservative views have? And if there's no discussion, then there's no progress.

 

[The Coup]

Okay cool. So it is possible for us to actually talk.

Sorry, but too often I get into these conversations and it's like beating your head against a wall. I'm a left-leaning, woman-friendly dude who has raised two daughters by myself and worked in several traditionally female-dominated fields. If I can't have a conversation with feminists without wanting to hang myself, then what chance does someone with more conservative views have? And if there's no discussion, then there's no progress.

I'm just saying that what you read online that is presented as "feminism" is often designed, deliberately, to be stupid in content to gain clicks. It sets off something in the reader's brain where they can see the article is horseshit, and they see the word feminism in the title - so they deduce that all feminsim is stupid, and continue to click the links and pay the company through advertising. Its a business model, not a philosophical debate. Its designed to make you feel under siege. For a guy like you has lived a bit, its probably bordering on offensive.

The reality is "feminism" quite literally just means equality between the sexes in all forms of public life and equal respect given to all people.

Try using the Murdoch Blocker plugin for Chrome, you will see a lot less shitty clickbait articles. Or (and this is advice I wish I was better at following myself from time to time) just take a break from the internet. You don't appear to be one of the "MRA's" as such, or involved in their echo chamber. That's a positive thing imo.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

It's like every other feminist issue. Yes, there is something to it and some things that need to be improved or changed, but the way they frame the whole story is dishonest and portrays the entire male gender as potential rapists/abusers/pigs and the entire female gender as innocent angels/victims. And they are happy for the same inequalities that they are complaining about to be perpetuated against men. They don't want equality, they want a special set of rules and protections that will always have the woman come out on top, regardless of the specifics of the situation.

Who does this?

 

[fleabitten]

I work online and part of that is involvement in social media, so taking a break from the internet isn't entirely possible. Unfortunately, it's not just the "clickbait" stuff that I'm talking about either. I have connections to a lot of young Americans through music, mostly college students or recent graduates, and a lot of their opinions are extreme as well. And they don't handle discussion very well.

I've also been involved in several events for International Women's Day over the last few years due to my wife's job. The International part was awesome as all these migrant women told great stories of the things they have overcome. But every time some middle-class white Australian woman had a turn to speak, she spouted half-truths and flat out lies and was blatantly sexist.

Then what got me ranting in here was The Age article. I don't read newspapers but I also thought that was one of the better ones we had here. It added to the feeling that this kind of double standard extremism is leaking into the mainstream.

 

[The Coup]

I work online and part of that is involvement in social media, so taking a break from the internet isn't entirely possible. Unfortunately, it's not just the "clickbait" stuff that I'm talking about either. I have connections to a lot of young Americans through music, mostly college students or recent graduates, and a lot of their opinions are extreme as well. And they don't handle discussion very well.

I've also been involved in several events for International Women's Day over the last few years due to my wife's job. The International part was awesome as all these migrant women told great stories of the things they have overcome. But every time some middle-class white Australian woman had a turn to speak, she spouted half-truths and flat out lies and was blatantly sexist.

Then what got me ranting in here was The Age article. I don't read newspapers but I also thought that was one of the better ones we had here. It added to the feeling that this kind of double standard extremism is leaking into the mainstream.

I think there are things men can definitely point to and ask to change.

Male circumcision is one. Female circumcision is classed as a serious assault in Australia, no matter what the reason.

Why the difference for men having their utensils mutilated without consent?

But you don't need to attack feminsim to move towards better social expectations for men. We have the power collectively to change things (all people) and very few feminists I've met would be against men asking for better procedures and services to support men through the family courts system, for example (because that lack of support probably is a major factor in pushing the rare individual men on the fringes of society to commit horrible crimes against their children as "punishment" against their former partner).

There will always be idiots out there. I watched John Pilger present 'War on Democracy' in Melbourne for the first time, and there was time for QnA afterwards which was really exciting to me. This great documentary about war and media and the echo chamber etc. that we'd just watched, and guess what the first question from the crowd was:

"How can you be friends with that rapist Julian Assange?"

For about 99% of the people present, this was a stupid, inappropriate and fundamentally dishonest question - more importantly it had nothing to do with the two hour film we'd just watched.

What did Pilger do? He responded genuinely, told her why she was wrong on a number of fronts and took the next question. Because if you agree with democracy, you have to treat the idiots with respect too - this is hard for me personally but I'm working on it - you can still tell people they're wrong without being personally affronted by how wrong they are.

 

[cartwright]

Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

She's my ex, so obviously I did remove myself. I also took the children and raised them by myself for 7 years before re-marrying.

I never called the police though because I did not think there was any point.

Great that you removed yourself.
you didn't report it, for whatever reason. This is half the issue with understanding statistics in regards to violence against men in the home.
However, both genders under report.

Also, well done on discarding everything I said to refute the fact that our society condones violence against women as "hysterical rubbish". Typical feminist tactics.

Even the most hyperbolic part of my post ("portrays the entire male gender as potential rapists/abusers/pigs and the entire female gender as innocent angels/victims") is something I will stand by when talking about extreme feminism.

So now its extreme feminism. Before it was "every other feminist issue".

 

[fleabitten]

So now its extreme feminism. Before it was "every other feminist issue".

And I admitted to some hyperbole with the original comment.

 

[romeoh]

A couple of things there that I have an issue with.

1. We should be aiming for equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. Are single women less wealthy because of discrimination or because of their own career choices? What were the most common professions of each gender in this study? If they're doing the same work for the same hours with the same qualifications and getting paid less, then yeah that's a problem. I don't think that's the case.

2. Yes, women are more often victims of domestic violence (though I'm not sure the numbers are as one-sided as we're led to believe) but support services are almost 100% for women. It's a serious problem but it's being addressed. Men who are known to hit women are reviled by their peers and women who are known to be victims have access to plenty of support and have the sympathy of all decent people. This is not true when you flip the genders around. Male victims have almost no support and are laughed at or ignored (if they even have the courage to speak up). Female abusers are punished much more lightly, if at all.

As for the circles that I move in, I'm mostly referring to my online life. My real life circle is mostly just my wife, my daughters and my mother. And none of them are feminists, they're just smart, strong females who don't let their gender stop them from doing what they want to do with their lives. My ex was also a strong female (not so smart though) who had anger management issues and would occasionally throw things, whack me over the head with things and threaten me with knives.

Obviously women are not more stupid, or less motivated than men so their career choices, if that explains the discrepancy, are telling us something aren't they.
Ken Lay on radio yesterday seemed to be suggesting that if the figures are a bit skewed, its doing females a disservice. And that is because the women who are violent towards men are often using violence as self -defence. ( hence the assumption can be made that the violence is generally initiated by the males)
You can hardly use personal anecdotes to validate, or otherwise, your theories.
A feminist is surely just someone who expects equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity etc. No need to throw all people with feminist views into the extreme group. I would suggest that in fact the females in your life are feminists because the values of it are as you outline.