did you catch the 2013 Ashes? they produced dry slow pitches, and will do so again. We absolutely need 5 bowlers. Agree the 5th one could be a spinner though.
Not convinced. Swann has retired and their number one spinner is Moeen Ali
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did you catch the 2013 Ashes? they produced dry slow pitches, and will do so again. We absolutely need 5 bowlers. Agree the 5th one could be a spinner though.
That doesn't mean there are no dead rubbers. Everyone knows these exist.There are Tests where the result will not influence a series result, but all players are under pressure in every test match. It's Test cricket, every run ins savoured and every wicket is celebrated.
It's got nothing to do with personalities.My point is that most of his runs have been made in what are considered 'dead rubbers' but he doesn't cop the same criticism for doing so. shows that it is more about personalities than actual facts.
Don't resort to platitudes.I believe all spots are pivotal, particularly in the Top 7.
For the record, Smith had an average of 40 at the start of the series. He has now taken the next step so the possibilities have changed. If we're looking at the batting order and ready to accept that Watson shouldn't be at No.3, then there's no reason to instinctively say Smith couldn't bat there.Before the series started, we had Warner, Rogers, Watson, Clarke, Smith, Marsh as the Top 6. Of those 6, only Warner and Clarke averaged more than 39. Watson averaged 37, rogers 35 or so and Marsh had played 2 tests ans sported a shield average of 23. Smith was hovering between 38 and 40.
So after arguing at length that batting order doesn't matter, you now concede that Watson should be moved from No.3 to No.6?I think he should be at 6, but I'm aware that coming into this series he averaged 34 for the past 3.5 years, but close to 40 at #3.
The point is that these batsmen should be shuffled to create a more effective line-up, one which doesn't include a perpetually out-of-form all-rounder in the pivotal position of No.3. That shouldn't be beyond us.I'm saying I want the best 5 batsmen picked, which they probably were. Those best 5 batsmen should then bat where they are most suited, and the 6th best should bat in the spot leftover. In this case, that is #3.
Your argument has been that there are a lack of real alternatives to Watson as the all-rounder. Marsh, however, seems like a pretty good alternative.what exactly is my argument?
I respectfully disagree at this point. I don't think he does look like he could do a better job so far.
Marsh is now in the Test side so it's his performance at that level that count.completely agree, but keep in mind Watson's dry patch with the bat of 31 in test cricket for 4 years is still better than Marsh averaging 28 for the same period at lower levels.
Secondly, Rogers has also been under pressure. Earlier in the summer, there were people on here suggesting he be dropped.
He responded with six consecutive half-centuries and is now safe. If Watson had done that, he'd also go a long way to relieving the pressure on his spot.
Thirdly, Rogers was picked for a specific reason – for his experience and to serve as a foil for David Warner.
Also, there really aren't many guys outside the side with the record to suggest they could replace him, certainly not before the Ashes.
None of that is true of Watson. He's a fish out of water at No.3 and he has direct competition for the all-rounder's spot from Mitch Marsh.
Why do you think Ricky Ponting in his prime batted at No.3 and not No.6?
For the record, Smith had an average of 40 at the start of the series. He has now taken the next step so the possibilities have changed. If we're looking at the batting order and ready to accept that Watson shouldn't be at No.3, then there's no reason to instinctively say Smith couldn't bat there.
So after arguing at length that batting order doesn't matter, you now concede that Watson should be moved from No.3 to No.6?
It's proven to be effective for smith, Clarke and Warner. Do you want to shuffle it to suit Watson?The point is that these batsmen should be shuffled to create a more effective line-up, one which doesn't include a perpetually out-of-form all-rounder in the pivotal position of No.3. That shouldn't be beyond us.
Your argument has been that there are a lack of real alternatives to Watson as the all-rounder. Marsh, however, seems like a pretty good alternative.
Why do you think he couldn't average better than 31 at Test level? It's early days but he's already doing that.
I think Rogers also knew he needed runs to really nail down his place for the Ashes.Foolish people, yes.
Maybe. But it would be impossible to argue he should be dropped if he scored that heavily. But he hasn't done that. That's why Rogers is safe and Watson isn't. Like I said, it's not a comparison that flatters Watson – Rogers has actually scored some runs to cement his place.If Watson had done that, he would be critiqued for not converting.
Why are you so determined to make excuses for Watson?Watson was doing a perfectly good job as an opener, in fact he was averaging 44 there when he was moved. I think its purely cooincidental, but his form slump almost perfectly matches up with being moved.
I couldn't agree more.It's a fallacy that he isn't capable of batting 3. You can't average over 40 as an opener, and over 50 at #4 in first class cricket and suddenly not be able to bat at 3.
His form is the issue, not his suitability to the position.
There you go. Problem solved.I think he could bat there, of course he could. He's good enough to bat anywhere. Smith moved to #3 for NSW when he became captain, specifically to reinforce his position that he wanted to be considered a specialist batsman. He was very good there too.
When I said he should be moved from No.3 to No.6, you said we shouldn't get hung up the fact he's been batting at No.3. But you now agree that he shouldn't be batting there. What's that about?I think it matters. I'm saying it shouldn't influence the selection or otherwise of Watson. I think he should be opening, or at 6.
It would be built around not having a liability at first drop.His last 2 test captains have differed in that view so far. I think its more important to pick the best 5 batsmen + batting all-rounder. How they wish to order themselves is up to them, but we shouldn't be building that order around where Watson should bat.
It's proven to be effective for smith, Clarke and Warner. Do you want to shuffle it to suit Watson?
Well, Watson's last four years with the bat have set the bar pretty low. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest Marsh could improve on that.Yes, I strongly view that Mitch Marsh is both a lesser batsman and bowler than Watson in all forms of cricket at all levels, as such I would select Watson.
He has had a shitload of opportunities so is in no position to complain about his treatment at the hands of the selectors. But because he's not allowed to open, it's someone else's fault that he's been short of runs for four years?
Also, you've argued at length that batting order doesn't matter, so why is it a big deal that Watson no longer opens? Why can't he just move to No.3 and make runs there?
I couldn't agree more.
Based on his form, he should move to No.6 or be dropped.
Smith is an alternative to Watson at No.3. And Marsh is an alternative to Watson as a batting all-rounder.
When I said he should be moved from No.3 to No.6, you said we shouldn't get hung up the fact he's been batting at No.3. But you now agree that he shouldn't be batting there. What's that about?
It would be built around not having a liability at first drop.
Well, Watson's last four years with the bat have set the bar pretty low. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest Marsh could improve on that.
They brought Warner in and probably felt they needed someone slow and steady to bat alongside him. And you'd have to say that's been vindicated.I merely found it strange that they desperately went searching for an opening batsman, and discarded Watson (and Katich) so readily - who in the previous 2-3 years had been doing such a great job.
But you agree that Watson shouldn't be batting at No.3. That's the point. Even though you previously said it's not an issue either way.You're getting confused, it does matter. But what matters more is that the best 5 batsmen play + the batting all-rounder. While I personally disagree with the batting order, its of no concern to me regarding selection.
The point is that, in his current form, he is a bigger liability at No.3 than at No.6.I disagree. He either gets dropped or he doesn't. Couldn't care less where he bats.
On form, his position is tenuous. I don't want him to average 31 at #6, #3 or anywhere else for that matter.
See above.Watson is under pressure because he isn't scoring runs. It wouldn't matter if he was at 6 or 3.
How's he going at Test level?A bar so low Marsh couldn't manage to get above it at lower levels.
Maybe they could just hurry up and move Watson to No.6 so we don't have to rehash this.You 2 want to get a room? Maybe at the Hilton where you can have a jolly roger pillow fight to tough it out...
You're right! It's Watson groundhog day!Maybe they could just hurry up and move Watson to No.6 so we don't have to rehash this.
Not gonna lie. That made me lolThread needs a poll.
I vote glue factory.
Producing dry pitches with an attack from Broad, Anderson, Finn, Jordan etc. would be an interesting selection to say the least.
Lyon was the leading wicket taker this summer though.We produced dry slow pitches this summer with the likes of Johnson, Harris, Starc, Siddle, Hazel!
We produced dry slow pitches this summer with the likes of Johnson, Harris, Starc, Siddle, Hazel!
They brought Warner in and probably felt they needed someone slow and steady to bat alongside him. And you'd have to say that's been vindicated.
Katich is a different kettle of fish.
But you agree that Watson shouldn't be batting at No.3. That's the point. Even though you previously said it's not an issue either way.
The point is that, in his current form, he is a bigger liability at No.3 than at No.6.
You could carry him at No.6 but if he's struggling at No.3, that makes it much harder to build a platform. One early wicket quickly becomes two early wickets. It puts the rest of the line-up under extra pressure. That's not what you want from your top order. And Watson simply hasn't made enough big scores when it matters to justify his spot there anymore.
See above.
How's he going at Test level?
Surely that's what matters.
Ian Dargie I'm guessing?
Don't need to as we can bat marsh at #6 & use a specialist batsman at #3. Ie one capable of making regular tons!Can Henriques or Marsh bat at 3 though?