- Apr 30, 2010
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There should not be a dichotomy of what someone should say in public and what advice they give their children.
When does common sense advice becoome victim blaming?
- Thread starter Sugar2Sideshow
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- Sep 21, 2009
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Why not?
- Apr 30, 2010
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Increases the risk of harm to children who are confused by the conflicting messages and do not follow the safest advice.
- Sep 21, 2009
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Is this conflicting?;
"Don't get into stranger's cars."
Kid is kidnapped and raped.
"It's not your fault, you are not to blame."
- Banned
- #55
So is it fair to give the same advice to women who dress scantily clad and walk in dark alleys at night?
- Sep 25, 2010
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I think advice is great. I think it should come from people who love you. Not from societal pressures and stigmas.
Say you have a niece and nephew. I do, they are youngish but in about 10 years what is a more fair thing to say to either.
Should I;
1) Tell my niece if she has a penchant for wearing short dresses and showing a sexuality it should be tempered with a really smart approach to where she goes, who she hangs out with, how drunk she gets on any given night out. Because consequences can occur.
or
2) Tell my nephew that his penis is not for raping. Because consequences can occur.
Which is more fair?
Might be just me but, unless he is a rapist, he intrinsically knows that advice already, and it's insulting and degrading to suggest he was in any way going to use his penis for that. On the former, unless she's already been educated on good choices, she does not intrinsically know this advice and it was the decent thing to do since you care about this persons welfare.
People can scoff at my example and cite it as extreme or loaded, maybe they are right. But, the social narrative around this is heading towards, and in feminist circles is already at "teach boys not to rape", and that would fix everything.
- Sep 21, 2009
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But you're making this up...
I mean, you even added a clause in your post, because you knew you were being over the top.
Ready for me to give an example to reflect yours? Too bad, here it is.
Should I;
1) Tell my niece not to go outside because she will be raped. (Also, not to stay inside, because there is a higher chance she will be raped).
or
2) Reinforce what my nephew should already know.
Which is more fair?
Here's the thing. A woman can wear whatever she wants, dance however she wants and walk wherever I am (no matter how dark), and I won't rape her.
In fact, I'm not even inclined to rape her, it doesn't even cross my mind.
That's because I'm not a rapist...
Because a rapist is 100% at fault for raping someone.
Saying "Have fun tonight, be careful and keep an eye on your drink" is very different to saying "This wouldn't have happened if you kept an eye on your drink".
Caution and blame are universes apart, especially when it comes to rape.
If you go back and read the thread that my above comments relate to, you will see that it was in direct reference to a group having a "draw a cartoon of Mohammed" competition, which served no good purpose other than to provoke a reaction in Muslim extremists.
So no, I wouldn't give that advice in those words, though I might offer a caution against the dark alley no matter how you're dressed.
In the unlikely scenario that a woman was dressing scantily and walking down a dark alley specifically to taunt rapists, then I guess I might well give her the "don't be surprised when it happens" line.
No there should not be.
But we live in a world where sometimes being pragmatic is more important than being idealistic.
Kids do not intrinsically know everything. I have two young sons and a daughter. They are taught right from wrong, respect etc from my wife and me.
The 'teach boys not to rape' argument you are ridiculing has some merit in it. It is teaching people (in this case males towards females) to respect others. Males that respect females do not rape them. And that teaching of respect for all my kids is an important lesson that every parent should teach their children.
CM86 is justifying Kaiser Trads line that went something like this :'Cats will eat the meat when it is left in the open'.But you're making this up...
I mean, you even added a clause in your post, because you knew you were being over the top.
Ready for me to give an example to reflect yours? Too bad, here it is.
Should I;
1) Tell my niece not to go outside because she will be raped. (Also, not to stay inside, because there is a higher chance she will be raped).
or
2) Reinforce what my nephew should already know.
Which is more fair?
Here's the thing. A woman can wear whatever she wants, dance however she wants and walk wherever I am (no matter how dark), and I won't rape her.
In fact, I'm not even inclined to rape her, it doesn't even cross my mind.
That's because I'm not a rapist...
Because a rapist is 100% at fault for raping someone.
Saying "Have fun tonight, be careful and keep an eye on your drink" is very different to saying "This wouldn't have happened if you kept an eye on your drink".
Caution and blame are universes apart, especially when it comes to rape.
Was foul then and is still foul.
It is not a PC or feminist plot. It is knowing that my daughter can safely go about her business without some thug comitting an atrocity on her person.
telsor
Hall of Famer
It becomes victim blaming when people get trapped in absolutes (often due to ideologies).
Blame can be 80/20 for example...With the 80 clearly being 'mostly to blame', with the 20 still having contributed.
Blame can be 80/20 for example...With the 80 clearly being 'mostly to blame', with the 20 still having contributed.
- Sep 21, 2009
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I agree with this. But I don't think I (at least I didn't mean to) justify Keysar Trad.
- Sep 25, 2010
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Respect has nothing to do with a rapists mindset. Just curious, I bet you taught your kids about stranger danger though, and made sure they were mindful, and didn't hope for a miracle cure like society to "teach pedophiles not to pray on kids".
My point was that by 13,14,15 all boys know what rape is and that it's wrong. Telling all 14 year old boys rape is wrong, do not rape is abhorrent. Unless science comes out with the "rape" gene and says every single boy has it, only boys, and it can be triggered unless imprinting otherwise trains it dormant, we should assume thats not our reality, nor act according to such a false assumption.
I'm glad to hear you are not a rapist. And you raise a good point actually -- It never even crossed your mind! The part that seems odd is you think thats a unique stance. When in reality you are just an insignificant number in the 99. 97% (+) of males (per 100,000) that aren't raping women or men, (it must be noted), according to reversing the statistics of rape victims per 100,000 in this country -- But sure, lets "teach boys not to rape" --
This indicates three things that the logical mind must delineate. 1) Bolded, this figure is genderless. It doesn't specify what percentage was male-on-female forced sex (rape) and it's disingenuous to assume what percentage is female victims, or ignore that factor. 2) "sexual assault" is the term used here, and we should all know and understand, and the link states, includes even as comparatively minor acts as groping someone inappropriately. 3) It does not stipulate of the 51,200 Australians estimate from the surveyed sample, that the majority or what percentage was considered rape under law. Nor the percentage that number was wrt women being raped within the rape proportion of the stat. Nor that within the women that were raped, is there an indicated percentage of men as perpetrators.
When you are going about your daily passions, or your daily grind. Picture this when you think about men and women as human beings;
a) For every 100,000 men you encounter in society, only roughly 0.027% have been charged for "sexual assault", and rape is not clearly defined as a percentage within that umbrella to even consider 0.027% per 100,000 as rapists. And this is just charges, not convictions. So doesn't include cases of false reporting and lack of burden of proof existing within a claim -- which can't be ignored.
b) For every 100,000 women you encounter in society, only roughly 0.027% have come out saying they have been a victim of sexual assault. Not all of those are rape. Not all of those she could prove happened. Some are dismissed as false reports after investigation.
c) Rape is wrong. Sexual assault is wrong. Teaching boys their gender needs a specific lesson to not commit these crimes is wrong. Three wrongs don't make a right -- or a solution.
Ponder this whenever your brain tries to tell you it's a noble idea.
Hey guys, don't you know most of the violence and crime in the U.S is caused by black americans? Black males in fact. Did you know per capita they kill the most by a staggering amount? It's the majority... Don't be ignorant now. Black males need to step in and stop this scorge of their own -- And we need a campaign to stop it at the source! Let's teach black boys not to commit crimes!
The citizen that views the rights of all males as less than the rights of the very few victimized women and men in society don't seem to mind being as sexist and baseless in the subject of rape/sexual assault as that example is racist in the subject of crime -- by racists. Who say such things as "blacks just need to stop committing crime".
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- Banned
- #65
CM is the one good man, so it would be of no surprise to me if he thought his stance was a unique one. This article displays the attitude of these one good man types, who usually come in the form of male feminists and SJWs.
The one good man
By Alison Tieman
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/the-one-good-man/
- Sep 18, 2013
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Thats like saying getting bashed for being gay is a result of you choosing to advertise your sexuality.
They know it because they have been taught that it is wrong. Males do not intrinsically (as in their natural instinct) know this. There are other societies out there where the lack of respect for women has led to a culture that punishes a woman for being raped.
Little story (and yes it is a one off I know). I was in Kabul several years ago, where almost all women wear the full face and body covering. I was outside a compound waiting for my boss, when a youngish woman (20 or so) walked past. Two males were harassing the s**t out of her, and I have no doubt in my mind that had they had half a chance, they would have raped her. The abusive tirade she had to undergo was just disgusting. The difference between her and the majority of others that I saw; wearing western clothes, face uncovered, alone and not in the company of a male family member to PROTECT her.
Rape is about the exercise of power amongst other things. But males that actually respect people do not rape them. Respect for others is something that is taught to children. Children are selfish and egocentric, they are born that way. It is the nurturing of our children that overcomes their natural inclinations.
Chief
~ Shmalpha ~
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- #68
Does he know what rape is? Does he know to back off when he should? I know a few blokes who I would not call rapists but who have had to be blocked by mates because they are drunk and have backed a scared girl into a corner in a pub or nightclub.
Utterly preposterous to think that boys don't need guidance in how to behave with girls, but girls need to be told what they cannot do.
I guess that a Tweet like "when will guys learn that sharing their ex's nude photos with their mates is wrong?" would have gotten a chorus of derision from the men's rights crowd.
I was in a pub a month ago and a guy was showing a photo on his phone. He must have showed it to three or four friends before a girl in the group told him to stop it and put his phone away. We need more people to do that, not more people telling girls that they are responsible for these sorts of betrayals.
Chief
~ Shmalpha ~
- Admin
- #69
Rape apologists and deniers are often telling us that it is in the nature of young guys to try to get sex and they cannot be blamed for their natural urges.
And yet, boys don't need to be taught respect for themselves and others? They intrinsically know not to force themselves on girls and to guide them on the subject is insulting to them? Dare we call this Doublethink?
- Sep 21, 2009
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What the s**t???
How does any of the strawman s**t you posted connect to what I posted???
Three of a kind! A Dock-Lys post, liked by tesseract and kfc1.
Only nutters think that every man is a rapist.
And only nutters think that educating people that rape is bad, and the different levels of rape are bad.
I mean, tesseract thinks that if you don't scream loud enough to be heard, it doesn't count... or some stupid s**t along those lines.
So we clearly need to educate kids.
In no way, is that saying that every male is a rapist, or thinks like a rapist.
And at no point did I say I was the only male who wasn't a rapist.
I was pointing out that it's the rapists fault 100%, not the victim.
*...
cartwright
Brownlow Medallist
It's like talking to two potatoes
Only an idiot thinks the actual message is "do not rape"
Rather than
"Respect someone's answer when it is no"
"Don't touch another person without their consent"
"Respect someone's personal space"
- Banned
- #72
The feminist message isn't ""Respect someone's answer when it is no", "Don't touch another person without their consent" and "Respect someone's personal space", it's specifically "teach boys/men not to rape". The feminist message is to solely blame men and solely name men as the perpetrators and women as the sole victims. There's no gender neutral "someone" and "person" in the feminist narrative. It's hate speech against males on feminists' part to go down this path, yet they do so unashamedly. Feminist misandry gets rationalized away by their blinkered gynocentric view of 'think of da wymynz' first, foremost and only.
That would be the extremist feminists. Feminism is no more black and white than political leanings. The majority live somewhere closer to the middle and in amongst the grey than the polar opposite ends.
- Banned
- #74
You've just used what's known as the NAFALT deflection.
Feminism is what its actions consist of - as directed by prominent and educated feminists who shape and push the agenda - not the rhetoric of the average person who's attached the label to themselves.
That's like arguing all right-leaning people are shaped directly by what Take Back Australia organisers and Andrew Bolt say.
It's simply not true.
