Armitage - Under-rated by supporters?

[SaintsSeptember]

There are a lot of comments about how "ordinary" Armitage is. You read it enough and you start to believe he's a total spud.

One Word : Clearances.

Armo may not be Gary Ablett in his wildest dreams but he's StKilda's best clearance winner in2014, and he has 74% disposal effiency. 74 is better than the likes of Boak, Cotchin, Heppel.
Only a handful of these sorts of players have that sort of disposal efficiency.

Luke Ball , has never been able to get close to Armitage's 2014 average for clearances.

24th in the AFL for clearances 2014. Armitage is ABOVE average.

 

[Big Mart]

Yes he is... Very underrated!

Lots of stat reading goes on... He doesn't runs around behind blokes with as free kick and the one-two

He wins inside ball and ball fwd of the centre...

We were a better side when he played, which suggests his impact... Both at generating ball and putting inside pressure on.

Armo missed 8 through the year .... Was never 100% and still impacted.

Not elite by any means... But a full season will mean a top 3 in the B&F

 

[Barrels]

Very much so.

#LoveTheArmo

 

[karaoke]

Not underrated by Finnis though......

 

[Present Not Past]

Not under-rated by me.
He had a delayed start to his career due to circumstances beyond his control, but if he keeps maturing he will be a very useful elite player when we make it back into the finals.

 

[God Save Max King]

Copy posting a post of mine re Armo from early October but...

Armo is not inside the top 80 for disposals averaged in 2014. He was equal 40th in contested possessions per game, outside the top 70 for effective disposals and outside the top 20 for clearances. He's considered a strong tackler, yet was also outside the top 70 for tackles per game last season. By these metrics I could suggest that Armitage is not a top 40 inside midfielder in the competition.

In a top 10 team in the comp, I don't think Armo starts at their center bounces. Don't get me wrong, I love what he's doing for us and think he's very important in the way he throws his body at the footy and takes knocks, but he wouldn't be an 'above average' midfielder.

 

[karaoke]

Since he returned from injury in rd 13 this year, averaged ~101 SC pts (93.4 SC pts - '14 overall ave).

That sort of scoring (100 pts ave.) is what I would be expecting from him, from now on in SC.

Interesting, Hayes was 40th ranked SC midfielder this year with 101.2 ave (Armitage - 66th).

 

[Joffaboy]

About the same ability as Powell was but a bit quicker.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Armitage is actually indicative of several core players in the that middle-aged bracket from last season. The injuries that he had, along with Jack Steven and Jarryn Geary, really hampered us significantly. It also meant that there's a lot of ambiguity in most fans' brains about their worth to the team. We have such short memories with players like that. It'll be fascinating to see what difference having them fit-and-firing in the 2015 team makes.

 

[holllywood]

Copy posting a post of mine re Armo from early October but...

Armo is not inside the top 80 for disposals averaged in 2014. He was equal 40th in contested possessions per game, outside the top 70 for effective disposals and outside the top 20 for clearances. He's considered a strong tackler, yet was also outside the top 70 for tackles per game last season. By these metrics I could suggest that Armitage is not a top 40 inside midfielder in the competition.

In a top 10 team in the comp, I don't think Armo starts at their center bounces. Don't get me wrong, I love what he's doing for us and think he's very important in the way he throws his body at the footy and takes knocks, but he wouldn't be an 'above average' midfielder.

There is more to football players than numbers.

What stats fail to account for is the things he does off the pill. BM mentioned it in his post, he uses his body to the advantage of his team by blocking the opponent providing a shepard. Therefore his value is unquantifiable and we should look past his numbers to get a reading on how valuable he is to our team. A bit like Nick Collison from your mob in the NBA .

Our midfield is a lot better with him in it than out, and he will make life easier for the likes of Dunstan, Newnes, Billings and a host of other young players while they continue to develop into AFL quality midfielders. And that is where I think his true value lies.

 

[blackcat]

There is more to football players than numbers.

What stats fail to account for is the things he does off the pill. BM mentioned it in his post, he uses his body to the advantage of his team by blocking the opponent providing a shepard. Therefore his value is unquantifiable and we should look past his numbers to get a reading on how valuable he is to our team. A bit like Nick Collison from your mob in the NBA .

Our midfield is a lot better with him in it than out, and he will make life easier for the likes of Dunstan, Newnes, Billings and a host of other young players while they continue to develop into AFL quality midfielders. And that is where I think his true value lies.

its also when you get the pill. I remember watching Bartel move himself into the guts over the past half dozen years when a game is on the line, and he would will the ball, thru sheer inimitable football IQ, he may not even win a posession, but he would influence a contest and the football would move into his teammates path. That one possession, or non-possession, is worth more than one-hundred possessions of someone on a back flank getting a cheap handpass off the ball. A one-possession, a single possie, could win the game. Arguably the most important possession of the game.

This would premise all other possessions are neutralised when teams are locking horns within one kick. Which could be philosophically undermined. But when the game is on the line, one-possession can have an elevated value, on both sides, losing and winning.

 

[TassieSaint]

I don't think Armo is underrated. He is a solid AFL level midfielder, and on that basis better than a majority of the leagues inside midfielders on numbers alone. But he is not, nor imo will he ever be, a star. Just because he 'excels' at one statistical category and lags behind in every other relevant one does not make him underrated.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I don't think Armo is underrated. He is a solid AFL level midfielder, and on that basis better than a majority of the leagues inside midfielders on numbers alone. But he is not, nor imo will he ever be, a star. Just because he 'excels' at one statistical category and lags behind in every other relevant one does not make him underrated.

So which "relevant stats" do you consider he lags behind in.
He's 83rd in the AFL for disposals/game. That's still above average.
45th for contested possessions/game is that relevant?

 

[dewah07]

If he was a picked at 35 no one would worry about him but for what we needed out of the value of the pick at the time, he hasn't met a lot of people's expectations

 

[gringo2011]

I thought 2013 was a real break out. He could have really cemented a reputation this year but the knee worked against his chance of getting the best out of himself. At the preseason training he was a really strong vocal leader and incredibly fit. I think because we waited so long we are seeing him as tainted somehow. Very good player at his best as shown by the drop off with Joey and Dal when the pressure is put on the guys who got more space once. He's having to work in tight with the stoppers coming to him and he's keeping up a good standard.

 

[TassieSaint]

So which "relevant stats" do you consider he lags behind in.
He's 83rd in the AFL for disposals/game. That's still above average.
45th for contested possessions/game is that relevant?

Yeah see Rahul's post basically, I'd agree that he's outside the top 40 inside mids in the game. There might be technically >80 inside mids on AFL lists at the moment and hence Armo is 'above average' in a numerical sense but if you discount rookies, 1-4 year players finding their feet, injury struck players where would that leave him?

He's an important player for us due to our dirth of players his age, but he would be a 5th - 6th string mid at a top 4 side, so yeah I'd rate him solidly average in a qualitative sense.

 

[Kildonan]

Armitage's value lies in his physicality and his willingness to do the hard stuff. He a good tough in and under mid who has adapted his game to minimise exposing his weaknesses (such as speed). His tackles are fierce and uncompromising. He hurts his opponents and makes them think twice about taking the ball in his sphere of influence. He took some time to build the tank required for AFL and injuries do have an adverse affect on his game because of his physicality but when on song he is a first or second string player.

I saw him play as a kid (was 2 years older than my son Damien), so saw a few local junior matches and attended state training camps but never dreamed that Armitage, Urquhart and Jamie Elliott all playing in the junior comp in Mackay would end up playing AFL.

I later saw Armitage playing for Morningside, then a QAFL side, now part of the NEAFL. Took notice only because he was from Mackay again it never occurred to me that a Mackay kid would be picked up in the AFL. Really took me by surprise when he was picked up by us.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yeah see Rahul's post basically, I'd agree that he's outside the top 40 inside mids in the game. There might be technically >80 inside mids on AFL lists at the moment and hence Armo is 'above average' in a numerical sense but if you discount rookies, 1-4 year players finding their feet, injury struck players where would that leave him?

He's an important player for us due to our dirth of players his age, but he would be a 5th - 6th string mid at a top 4 side, so yeah I'd rate him solidly average in a qualitative sense.

He gets a similar number of clearances to Mitchell, similar number of contested possessions as well.

His stats aren't much different to Liam Shiels or Will Langfords
He's way better than Sewell.

 

[saintbill]

Copy posting a post of mine re Armo from early October but...

Armo is not inside the top 80 for disposals averaged in 2014. He was equal 40th in contested possessions per game, outside the top 70 for effective disposals and outside the top 20 for clearances. He's considered a strong tackler, yet was also outside the top 70 for tackles per game last season. By these metrics I could suggest that Armitage is not a top 40 inside midfielder in the competition.

In a top 10 team in the comp, I don't think Armo starts at their center bounces. Don't get me wrong, I love what he's doing for us and think he's very important in the way he throws his body at the footy and takes knocks, but he wouldn't be an 'above average' midfielder.

Pretty much exactly this. Have a lot of respect for the guy, but if we did get to the point where we are close to competing for a flag in 2018, it is unlikely that Armo is still in the side.

 

[Big Mart]

That's not how people at the club see it.... He will be in the side in 2018.

More chance of that than us challenging for a flag.... Which if you read this forum is a fait accompli

 

[TassieSaint]

I agree BigMart, I think he will definitely still be in the side in 2018 (barring injury/trade) but if we are still relying on him as a number 1-4 option in the midfield at that point we will not be a top 4 side.

 

[Big Mart]

That's a more sensible comment IMO

He is not elite... But valuable

 

[ike2112]

Great points latterly - in some ways he is a barometer.

I feel the same way about Farren Ray in 2015 - if he's still best 22 towards season end then our youngsters aren't stepping up. Everyone raves about Wright, Webster, Newnes, Acres, Eli and Savage playing midfield, but if Farren Ray is still getting named on a wing (and playing half the game spare at the back) then they aren't cutting it.

 

[Nutsngum]

Thats a bit of an unfair dismissal of Farren Ray. No he isnt "elite" but he still ranks as a good midfielder who could find his way into most mid fields.

If our kids can muscle him out of a position before the 50 game mark then we are doing really damn well in development.

 

[ike2112]

Thats a bit of an unfair dismissal of Farren Ray. No he isnt "elite" but he still ranks as a good midfielder who could find his way into most mid fields.

If our kids can muscle him out of a position before the 50 game mark then we are doing really damn well in development.

I don't think Farren Ray gets a game at most other clubs.

And I think your second line is more of my point; as they approach 50 they ought to be taking his spot off him. Look at all the list of young players people say will be playing through midfield - Wright, Webster, Murdoch, Newnes, Savage, Eli, Billings, Acres. If none of them are able to take his place, can we accept maybe they aren't looking like playing MF?
If he's still starting in 2016 then we're not looking like developing an elite outside midfield...