What is a pass mark for Essendon in 2015?

[Beer n Skittles]

I actually think that Mackie is protected by better defenders around him, but he's better than Dempsey IMO. His rebounding and foot skills are a bit better and he gets more of the ball.

Yeah Taylor really is outstanding at helping out teammates. But Mackie is still better than Dempsey defensively, plus Mackie is a clever footballer & Dempsey is a pretty silly one.

 

[PatrickBateman]

You finished fifth - we finished seventh; not that big a gap.

Geelong finished 5th in 2014, really? Better check that champ.

Want to talk gaps? You only won 1 more game than the team that finished 11th, Geelong won 5 more games than Essendon.

Eh? Fletcher is the only one mentioned unlikely to be playing in five years. What the hell are you on about re: 10+ years..... what a bizarre comment with no basis in fact.

History tells us the contenders finish top 4, how many times in the last 10 years has Essendon?

Why is that a wonder? Essendon did pretty well to restrict sides, the issue they had was scoring - thats fairly common knowledge. On four occasions they were beaten by sides who had scored less than 85pts, and on another five occasions managed to win with less than that themselves.

Essendon looked good in patches in 2014 like many sides did. There's obvious weaknesses in the team, losing one of the best rucks in the league and Watson another year older isn't seemingly being accounted for in 2015 from what I can see.

The TEAM conceded less than Geelong, thus your comment is not only factually incorrect, but also fails the common sense test.

A couple of things I've noticed a fair few Geelong supporters just don't seem to be getting:

1) You are not the elite, super side you were several years ago. You are in fact relatively average (like a lot of clubs) in many areas of the game. And as an average side, you will be surpassed by other average sides (like Essendon) in some areas of the game.

2) You currently have nine players on your list over 30, and FIVE of those guys were in your top 10 at B&F - your list is in serious decline. Not that it is your 'fault', the system is designed to do that to successful sides. The only thing keeping you competitive are players that were superstars in a super side nearing the ends of their careers.

I'm not going to argue the point we're likely to slide as a club... When you reach the top of the mountain, it's all downhill. I will agree with anyone that we shouldn't have finished top 4, our players underperformed for most of the year, intensity / work rate was rubbish. Our intensity in finals was embarrassing, hence Selwood calling out those (Kelly, Enright, Johnson, Mackie, etc) who showed that they clearly aren't bothered to match other teams for effort in finals.

Geelong actually looks better to me as a team in 2015, but we'll still probably slide out of the top 4. We only got there last year because no one was good enough to knock us out. Most of the senior players CBF matching work rate with the youngsters anymore.

 

[Jade]

Geelong finished 5th in 2014, really? Better check that champ.

You didn't finish top 4.

The top 4 sides were Hawthorn, Sydney, Port and North.

History tells us the contenders finish top 4, how many times in the last 10 years has Essendon?

We haven't nor have I predicted us to finish top 4. Geelong also did not finish top 4.

I'm not going to argue the point we're likely to slide as a club... When you reach the top of the mountain, it's all downhill. I will agree with anyone that we shouldn't have finished top 4,

You haven't finished top of the mountain for three years now, and you also did not finish top 4.

Geelong actually looks better to me as a team in 2015, but we'll still probably slide out of the top 4. We only got there last year because no one was good enough to knock us out. Most of the senior players CBF matching work rate with the youngsters anymore.

You can't slide out of the top 4, you weren't there in 2014.

 

[PatrickBateman]

You didn't finish top 4.

The top 4 sides were Hawthorn, Sydney, Port and North.



We haven't nor have I predicted us to finish top 4. Geelong also did not finish top 4.



You haven't finished top of the mountain for three years now, and you also did not finish top 4.



You can't slide out of the top 4, you weren't there in 2014.

Lol. Irrelevant, because...

Finishing top 4 gives you obviously the best opportunity to contend. Who has finished outside and won? Sydney in '05 perhaps? Any others since the top 8 was devised? Don't think so. Essendon were still a mile off Geelong in 2014, which is all this is about, despite our differing point of view of ladder position V finals position.

I said that Essendon wasn't a genuine contender, which you deemed a "bizarre comment". Now you're saying they're no chance anyway?

I agree by the way, bottom 4 for Essendon is far more likely in fact.

 

[Jade]

Who has finished outside and won? Sydney in '05 perhaps? Any others since the top 8 was devised? Don't think so.

Second AND third failures of fact in one post, impressive.

1. Geelong did not finish top 4 in 2014.
2. Adelaide won the flag in 1998 after qualifying outside the top 4.
3. Sydney won the flag in '05 after qualifying third.

 

[theflea]

No problem.

For a start (and the easiest to reference) is Geelong conceded more than Essendon in 2014. Simple numbers say that teams scored more against Geelong than they did against Essendon.

Again, going for the 'easy' points, Hooker was named AA - no Geelong player was named in defence (although for sake of fairness, I generally don't consider an AA selection as something to point to).

Tall defenders, I rate Taylor, but I don't think anyone could seriously rate him above Hooker. But we also have Hurley (both Hurley and Hooker are rated in the top 10 KPD via AFL ratings), Carlisle if need be and of course Fletcher at a stretch for a KPD. You guys have Rivers and Lonergan as recognised KPD - I think their is little doubt we 'outgun' the Cats for KPDs.

As for smaller defenders, I reckon thats closer. Hibberd is the best player from both sides. Yes, better than Enright. Kelly I think has Bags covered, Mackie and Demps are about level; and then you question whether or not Fletcher should be included here (despite his height he's played closer to a small defender the last few years). If you still had Varcoe I'd probably give you the edge.

Just a further note on Fletcher, if you elect to not include him as a small defender, you have to name him a tall, which widens the quality difference between the two sides. Personally I consider him a 'small' nowadays.

Essendon has three players (Hibberd, Fletcher, Hurley) that generate more rebound 50s than any Geelong player.

Where are these published?

 

[Jade]

Where are these published?

AFL website mate, take em with a grain of salt though - like all ratings system they are highly subjective.

 

[Bosun]

Second AND third failures of fact in one post, impressive.

1. Geelong did not finish top 4 in 2014.
2. Adelaide won the flag in 1998 after qualifying outside the top 4.
3. Sydney won the flag in '05 after qualifying third.

Geelong finished 3rd on 17 wins after the HA season, what are you on about?

 

[Foxx1]

U wot m8?

His 'one dimension' is consistently shutting down opposition forwards and intercepting opposition forward entries - AA, 2nd in B&F and generally regarded as amongst the top handful of KPDs in the game - what a moronic post.



Horseshit. By all accounts had a pretty solid year in 2014. He's not a superstar (oh wait no, this is BigFooty where everyone has to be) and is fringe 22 at Essendon at zero cost.



And here is where your post turns to total excrement. Would be starting in most sides in the league.



Do you even watch footy? Up until last year you could question his OFF field commitment, but he;s consistently been a work horse ON field.



Fremantle and Sydney conceded less than Essendon. Hawthorns scoring prowess masks the fact that its defense is very good, not outstanding, and Geelong is just a flat out no - watch a game some time.

will do. 2014 Grand Final is in the DVD player already. Perhaps I've been spoilt mainly watching Hawthorn games, you just see less clangers.

Dude it's just my opinion, no need to have a ******* fit over it. Myself and I'm sure some others who love footy don't necessarily think AA means that much so in the case of Hooker I think the so called "experts" over rated him in 2014, as I said its my humble opinion. I may be wrong but it's just one mans view.

It's a ******* opinion blog man, take a chill pill. My post was not moronic at all it was based on what I think of Essendons back line in relation to someone saying they were potentially the best in the league, I don't believe that to be anywhere near the case, so what! Too add to that I didn't say anyone has to be a superstar so what's with that line? Some kind of pent up issue? Weird.


Your right about Bagley he might get a gig on "most clubs lists" he would only be depth at other clubs I think and that was my point, he's not that great a defender, You disagree as always and that's fine.

Anyway I just don't think the Dons backline is that awesome and I think it has some issues, it's no big deal.

 

[Jade]

Geelong finished 3rd on 17 wins after the HA season, what are you on about?

And what was their first allocated draft pick before they traded it off? Geelong finished FIFTH. We don't stop the season after the H&A games, if we did Sydney would currently be celebrating a flag (and s**t, my boys would have three in a row from 1999-2001).

They are NOT a top four side, and neither are Fremantle. Port Adelaide and North Melbourne, along with the grand finalists, are top four sides - they EARNED that recognition.

 

[gopies1981]

Essendon must win a final. If essendon are found to be not guilty by asada which I think will not happen then they will finish anywhere between 4-10! They are not in the same league as hawthorn, Sydney and port. They will be fighting for 4th spot with. Free, Geelong, north melbourne and Richmond. Only problem is they are not good enough to win a premiership and when will start declining by 2017 when Goddard, Watson, Cooney, fletcher, chapman have retired and the Suns and Giants will be prime for the next 5 years to dominate.

 

[Always Ballin]

Look.

I feel as though this Bombers squad has been on the cusp of elite for a few years now.

I'd expect them to make the 8.

Top 4 might be pushing it, with the likes of Hawthorn, Port, West Coast, Sydney and North.

A lot of talented squads.

 

[boncer34]

Geelong finished 3rd on 17 wins after the HA season, what are you on about?

You try telling Wild Bill North didn't finish top 4.

 

[PatrickBateman]

And what was their first allocated draft pick before they traded it off? Geelong finished FIFTH. We don't stop the season after the H&A games, if we did Sydney would currently be celebrating a flag (and s**t, my boys would have three in a row from 1999-2001).

They are NOT a top four side, and neither are Fremantle. Port Adelaide and North Melbourne, along with the grand finalists, are top four sides - they EARNED that recognition.

Lol. Why I'm bothering here I don't know, but...

When in almost 20 years, only 2 teams have won outside the top 4 (at end of H&A season - None since '05), if you don't make a qualifying final, you're more or less making up the numbers. So in other words, the teams who finish in the top 4 are the 'real' contenders. If you knew anything about the game you'd realise that every club preaches exactly this... Maybe the Kangaroos and Port made Prelims by winning a certain game, they were never taking the flag off of Sydney or Hawthorn though. Both Geelong and Fremantle were more consistent throughout the season as the ladder positions suggest. Essendon are rubbish however we look at things, realise this.

Interesting reality being an Essendon supporter. I guess that's the result of having very limited success since the competition has become even an playing field.

 

[Milanista28]

will do. 2014 Grand Final is in the DVD player already. Perhaps I've been spoilt mainly watching Hawthorn games, you just see less clangers.

Dude it's just my opinion, no need to have a ******* fit over it. Myself and I'm sure some others who love footy don't necessarily think AA means that much so in the case of Hooker I think the so called "experts" over rated him in 2014, as I said its my humble opinion. I may be wrong but it's just one mans view.

It's a ******* opinion blog man, take a chill pill. My post was not moronic at all it was based on what I think of Essendons back line in relation to someone saying they were potentially the best in the league, I don't believe that to be anywhere near the case, so what! Too add to that I didn't say anyone has to be a superstar so what's with that line? Some kind of pent up issue? Weird.


Your right about Bagley he might get a gig on "most clubs lists" he would only be depth at other clubs I think and that was my point, he's not that great a defender, You disagree as always and that's fine.

Anyway I just don't think the Dons backline is that awesome and I think it has some issues, it's no big deal.

Have your opinion that's fine but be prepared to be called on it when it's as ignorant and as stupid as it was.

Hooker is in the very top echelon of KP defenders.

Baguley is extremely underrated, I wouldn't swap him for many small defenders in the comp he's absolutely fantastic.

 

[Foxx1]

Have your opinion that's fine but be prepared to be called on it when it's as ignorant and as stupid as it was.

Hooker is in the very top echelon of KP defenders.

Baguley is extremely underrated, I wouldn't swap him for many small defenders in the comp he's absolutely fantastic.

as I've said repeatedly on many threads AA means jack s**t to me and I think Hooker has been over rated because of this. He's been shown up as pretty slow at times during his career and one swallow doesn't make a summer, he has deficiencys and I do not think of him as that great a player despite what you or the AA muppets say, AGAIN that's my opinion. I will say this, evidently Thompson used him better than Hird did cause he's played some shocking football in some games I've seen up until 2014, but I never said he hasn't improved did I!

You can "call me out" (such a lame term) all you want but it won't change my thoughts will it? What I've just said isn't stupid guys it's just my thoughts so just settle, make a cup of tea and relax.

Personally there are about 10-12 smaller defenders id take before Baguely so I disagree. I think perhaps some dons fans on here need to take Jade's advice and watch some more footy because there are some super talented medium to small defenders throughout the comp that play as well or well better than Baguely.

Now at this point do I have to write here that this is my just my opinion guys? I don't want to come across as ignorant after all. This thread was going ok but now it's defensive as * and everyone's jumpy. I leave you to it boys, cheers.

I will depart with this...

Pass Mark: The Flag. Every other grade is 2nd.

 

[Halftimehero]

Lol. Why I'm bothering here I don't know, but...

When in almost 20 years, only 2 teams have won outside the top 4 (at end of H&A season - None since '05), if you don't make a qualifying final, you're more or less making up the numbers. So in other words, the teams who finish in the top 4 are the 'real' contenders. If you knew anything about the game you'd realise that every club preaches exactly this... Maybe the Kangaroos and Port made Prelims by winning a certain game, they were never taking the flag off of Sydney or Hawthorn though. Both Geelong and Fremantle were more consistent throughout the season as the ladder positions suggest. Essendon are rubbish however we look at things, realise this.

Interesting reality being an Essendon supporter. I guess that's the result of having very limited success since the competition has become even an playing field.

You do realise that Geelong only just got over us in there match last season and lasted only one extra week in the finals and were subsequently knocked out by the same team, does that mean Geelong are only marginally better than a rubbish team?
When exactly do you suggest the competition became a level playing field? Essendon has won two premierships since it became the AFL, Geelong has won three, once again it's hardly a massive difference is it?

 

[Ambrosia]

Personally there are about 10-12 smaller defenders id take before Baguely so I disagree. I think perhaps some dons fans on here need to take Jade's advice and watch some more footy because there are some super talented medium to small defenders throughout the comp that play as well or well better than Baguely.

This is a long way away from your original comment of.

Baguely isn't a defenders butt crack to be blunt.

 

[Ashton Agar]

Potentially the best defense in the league??? Hooker is a one dimensional player and over rated in my humble opinion and Gwilt is slow and well past it. Baguely isn't a defenders butt crack to be blunt. As for Hurley, he has shown glimpses but his work ethic on field can be really poor and mobile forwards in teams with quality game plans make him look down right pedestrian and occasionally just plain stupid as a defender. Hawthorn, Sydney, Fremantle and the Cats have much much better players on every defensive line than Essendon do and that's not based on potential that's based on proven quality.

That whole post is ridiculously far from the truth, but those bolded bits. Just wow...

Baguley is arguably one of the best shutdown small defenders in the league.

 

[Milanista28]

as I've said repeatedly on many threads AA means jack s**t to me and I think Hooker has been over rated because of this. He's been shown up as pretty slow at times during his career and one swallow doesn't make a summer, he has deficiencys and I do not think of him as that great a player despite what you or the AA muppets say, AGAIN that's my opinion. I will say this, evidently Thompson used him better than Hird did cause he's played some shocking football in some games I've seen up until 2014, but I never said he hasn't improved did I!

You can "call me out" (such a lame term) all you want but it won't change my thoughts will it? What I've just said isn't stupid guys it's just my thoughts so just settle, make a cup of tea and relax.

Personally there are about 10-12 smaller defenders id take before Baguely so I disagree. I think perhaps some dons fans on here need to take Jade's advice and watch some more footy because there are some super talented medium to small defenders throughout the comp that play as well or well better than Baguely.

Now at this point do I have to write here that this is my just my opinion guys? I don't want to come across as ignorant after all. This thread was going ok but now it's defensive as **** and everyone's jumpy. I leave you to it boys, cheers.

I will depart with this...

Pass Mark: The Flag. Every other grade is 2nd.

If you can name 10-12 better small defenders I'll delete my big footy account.

A small part of me hopes you don't try because it will be the most embarrassing thing of all time.

 

[Jaeger]

If you can name 10-12 better small defenders I'll delete my big footy account.
A small part of me hopes you don't try because it will be the most embarrassing thing of all time.

Maybe I underrate Baguley but off the top of my head... Birchall, Burgoyne, Stratton, Mackie, Enright, Malceski, N.Smith, H.Shaw, Hurn, Spurr, Duffield, B.Smith, Houli, Grimes, Hanley, Broadbent, K.Simpson, Walker, Dempster...

 

[Ants]

My personal view is that Essendon should be aiming for top four. If we don't make that, what was the point of recruiting Chapman/Giles/Cooney? If you're going to top up and then are nowhere near it - cough 2005 (campo), 2006 (Mal Michael) cough - the decision to do so is a huge failure of list management. We also convinced Winders to play on, and for Howlett to stay. So if we don't make top four, I think it's a failure (short of major injury/ASADA problems).

That may or may not reflect fairly on the list, but does reflect the list management decisions.

Don't follow your logic here. If Essendon hadn't have got the "ASADA bullshit" then all that would have happened was that Essendon would have had an extra couple of draftees on their list. Those draftees would be 19 next year and unlikely to make much of a difference for top 4 purposes. Don't think the draft penalties will be felt until at least 2016.

Unless you are saying that the drugs saga will negatively impact Essendon next season (perhaps through health issues, suspensions or negative press).

I think it definitely had an impact. In 2013 we were 13-3, then collapsed. There is a number of people who think the collapse was due to the players/club learning they wouldn't play finals. Of course, it could have been the general Essendon late season decline, but it was a pretty big switch very quick. If it was ASADA saga induced, then we missed out on a chance to be top 4 and have at least two more finals experience than we do now, maybe more, with a chance of winning at least one.

I suppose it goes to a theoretical - if Geelong hadn't tasted preliminary finals in 2004/2005, would they have been able to win it in 2007? I would say those finals runs were critical to their development. So I think missing out in 2013 was a big hit.

And losing the picks can have an impact. Again, it was pretty useful for Geelong to have Selwood in 2007, or Hawthorn Rioli in 2008. Would we have got someone who could have that impact in 2015? Who knows. But we'd have had 3 shots at it that we lost.

So I think it definitely had an impact.

 

[Milanista28]

Maybe I underrate Baguley but off the top of my head... Birchall, Burgoyne, Stratton, Mackie, Enright, Malceski, N.Smith, H.Shaw, Hurn, Spurr, Duffield, B.Smith, Houli, Grimes, Hanley, Broadbent, K.Simpson, Walker, Dempster...

Hahahahahahahahahahaha you just started listing players who play in the back half most of the game sometimes on an opponent, More than half of these guys are rebounding half back flankers who push up to the midfield and assist in attack.

I'll give you Nick Smith as better, Stratton, Spurr, Mackie, Dempster and Grimes as those who actually defend, The rest are attacking flankers.

Pretty funny try though.

 

[Ashton Agar]

Maybe I underrate Baguley but off the top of my head... Birchall, Burgoyne, Stratton, Mackie, Enright, Malceski, N.Smith, H.Shaw, Hurn, Spurr, Duffield, B.Smith, Houli, Grimes, Hanley, Broadbent, K.Simpson, Walker, Dempster...

All of the bolded play entirely different roles to Baguley.

 

[eth-dog]

Houli's a better defender than Baguley? You know what's important to being a good defender? You know, defending...