List Mgmt. 2015 LIST Discussion - trades, free agency etc

[Faz 2000]

In 2009: 12 - Kane Lucas
In 2010: 18 - Matthew Watson
In 2011: 22 - Josh Bootsma

 

[LordLucifer]

You have to tolerate the idea that most people's patience is wearing thin.

Those that have managed Carlton over the past 13 years along with their choice of actions is practically the main reason why so many have lost faith in this club. We have reached a point where arguably the most successful club in Aussie Rules history has become the laughing stock of the 21st century so far.

If anything, the club itself has been more hasty for the taste of success than the supporters have. The proof was clear when Ratten was sacked in 2012, when the problems the team was encountering were out of his control. I distinctively remember looking at a blueprint that stated that the blues would aim to see another flag by this year. Carlton is pretty much digging its own grave, with its high expectations and poor decision making.

A lot of our supporters are entitled to feel sick and tired of the constant need to refresh the playing list and start again when they feel it has been long enough. While a team like Hawthorn is winning half of the flags in the past 8 years, we are winning 4 spoons in the past 10.

While I'm confident that the club will get back on its feet, I understand why so many do not feel the same way. When your recruiting and development teams have been a complete disgrace, and the board is constantly changing members (which does happen to apply pressure on the coaches and players), many are going to have a hard time believing that this club is going to make the right turn in the not-too-distant future.

Fair comment !!

There has been a lot of new faces at the club recently with many of them appearing to be very smart appointments.

This club cannot keep performing in an unprofessional manner, far too many people have ploughed their membership & coterie money into the club all in good faith yet ended up being shat on from a great height.

I think this time around, it's 'now or never', people will walk away from the club, no matter how staunch and one-eyed you are, you just can't keep flogging a dead horse, especially for 20-years.

To get this right and to achieve sustained success, we all have to eat a little humble pie for a few more years.

I can wait, I'm hoping others will too (as long as the club doesn't go down the quick-fix route).

 

[My name geoff]

You have to tolerate the idea that most people's patience is wearing thin.

Those that have managed Carlton over the past 13 years along with their choice of actions is practically the main reason why so many have lost faith in this club. We have reached a point where arguably the most successful club in Aussie Rules history has become the laughing stock of the 21st century so far.

If anything, the club itself has been more hasty for the taste of success than the supporters have. The proof was clear when Ratten was sacked in 2012, when the problems the team was encountering were out of his control. I distinctively remember looking at a blueprint that stated that the blues would aim to see another flag by this year. Carlton is pretty much digging its own grave, with its high expectations and poor decision making.

A lot of our supporters are entitled to feel sick and tired of the constant need to refresh the playing list and start again when they feel it has been long enough. While a team like Hawthorn is winning half of the flags in the past 8 years, we are winning 4 spoons in the past 10.

While I'm confident that the club will get back on its feet, I understand why so many do not feel the same way. When your recruiting and development teams have been a complete disgrace, and the board is constantly changing members (which does happen to apply pressure on the coaches and players), many are going to have a hard time believing that this club is going to make the right turn in the not-too-distant future.

Regardless of how good number 1 pick could be, If we can get 7 potentially top 100 players into the club vs 3 maybe 4, I don't look at that as a short cut. I look at that as a rebuild.

Especially considering we already have a future possible number 1 player in the comp, if we can surround him with a greater spread of talented players, we should look at it

 

[LordLucifer]

Regardless of how good number 1 pick could be, If we can get 7 potentially top 100 players into the club vs 3 maybe 4, I don't look at that as a short cut. I look at that as a rebuild.

Especially considering we already have a future possible number 1 player in the comp, if we can surround him with a greater spread of talented players, we should look at it

I hope you are not advocating trading #1 there Geoffrey ??

If so, your aim is honourable but selling the farm like that just isn't the right way to go, especially if there is added risk attached.

Adding Weitering to the squad alongside Cripps is another building block, both are seen as long-term & hopefully gun players who will form an important part of our next premiership team.

No matter how good Cripps is, he cannot carry a team of lesser lights on his own.

 

[SABlue]

We are Carlton and our aim shouldn't be just making finals. Hawks have been going since 07. They may have grabbed a flag in 07 a bit before time but that is 6-8 years of sustained contending. And they did this through about 3-4 years of drafting 01-04. Thats where their core group came from. They continued to add through the draft up until 07 using most of the time taking their 1st rounders and they built up a core group. That's 5-6 years of building a list through the draft. After that they started adding pieces to fill gaps in their team.
Cats did the same through 99-02 with a bit of help from F/S. By doing that they had sustained success from roughly 05-13.
It is the only way to do it. Not just my opinion but proven by the best.
I love murph, Gibbs etc but it might mean that we won't be contending with them in the team. That's just the luck of it if we do this properly. Crawford an absolute Hawks legend nearly didn't get that flag because they did it properly.
If you don't like this bad luck because history says for sustained contending it is the only way to do it. I'm patient because I want to see us back up the top where a history says we belong. No shortcuts.

 

[My name geoff]

I hope you are not advocating trading #1 there Geoffrey ??

If so, your aim is honourable but selling the farm like that just isn't the right way to go, especially if there is added risk attached.

Adding Weitering to the squad alongside Cripps is another building block, both are seen as long-term & hopefully gun players who will form an important part of our next premiership team.

No matter how good Cripps is, he cannot carry a team of lesser lights on his own.

I agree with 90% of what you are saying, the other 10% is advocating trading pick 1 not just for lesser lights, but using the pick 1 to leverage say the Henderson trade in our favour.

The suggestion I'm making is say pick 1 who could become a top 10 player in 3-4 years, Henderson(not in top 150) and pick 20 (could be a bust in this trade) for 3 top 100 players plus a draft pick which has a strong chance of netting us another future top 100 player.

Keep in mind that our number 1 concern is not lack of superstars, it's high proportion of average/useless players.

Potentially could end up being:

Weitering, 2nd round pick

Vs

Menzel, Duncan, Guthrie, Curnow

 

[LordLucifer]

I agree with 90% of what you are saying, the other 10% is advocating trading pick 1 not just for lesser lights, but using the pick 1 to leverage say the Henderson trade in our favour.

The suggestion I'm making is say pick 1 who could become a top 10 player in 3-4 years, Henderson(not in top 150) and pick 20 (could be a bust in this trade) for 3 top 100 players plus a draft pick which has a strong chance of netting us another future top 100 player.

Keep in mind that our number 1 concern is not lack of superstars, it's high proportion of average/useless players.

Potentially could end up being:

Weitering, 2nd round pick

Vs

Menzel, Duncan, Guthrie, Curnow

We trade out a bone-fide CHB plus the potential drafting of a 10-year CHB for a guy with a really dodgy knee and a couple of other mids ??

Sorry Geoffrey, the spine is where it is at and it is where we need to focus the rebuild.

 

[My name geoff]

We trade out a bone-fide CHB plus the potential drafting of a 10-year CHB for a guy with a really dodgy knee and a couple of other mids ??

Sorry Geoffrey, the spine is where it is at and it is where we need to focus the rebuild.

I respect what you are saying.

My opinion differs in that I don't think key forwards or defenders are crucial to win premierships. It's the high volume of quality players in the midfield and forward line that makes the difference

 

[BringBackSimmo]

I agree with 90% of what you are saying, the other 10% is advocating trading pick 1 not just for lesser lights, but using the pick 1 to leverage say the Henderson trade in our favour.

The suggestion I'm making is say pick 1 who could become a top 10 player in 3-4 years, Henderson(not in top 150) and pick 20 (could be a bust in this trade) for 3 top 100 players plus a draft pick which has a strong chance of netting us another future top 100 player.

Keep in mind that our number 1 concern is not lack of superstars, it's high proportion of average/useless players.

Potentially could end up being:

Weitering, 2nd round pick

Vs

Menzel, Duncan, Guthrie, Curnow

The David Kernahan Plan? Let's see how many brothers we can get at the club?

 

[My name geoff]

The David Kernahan Plan? Let's see how many brothers we can get at the club?

Haha pretty much

 

[HereComesJuddy]

I respect what you are saying.

My opinion differs in that I don't think key forwards or defenders are crucial to win premierships. It's the high volume of quality players in the midfield and forward line that makes the difference

Frawley, Lake, Gibson, roughy and gunstan say hi

 

[Bfevola]

Frawley, Lake and Gibson say hi

Any updates on Carlisle? You seem to know a bit about the situation - HereComesJuddy.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Any updates on Carlisle? You seem to know a bit about the situation - Here Comes Juddy.

No new news unfortunately. I'd be surprised if he has chosen the saints as Barrett reported. They are offering more money and years as previously mentioned, but I believe the ball is still in our club's hands. Sorry I haven't heard any changes.

 

[Bfevola]

No new news unfortunately. I'd be surprised if he has chosen the saints as Barrett reported. They are offering more money and years as previously mentioned, but I believe the ball is still in our club's hands. Sorry I haven't heard any changes.

Thanks. Yeh Barrett seems insistent, however Carlton is saying nothing so guess they are saying Saints due to the money and years and the fact we are quiet.

He needs to make his mind up soon though. Very strange situation indeed.

 

[Carl]

Hawks premiership team:
11- 1st round picks (4 traded in)
4- 2nd round (1 traded in)
1- 3rd round
5- 4th round plus ( 1 traded in)
1- rookie pick (traded in)

What does this tell you? 1st round picks are the key to being successful. Keep them and if we trade for players look for players who were first round picks.
Secondly and nearly as important. We must seriously consider going to 40/4 rookies instead of 38/6 (very few teams go for 38/6). By doing this we pretty much get the 2 best rookie picks this year. I know they are a long shot but 5 of the hawks team went at 66,69,70,71 and 77. So even if we delist them in 2 years time, we will then have 2 picks before the rookie picks. To me it's common sense we do this but I can't understand why we don't. (most rookie picks we get usually get min 2 years anyway).
The only original rookie pick that played was Gibson who came from North. So not one player for the hawks was a rookie pick for them.
It just shows how important 1st round picks are.

 

[The Bighouse]

Hawks premiership team:
11- 1st round picks (4 traded in)
4- 2nd round (1 traded in)
1- 3rd round
5- 4th round plus ( 1 traded in)
1- rookie pick (traded in)

What does this tell you? 1st round picks are the key to being successful. Keep them and if we trade for players look for players who were first round picks.
Secondly and nearly as important. We must seriously consider going to 40/4 rookies instead of 38/6 (very few teams go for 38/6). By doing this we pretty much get the 2 best rookie picks this year. I know they are a long shot but 5 of the hawks team went at 66,69,70,71 and 77. So even if we delist them in 2 years time, we will then have 2 picks before the rookie picks. To me it's common sense we do this but I can't understand why we don't. (most rookie picks we get usually get min 2 years anyway).
The only original rookie pick that played was Gibson who came from North. So not one player for the hawks was a rookie pick for them.
It just shows how important 1st round picks are.

Depending on the GWS raid, we could have a high number of 1st rounders on our list still, disproportionate to our ladder position. We had a lot this year but will be minus a few with Judd, Watson, Hendo & Yazz departing.
Plowman, Tomlinson, Sumner, Weitering, maybe an Aish or Lennon in the PSD to replace?

 

[My name geoff]

Frawley, Lake, Gibson, roughy and gunstan say hi

bar roughy who plays more as a utility, all these players were traded in after the Hawks developed their talented core group of Cyril, hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, bruest, shiels, Burgoyne and birchall.

 

[Carl]

bar roughy who plays more as a utility, all these players were traded in after the Hawks developed their talented core group of Cyril, hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, bruest, shiels, Burgoyne and birchall.

2 mobile key forwards and a whole lot of pace around them.

 

[SABlue]

bar roughy who plays more as a utility, all these players were traded in after the Hawks developed their talented core group of Cyril, hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, bruest, shiels, Burgoyne and birchall.

You forgot buddy. What they did was best available. If a gun mid was predicted to fall 1 this year then would take him. But Weitering is best available. Next years draft is full of high quality mids and we'll grab the best available then.
Those 4 cats you are suggesting are not stars of the game. Rate Guthrie and Duncan but no Hodge, Roughead and Lewis. Because that is what you are suggesting.
To give up our chance of a hodge, Roughead or Lewis for Guthrie and Duncan. No thanks.
That would just be a horrible decision of the highest order.

 

[My name geoff]

You forgot buddy. What they did was best available. If a gun mid was predicted to fall 1 this year then would take him. But Weitering is best available. Next years draft is full of high quality mids and we'll grab the best available then.
Those 4 cats you are suggesting are not stars of the game. Rate Guthrie and Duncan but no Hodge, Roughead and Lewis. Because that is what you are suggesting.
To give up our chance of a hodge, Roughead or Lewis for Guthrie and Duncan. No thanks.
That would just be a horrible decision of the highest order.

Just used the cats players as hypotheticals, but a core group of Murphy, Gibbs, Cripps, Duncan, Guthrie, graham, Thomas, Menzel, Menzel would compete with any side.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Just used the cats players as hypotheticals, but a core group of Murphy, Gibbs, Cripps, Duncan, Guthrie, graham, Thomas, Menzel, Menzel would compete with any side.

I don't want us to just compete. I want to destroy these other teams in a few years.

 

[CrippsyCream]

I agree with 90% of what you are saying, the other 10% is advocating trading pick 1 not just for lesser lights, but using the pick 1 to leverage say the Henderson trade in our favour.

The suggestion I'm making is say pick 1 who could become a top 10 player in 3-4 years, Henderson(not in top 150) and pick 20 (could be a bust in this trade) for 3 top 100 players plus a draft pick which has a strong chance of netting us another future top 100 player.

Keep in mind that our number 1 concern is not lack of superstars, it's high proportion of average/useless players.

Potentially could end up being:

Weitering, 2nd round pick

Vs

Menzel, Duncan, Guthrie, Curnow

You're missing pick 20 in your comparison. Few flaws, why would Geelong give up their only young midfielders for Henderson and Weitering? Especially since you say spine doesn't matter. Their first is also going to Adelaide.

Would rather: Weitering, Tomlinson, Plowman and Philips. Get more class midfielders next year to compliment Murphy, Gibbs, Cripps and Thomas. Maybe even Aish in the PSD this year.

 

[SABlue]

Just used the cats players as hypotheticals, but a core group of Murphy, Gibbs, Cripps, Duncan, Guthrie, graham, Thomas, Menzel, Menzel would compete with any side.

Just can't kick a goal or defend one. My bad, we get D.Menzel that has played 2 games in 4 years so we can back that in as guaranteed bag full every week.
Even if it's not those cats players you are still happy to give up our chance of getting a hodge, Roughead and Lewis for any middle of the road mid.
Glad your not our list manager.

 

[DangerousD]

That was Lucas in 2009

my bad

 

[1981]

Got to be careful with the 3 or 4 for 1 deals. Some players look better in a good side. I'm not sure Guthrie would look that good in our side.

Weitering though would, assuming he's quality that is.

You can't go past cream.