AFL Destroying the Father and Son

[whatboutbob]

So why should a kid who grows up in WA have to move to QLD or NSW?

Facepalm. Because there's not currently sufficient talent produced by Qld and NSW to support teams there...which is why the League is trying to grow the culture in those States with the academies.

 

[Toadvine]

An athletic 12yo Brisbane kid is presented with two options:

a) play rugby league, which is far, far more popular, with the promise that if they're good enough they can play for "their" team the broncos one day.
b) play GayFL and end up in a lottery to play anywhere in Australia.

Which do you think they'd choose?

If you want to attract them from the dominant codes in Queensland, then to compete with them you need that pathway to their local club - cos that's what the Broncos (and the Reds) offer.

Lethal put it succinctly recently:

“People who live in the AFL heartland don’t understand what it’s like in NSW and Queensland. They think they do, but they don’t really.

This is just a load of crap, sorry. Why would a local Brisbane rugby player only play for the broncos? They wouldn't they'll play anywhere in the NRL. The same should go for the AFL kids.

That quote from lethal is regarding retaining kids from other states the the "success" of expansion clubs. Nothing to do with academies or locals attitudes towards playing footy.

 

[doggies ftw]

Shhh, the comp is totally fair other than the academies. Eddie told me so.

Don't forget the COLA!

 

[doggies ftw]

They would have until everyone cried about Brisbane getting Jon Brown. I think his dad played a tick over 50 games with Fitzroy. After the uproar eligibility was increased to 100 games, then after everyone cried about Geelong getting Tom Hawkins, the bidding system was introduced.

There is no way any club should have to give up 2 or more picks for any untried player no matter how good he's supposed to be.

These people crying just didn't want to see the dogs have any success did they

Without any rule changes we'd have Sam Reid in our forward line, Ben Reid in our backline, Smedts in the team, and I think another good player cant remember who though. Along with an extra first rounder in 2008, and an extra first and second rounder in 2010. * we'd be looking good!

 

[whatboutbob]

This is just a load of crap, sorry. Why would a local Brisbane rugby player only play for the broncos? They wouldn't they'll play anywhere in the NRL. The same should go for the AFL kids.

That quote from lethal is regarding retaining kids from other states the the "success" of expansion clubs. Nothing to do with academies or locals attitudes towards playing footy.

Spoken like someone with no idea about footy culture in Queensland.

 

[Toadvine]

Spoken like someone with no idea about footy culture in Queensland.

Some great arguments you put forward there...

Oh and whatboutbob Isaac Conway supported Collingwood growing up so it's not like all these kids are saying "Lions or I'm out".
I'm sure plenty of other kids up there support other clubs as well.

I'm not denying that AFL is vastly less popular than Rugby in QLD or NSW but that has nothing to do with clubs in those states having exclusive access to talent from there.

 

[melbournehammer]

This is just a load of crap, sorry. Why would a local Brisbane rugby player only play for the broncos? They wouldn't they'll play anywhere in the NRL. The same should go for the AFL kids.

That quote from lethal is regarding retaining kids from other states the the "success" of expansion clubs. Nothing to do with academies or locals attitudes towards playing footy.

Maybe one of the things you aren't considering is that nrl doesn't have a draft so that a player can choose which club they play for rather than the other way round

 

[whatboutbob]

Some great arguments you put forward there...

Oh and whatboutbob Isaac Conway supported Collingwood growing up so it's not like all these kids are saying "Lions or I'm out".
I'm sure plenty of other kids up there support other clubs as well.

I'm not denying that AFL is vastly less popular than Rugby in QLD or NSW but that has nothing to do with clubs in those states having exclusive access to talent from there.

Honestly there's no point me putting forth further arguments. I'm speaking with experience and knowledge of the situation. You're not and you've got your blinkers on.

I'm well aware Conway's a Pies supporter. His father's regaled me with how that came to be (along with his tears and dummy spit during the 03 granny). Answer why so many kids initially coming through the academy system aren't Lions supporters and you'll have the answer as to why the culture needs to be changed...but with your blinkers on there's no point me bothering.

 

[Toadvine]

Maybe one of the things you aren't considering is that nrl doesn't have a draft so that a player can choose which club they play for rather than the other way round

Actually I am considering that but can't teams offer kids whatever they want and go wherever. Falau's first team was the the Storm and he grew up in NSW and QLD.

 

[melbournehammer]

Actually I am considering that but can't teams offer kids whatever they want and go wherever. Falau's first team was the the Storm and he grew up in NSW and QLD.

That being the case, to follow from the earlier comment if a kid in Brisbane wants to play for the broncos he can whereas any such kid in the afl, if the academy becomes part of ordinary draft arrangements could go anywhere.

I was merely pointing that out to confirm the accuracy of the comment not to infer that this was better or a justification of the academy system. See this as pretty minor myself but I am not the kid nor am I the parents and this might be an important basis upon which they entered the academy.

 

[whatboutbob]

That being the case, to follow from the earlier comment if a kid in Brisbane wants to play for the broncos he can whereas any such kid in the afl, if the academy becomes part of ordinary draft arrangements could go anywhere.

I was merely pointing that out to confirm the accuracy of the comment not to infer that this was better or a justification of the academy system. See this as pretty minor myself but I am not the kid nor am I the parents and this might be an important basis upon which they entered the academy.

Folau's hardly a great example. A kid who'd not long been in Brissy with no real allegiance to the Broncos, already indoctrinated in the sport, before being scouted by the Storm. I don't see the relevance.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Lethal put it succinctly recently:

“People who live in the AFL heartland don’t understand what it’s like in NSW and Queensland. They think they do, but they don’t really.

This isn't an argument against the ongoing moderation of inequitable programs. The issue of long term talent development in NSW and Queensland is separate from the issue of short to medium term equalization measures.

The Academy system is a positive equalization measure in the case of GWS and GC, it's close to neutral in regards to Brisbane due to recent cultural and player development issues leading to loss of interstate talent. Which isn't a historical problem. Move onwards to Sydney and the current measures appears grossly unfair not just for established clubs in football states, but also towards GWS, GC and to a much lesser extent Brisbane.

 

[Toadvine]

Folau's hardly a great example. A kid who'd not long been in Brissy with no real allegiance to the Broncos, already indoctrinated in the sport, before being scouted by the Storm. I don't see the relevance.

Your point was that all kids in QLD play rugby because they want to play for the Broncos and therefore telling kids they could have to move interstate if they chose AFL would turn them off. I was using Folau as an example of someone who played in Brisbane and who was happy to go interstate.

How about Cooper Cronk? born and bred QLDer. I'm sure I could find more if I tried.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Of course we want the players, mate. That's not inconsistent with wanting to develop the game. They are complimentary and mutually-beneficial objectives.

And stop whinging about your WAFC license obligations. Take it up with your club's owners. It's a matter for them.

But it also matters to every AFL club.

It's essentially the same, thing only less direct and Sydney as club benefits greatly from it, either directly through WA players drafted to Sydney or by the extension of the depth of talent available broadly.

 

[doona]

Lloyd Perris? Sam Naismith? Daniel Robinson?

Brandon Jack is the only player ever to be apart of the swans academy and drafted (Or on the Swans list).

Lloyd Perris was a NSW scholarship player. The same system that allowed any NSW player to be on a clubs scholarship.

 

[Zach Package]

Brandon Jack is the only player ever to be apart of the swans academy and drafted (Or on the Swans list).

Lloyd Perris was a NSW scholarship player. The same system that allowed any NSW player to be on a clubs scholarship.

Are you saying all these google results, and the fact that they were drafted in the last round of the rookie draft (indicative of exclusive academy access) are lies?

Sorry to everyone for derailing this thread by the way, the two issues have become intrinsically linked for some bizarre reason

 

[doona]

Are you saying all these google results, and the fact that they were drafted in the last round of the rookie draft (indicative of exclusive academy access) are lies?

Sorry to everyone for derailing this thread by the way, the two issues have become intrinsically linked for some bizarre reason

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/season/players/nsw-scholarship-program

Lloydd Perris was in the NSW scholarship program before it ceased with the creation of the academies. Any club could obtain players, but few did. That is why Perris is on our Rookie list.

If he was an academy player, that someone else wanted we would have had to draft him in the AFL draft. He was actually disappointing we didnt put him on our senior list, but the NSW scholarship program allowed it.

I can find you a lot more documentation if you actually think I am wrong. This is Big Footy. No one knows the actual rules. Which I am not.

 

[doona]

Are you saying all these google results, and the fact that they were drafted in the last round of the rookie draft (indicative of exclusive academy access) are lies?

Sorry to everyone for derailing this thread by the way, the two issues have become intrinsically linked for some bizarre reason

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The-Pope/NSW_AFL_scholarship_program

Ps. Taylor Walker got to Adelaide through the NSW scholarship program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Walker_(footballer)

Please try and prove me wrong. PLEASE!!!!!

 

[Zach Package]

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/season/players/nsw-scholarship-program

Lloydd Perris was in the NSW scholarship program before it ceased with the creation of the academies. Any club could obtain players, but few did. That is why Perris is on our Rookie list.

If he was an academy player, that someone else wanted we would have had to draft him in the AFL draft. He was actually disappointing we didnt put him on our senior list, but the NSW scholarship program allowed it.

I can find you a lot more documentation if you actually think I am wrong. This is Big Footy. No one knows the actual rules. Which I am not.

Those two links have proved nothing.

If you want to call out the difference between 'Cherry picked as a member of the swans academy, trained with the swans academy and then taken as an exclusive NSW zone selection' and 'trained with the academy and taken under the academy rule' then fine, but it's the same s**t.

 

[doona]

Those two links have proved nothing.

If you want to call out the difference between 'Cherry picked as a member of the swans academy, trained with the swans academy and then taken as an exclusive NSW zone selection' and 'trained with the academy and taken under the academy rule' then fine, but it's the same s**t.

http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-4710-0-0-0&sID=55526.

view links like:
http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc...sID=55526&&news_task=DETAIL&articleID=8764796

http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc...sID=55526&&news_task=DETAIL&articleID=6950810

http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc...sID=55526&&news_task=DETAIL&articleID=6287510

.......

If you do not want to read the facts, I cant make you.

The NSW scholarship program was open to all clubs. ALL clubs.

I am just not going to bother with you.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

RE: Father Son, i think the most sensible solution would be to change the bidding process only slightly.

Eg: West Coast finish 12th in 2014 and have picks 7, 27, 45, ect... and nominate Alec Waterman as a Father Son selection.

Everyone passes on him up until pick 27, where he goes past West Coasts first and second picks. Eventually a bid comes in at pick 30. West Coast would currently be able to pick up with what is their "next selection", nominally pick 45. However under my solution there would be a number of picks (eg: five picks after 27, from 28 to 32) that force the Eagles to use their "last pick" pick 27 instead of their "next pick" 45. Bids that come after those five picks from 28 to 32 would continue as is and force the club to use their "next pick", thus eliminating what is a bit of a hole that allows players to fall dramatically below where they might be ranked in the draft.

This is exceptionally useful regarding higher picks, where clubs tend to have a stronger consensus on the draft order and where the F/S rule is open to exploitation from low finishing teams. The only way around these extra five picks is if the club in question has more than one nominee for the F/S rule. Which hasn't happened often.

This naturally doesn't address the issues surrounding Sydney and Brisbane, where they have a higher chance of getting multiple F/S and Academy players in the same year. Alternate rules must be found which balance, both their current rights to local academy talent and effective equalization for all teams.

 

[Zach Package]

http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-4710-0-0-0&sID=55526.

view links like:
http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc...sID=55526&&news_task=DETAIL&articleID=8764796

http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc...sID=55526&&news_task=DETAIL&articleID=6950810

.......

If you do not want to read the facts, I cant make you.

The NSW scholarship program was open to all clubs. ALL clubs.

I am just not going to bother with you.

Well s**t, you just proved my point didn't you?

We weren't even arguing about the academies, just the players that have come through the pathway, and you just blew the whole thing to bits.

it was a level playing field, it's not anymore, that's your point yeah?

 

[doona]

Well s**t, you just proved my point didn't you?

We weren't even arguing about the academies, just the players that have come through the pathway, and you just blew the whole thing to bits.

it was a level playing field, it's not anymore, that's your point yeah?

You were saying there were more players from the academy program the brandon jack on the Swans list which is incorrect. I am confusded about our argument as you didnt know the difference between the NSW scholarship program and the Swans Academy.

 

[whatboutbob]

The Academy system is a positive equalization measure in the case of GWS and GC, it's close to neutral in regards to Brisbane due to recent cultural and player development issues leading to loss of interstate talent. Which isn't a historical problem.

Errr, it isn't? Buckley, Hilton, O'Bree, Headland...the list goes on and on...

Your point was that all kids in QLD play rugby because they want to play for the Broncos and therefore telling kids they could have to move interstate if they chose AFL would turn them off. I was using Folau as an example of someone who played in Brisbane and who was happy to go interstate.

That really, really wasn't my point at all. My point was that if you're going to convert kids to a less popular code, offering less than the popular code ain't gonna cut it. Citing examples of players who were already indoctrinated in the sport is irrelevant.

It isn't called "rugby" btw - that's rugby union.

 

[Galileo9]

if afl was serious about developing game in NSW and QLD, they should allow EVERY club to have an academy in those states. why not? problem is that poor melbourne clubs will cry regarding cost. so self interest will win again at the expense of greater good.