Coach Fages and the coaching group

[Squizz89]

Reason???

Landsberger didn’t give a reason in his latest Woman’s Day article but threw it into an article about additional info on the “infamous” US trip.

 

[Kickback Flip]

Landsberger didn’t give a reason in his latest Woman’s Day article but threw it into an article about additional info on the “infamous” US trip.

Do you think the reason Daniel Rich and the Brisbane Lions have parted ways is because of the trip?

 

[Ceebee]

Fagan could have chosen to go down the recruiting/drafting mostly senior players, instead he chose to place his trust in youth development. He has done a masterful job of that. We are in a slump no doubt and it could be for reasons other than football, as we have recently learned.

Staythe course people, things will turn for us. Trust in Fagan.

Well said .

 

[BangyBangy]

Do you think the reason Daniel Rich and the Brisbane Lions have parted ways is because of the trip?

Yes, absolutely!!!! I saw Daniel Rich & ten of the Brisbane Lions' players from the Las Vegas trip in the closet making babies. And I saw one of the babies, and the baby looked at me.

 

[Squizz89]

Do you think the reason Daniel Rich and the Brisbane Lions have parted ways is because of the trip?

I think that’s the insinuation Landsberger wants people to make, but honestly I have no idea. I think it would be unlikely but who knows what to believe right now.

 

[buttermuffs]

They were the best players we had. We were very light on talent back then.

Pretty much why draftees walk in to the best 22 of every club at the bottom.

I looked back to our Round 1 2017 team and this is very insulting to Rohan Bewick, Tom Bell, Sam Mayes, Michael Close, and Ryan Lester.

Also I believe only three players have debuted in round one in their first season under Fagan. Rayner, Robertson (who was dropped next game after the big Covid break), and Ashcroft. Berry and McCluggage debuted in Round 3 2017, Bailey in Round 4 2018, Starcevich in Round 20 2018. They still didn’t walk in under Fagan, just had a lot less competition after performing in the reserves.

All these guys had moments of playing in odd positions they probably didn’t play in before. Ashcroft is an outlier, his skills are as an inside midfielder and was just incredibly good at it.

 

[mpal6]

Yes, absolutely!!!! I saw Daniel Rich & ten of the Brisbane Lions' players from the Las Vegas trip in the closet making babies. And I saw one of the babies, and the baby looked at me.

Start fracking them all for father sons / daughters. Priorities ppl !!

 

[mpal6]

I looked back to our Round 1 2017 team and this is very insulting to Rohan Bewick, Tom Bell, Sam Mayes, Michael Close, and Ryan Lester.

Also I believe only three players have debuted in round one in their first season under Fagan. Rayner, Robertson (who was dropped next game after the big Covid break), and Ashcroft. Berry and McCluggage debuted in Round 3 2017, Bailey in Round 4 2018, Starcevich in Round 20 2018. They still didn’t walk in under Fagan, just had a lot less competition after performing in the reserves.

All these guys had moments of playing in odd positions they probably didn’t play in before. Ashcroft is an outlier, his skills are as an inside midfielder and was just incredibly good at it.

Valid points- Fagan developed that initial core between 2016/17/18. But the challenge is once the core developed n settled - he's so wedded to his preferred players that its pretty hard for the also rans to get look in. Lyons got a really long run when out of form, Gunston/Rich had to drop themselves last season, Rayner has never played in 2s etc. While Fagan deserves the credit for what he has built and even got us to a grand final, he is not beyond criticism for his resolute backing of a bunch of players unless they become injured or unavailable for other reasons. It has held the coach back to a degree of realizing the full potential of this squad.

 

[martinson]

Seeing this is the coaching thread I'm not too much interested in what they did or didn't do or what the legacy is. The most important issue is what do we do now and what's best for our prospects for 25/6.

The first thing is to get cohesion and loyalty within the group if that doesn't exist in totality and start winning some games. We're getting it i/s 50 often enough to be winning already so I'd be working on what's preventing us from putting the score on the board aside from the obvious skill errors.

Second thing get our smalls to play as genuine crumbing smalls with someone in front of the pack ( anyone remember Lethal's message ,get Aker in front of Lynchy ??) and not flying for marks when we already have a tall up.

 

[briztoon]

Seeing this is the coaching thread I'm not too much interested in what they did or didn't do or what the legacy is. The most important issue is what do we do now and what's best for our prospects for 25/6.

The first thing is to get cohesion and loyalty within the group if that doesn't exist in totality and start winning some games. We're getting it i/s 50 often enough to be winning already so I'd be working on what's preventing us from putting the score on the board

The way we put it inside 50, and the work the forwards do, or do not do, to create space for easy marks. It shits me big time at how easy teams like Geelong mark the ball inside their forward 50, and in the 5 years of us being good, we haven't improved in this aspect one iota.

aside from the obvious skill errors.

Second thing get our smalls to play as genuine crumbing smalls with someone in front of the pack ( anyone remember Lethal's message ,get Aker in front of Lynchy ??) and not flying for marks when we already have a tall up.

This too.

 

[martinson]

The way we put it inside 50, and the work the forwards do, or do not do, to create space for easy marks. It sh!ts me big time at how easy teams like Geelong mark the ball inside their forward 50, and in the 5 years of us being good, we haven't improved in this aspect one iota.


This too.

It's a source of frustration for me how clogged up our forward line often is so we just bomb it and hope. We have talls who aren't particularly strong overhead yet they rarely lead or dummy lead. As to your point Hawkins seems to find space on his own multiple times a game, Is he that good ?

You can go into all the technicalities and players back and whatever other issues are behind it but the fact remains it keeps happening and there seem very few creative attempts on our part to undo the problem.

We should've won 2 games already that we just butchered once we got forward of centre.

It was all fine in the first quarter against Carlton before they realised there was a game on.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Seeing this is the coaching thread I'm not too much interested in what they did or didn't do or what the legacy is. The most important issue is what do we do now and what's best for our prospects for 25/6.

The first thing is to get cohesion and loyalty within the group if that doesn't exist in totality and start winning some games. We're getting it i/s 50 often enough to be winning already so I'd be working on what's preventing us from putting the score on the board aside from the obvious skill errors.

Second thing get our smalls to play as genuine crumbing smalls with someone in front of the pack ( anyone remember Lethal's message ,get Aker in front of Lynchy ??) and not flying for marks when we already have a tall up.

I think a lot of this speaks to the "fundamentals" Craig McRae was talking about this time last week.

Craig Bellamy is to me the best example of this, certainly in Australian sport, in my lifetime. In an era of salary cap restraints, his teams have backed up and been at the pointy end year after year after year. And the vast majority of the time their play has been solid without being spectacular. Don't forward pass out of dummy half, get through your sets without errors, kick well, chase well, don't miss tackles, pressure their kicker, defuse the kick, rinse and repeat. Do that often enough and you eventually score. You beat teams with less talent and you also beat teams who have more talent but less of that discipline. None of that is very exciting and doesn't require a great deal of skill and instinct, but every year, there's the Storm, in the top 4.

After Thursday night I've done a bit of thinking about what is the "fundamentals" in Aussie rules? It's probably a bit trickier to nail down given the more 3D nature of the sport, and Fly will probably list different things on his Collingwood whiteboard, but here's my attempt at it.

• Don't miss tackles (yes, I copied this one)
• If you miss a tackle, fix it up. Chase and pressure. The guy with the ball has to bounce it at some stage and this will slow him down.
• If we're not in possession, find an unmarked opponent. Ideally one who's a similar build to you, but not always possible immediately. Always know where he is. Keep him in your vision or maintain touch if he's behind.
• If you can't find an unmarked opponent (this is where the 3D comes into it - it's a complicated/chaotic game), flood back to fill up space. Fill up the defensive 50, then fill up the centre square. Like water into a bucket.
• When the ball comes your way, compete hard in the air. Don't get out marked. If in doubt, spoil. Preferably boundary side.
• If we win possession, don't miss targets less than 30m away. If in doubt, boot the stuffing out of it, long and slow down the line.

You will note that 5 of these 6 principles are all about defending. Watching this team would be incredibly boring. But I tell you what else, any team that adheres to these principles as the fundamentals of its game beats any team with less ability, and will also beat teams with more talent but less work rate. This team will play finals more often than not, regardless of any draft and salary cap restrictions. This team will be criticised on one hand for lacking dare and imagination, while being lauded and admired on the other for never giving up and getting the most out of themselves.

Right now these are the "fundamentals", the basics we need to go back to. Our guys are lacking confidence and trust in themselves and each other, probably for a whole host of reasons, so we need to strip everything right back and simplify the whole plan. This will mean being predictable to our opposition. But this a far lesser evil than being unpredictable to our team mates.

We are at this stage because we got over-confident in the 2nd quarter of the Carlton game. We flirted with our form and now we're finding it hard to get it back. This is why I've been at pains over the last few years to stress the importance of playing a full four quarters, particularly finishing games well. To be honest, I'm surprised we haven't been in this sort of mess more often, during that time.

Hopefully we are able to re-find our mojo. But you can't put the infinity pool on the roof if the foundations at ground level are rotting. And that's how the house looks right now. Just like any strong building, the foundations always need to be the priority.

 

[Grasshopper17]

The way we put it inside 50, and the work the forwards do, or do not do, to create space for easy marks. It sh!ts me big time at how easy teams like Geelong mark the ball inside their forward 50, and in the 5 years of us being good, we haven't improved in this aspect one iota.

It's a source of frustration for me how clogged up our forward line often is so we just bomb it and hope. We have talls who aren't particularly strong overhead yet they rarely lead or dummy lead. As to your point Hawkins seems to find space on his own multiple times a game, Is he that good ?

You can go into all the technicalities and players back and whatever other issues are behind it but the fact remains it keeps happening and there seem very few creative attempts on our part to undo the problem.

I agree with all this, but right now I believe we need to crawl before we try to walk again (RE my previous post). There were too many things I saw on Thursday night where it looked like the left hand wasn't talking to the right hand. Across the whole field.

I thought last season our ball movement going inside 50 was as good as it had been under Fagan. Which was probably reflected by our high conversion rate of inside 50s to scores. But I agree with you both: that has certainly not been the case this season.

 

[mpal6]

I think a lot of this speaks to the "fundamentals" Craig McRae was talking about this time last week.

Craig Bellamy is to me the best example of this, certainly in Australian sport, in my lifetime. In an era of salary cap restraints, his teams have backed up and been at the pointy end year after year after year. And the vast majority of the time their play has been solid without being spectacular. Don't forward pass out of dummy half, get through your sets without errors, kick well, chase well, don't miss tackles, pressure their kicker, defuse the kick, rinse and repeat. Do that often enough and you eventually score. You beat teams with less talent and you also beat teams who have more talent but less of that discipline. None of that is very exciting and doesn't require a great deal of skill and instinct, but every year, there's the Storm, in the top 4.

After Thursday night I've done a bit of thinking about what is the "fundamentals" in Aussie rules? It's probably a bit trickier to nail down given the more 3D nature of the sport, and Fly will probably list different things on his Collingwood whiteboard, but here's my attempt at it.

• Don't miss tackles (yes, I copied this one)
• If you miss a tackle, fix it up. Chase and pressure. The guy with the ball has to bounce it at some stage and this will slow him down.
• If we're not in possession, find an unmarked opponent. Ideally one who's a similar build to you, but not always possible immediately. Always know where he is. Keep him in your vision or maintain touch if he's behind.
• If you can't find an unmarked opponent (this is where the 3D comes into it - it's a complicated/chaotic game), flood back to fill up space. Fill up the defensive 50, then fill up the centre square. Like water into a bucket.
• When the ball comes your way, compete hard in the air. Don't get out marked. If in doubt, spoil. Preferably boundary side.
• If we win possession, don't miss targets less than 30m away. If in doubt, boot the stuffing out of it, long and slow down the line.

You will note that 5 of these 6 principles are all about defending. Watching this team would be incredibly boring. But I tell you what else, any team that adheres to these principles as the fundamentals of its game beats any team with less ability, and will also beat teams with more talent but less work rate. This team will play finals more often than not, regardless of any draft and salary cap restrictions. This team will be criticised on one hand for lacking dare and imagination, while being lauded and admired on the other for never giving up and getting the most out of themselves.

Right now these are the "fundamentals", the basics we need to go back to. Our guys are lacking confidence and trust in themselves and each other, probably for a whole host of reasons, so we need to strip everything right back and simplify the whole plan. This will mean being predictable to our opposition. But this a far lesser evil than being unpredictable to our team mates.

We are at this stage because we got over-confident in the 2nd quarter of the Carlton game. We flirted with our form and now we're finding it hard to get it back. This is why I've been at pains over the last few years to stress the importance of playing a full four quarters, particularly finishing games well. To be honest, I'm surprised we haven't been in this sort of mess more often, during that time.

Hopefully we are able to re-find our mojo. But you can't put the infinity pool on the roof if the foundations at ground level are rotting. And that's how the house looks right now. Just like any strong building, the foundations always need to be the priority.

Totally onboard with point 4. Run back twice as hard to defend. It'll solve a lot of issues.
If unsure just watch Papley before and after he kicks a goal. You'll 100% see him run faster during celebration than goal kicking. That's what we need to do for defending.

 

[Scubaveg]

I agree with most of what Buttermuffs posted and tbh anyone could see Coleman ,Payne ,Wilmot and Bailey were going to be Senior players and that Answerth was a bit of a liability.

Overall Fagan has done a really good job with what we had and been successful in recruiting some guns . We probably haven't been so successful in bringing on some players. But we've been in contention and when that's the case you play your best team. It's also conjectural whether they were/are any good anyway.

When you get injuries you find out about your depth. None of it's an exact science . It's easy to be critical. I just wish we'd won the flag last year and no one would have a problem. What we are missing are a couple of good solid second stringers who you know can plug holes when you cop injuries and maybe even become regulars. We need another Cal Ah Chee and Ryan Lester.

I think we’re another A grade mid and an A grade winger short of winning the whole lot. Don’t think we’ll win it all with that.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[McIvor]

Do you think the reason Daniel Rich and the Brisbane Lions have parted ways is because of the trip?

Something to do with a guy in a wheelchair and a kebab.

 

[Morbidly_Obese]

Sorry Sizey, but that's a harsh take.

Why hasn't he pumped games into youth that deserve it? We got within a kick of a premiership last year.

Give the guy some credit. In seven years we've gone from absolute laughing stock to grand final.

What does that mean? Just because he won a few finals that he has the job for life?

 

[Morbidly_Obese]

I think we’re another A grade mid and an A grade winger short of winning the whole lot. Don’t think we’ll win it all with that.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

If that is true then why the hell do we keep drafting flankers?

 

[McIvor]

The way we put it inside 50, and the work the forwards do, or do not do, to create space for easy marks. It shits me big time at how easy teams like Geelong mark the ball inside their forward 50, and in the 5 years of us being good, we haven't improved in this aspect one iota.


This too.

The big thing I see is that unlike Geelong and a few other teams is that they don’t have forward line players all flying for the same mark which it seems every entry everyone is flying. Guys like Rayner, McCarthy and Cameron all can take a specie, we’ve seen that, but time and time again they’re spoiling Joe and Eric and against Payne when I reckon he takes that mark late in that Blues game yet Rayner spoils him when he should have stayed down at the back.

I mean even against Freo we had Joe effectively dropping an easy mark because Ah Chee decided late to contest.

I don’t see Geelongs forwards all clamouring over one another for a mark. They’re aware of their surroundings and space unlike our forward and it really detrimental to us winning games and yes it is a knock of Fagan and our coaches because if a numpty like me knows this then why in the hell hasn’t this been addressed?

 

[martinson]

I think a lot of this speaks to the "fundamentals" Craig McRae was talking about this time last week.

Craig Bellamy is to me the best example of this, certainly in Australian sport, in my lifetime. In an era of salary cap restraints, his teams have backed up and been at the pointy end year after year after year. And the vast majority of the time their play has been solid without being spectacular. Don't forward pass out of dummy half, get through your sets without errors, kick well, chase well, don't miss tackles, pressure their kicker, defuse the kick, rinse and repeat. Do that often enough and you eventually score. You beat teams with less talent and you also beat teams who have more talent but less of that discipline. None of that is very exciting and doesn't require a great deal of skill and instinct, but every year, there's the Storm, in the top 4.

After Thursday night I've done a bit of thinking about what is the "fundamentals" in Aussie rules? It's probably a bit trickier to nail down given the more 3D nature of the sport, and Fly will probably list different things on his Collingwood whiteboard, but here's my attempt at it.

• Don't miss tackles (yes, I copied this one)
• If you miss a tackle, fix it up. Chase and pressure. The guy with the ball has to bounce it at some stage and this will slow him down.
• If we're not in possession, find an unmarked opponent. Ideally one who's a similar build to you, but not always possible immediately. Always know where he is. Keep him in your vision or maintain touch if he's behind.
• If you can't find an unmarked opponent (this is where the 3D comes into it - it's a complicated/chaotic game), flood back to fill up space. Fill up the defensive 50, then fill up the centre square. Like water into a bucket.
• When the ball comes your way, compete hard in the air. Don't get out marked. If in doubt, spoil. Preferably boundary side.
• If we win possession, don't miss targets less than 30m away. If in doubt, boot the stuffing out of it, long and slow down the line.

You will note that 5 of these 6 principles are all about defending. Watching this team would be incredibly boring. But I tell you what else, any team that adheres to these principles as the fundamentals of its game beats any team with less ability, and will also beat teams with more talent but less work rate. This team will play finals more often than not, regardless of any draft and salary cap restrictions. This team will be criticised on one hand for lacking dare and imagination, while being lauded and admired on the other for never giving up and getting the most out of themselves.

Right now these are the "fundamentals", the basics we need to go back to. Our guys are lacking confidence and trust in themselves and each other, probably for a whole host of reasons, so we need to strip everything right back and simplify the whole plan. This will mean being predictable to our opposition. But this a far lesser evil than being unpredictable to our team mates.

We are at this stage because we got over-confident in the 2nd quarter of the Carlton game. We flirted with our form and now we're finding it hard to get it back. This is why I've been at pains over the last few years to stress the importance of playing a full four quarters, particularly finishing games well. To be honest, I'm surprised we haven't been in this sort of mess more often, during that time.

Hopefully we are able to re-find our mojo. But you can't put the infinity pool on the roof if the foundations at ground level are rotting. And that's how the house looks right now. Just like any strong building, the foundations always need to be the priority.

I was thinking about your post which on paper at least makes perfect sense.

Everyone seems to think we need a winger or another midfielder or whatever else.

What we actually need is a few players who think they're stars to adhere strictly to the fundamentals that you outlined and our method and results would improve . Maybe dramatically

We have some otherwise good offensive plyers who give up when they don't have the ball ,or some hope of getting it.

I remember my great friend and colleague Mighty Lions saying our forward line was easily the best in the game ,no one could stop them . One of the problems could be that by thinking that they're stopping themselves.

Back to basics when you're a bit all over the place as we are now isn't a bad recipe for renewal.

 

[McIvor]

I was thinking about your post which on paper at least makes perfect sense.

Everyone seems to think we need a winger or another midfielder or whatever else.

What we actually need is a few players who think they're stars to adhere strictly to the fundamentals that you outlined and our method and results would improve . Maybe dramatically

We have some otherwise good offensive plyers who give up when they don't have the ball ,or some hope of getting it.

I remember my great friend and colleague Mighty Lions saying our forward line was easily the best in the game ,no one could stop them . One of the problems could be that by thinking that they're stopping themselves.

Back to basics when you're a bit all over the place as we are now isn't a bad recipe for renewal.

I still remember the great Leigh Matthew’s during our glory years is that everyone just had to play their role. Know your role, nothing more and execute it. Same for when the irregular players would get a game. They were simply asked to play their role.

I’m not sure that’s the case because going back to grasshoppers well thought out post and your martinson, which I agree with both, I think we have to get back to Leigh’s philosophy which I don’t see occurring particularly our forwards who all want to do everything. Perhaps that’s too simplistic but it worked back then for all players as individual which then fed into the overall teams objective.

 

[martinson]

I still remember the great Leigh Matthew’s during our glory years is that everyone just had to play their role. Know your role, nothing more and execute it. Same for when the irregular players would get a game. They were simply asked to play their role.

I’m not sure that’s the case because going back to grasshoppers well thought out post and your martinson, which I agree with both, I think we have to get back to Leigh’s philosophy which I don’t see occurring particularly our forwards who all want to do everything. Perhaps that’s too simplistic but it worked back then for all players as individual which then fed into the overall teams objective.

McCarthy and Ah Chee when he's there play like that.

The others see themselves as offensive weapons. Or at least they play as if they do.

I've seen forward lines function well with just one gun player. The rest focused on feeding him or stopping the opposition from taking it away . And making the most of their own offensive opportunities if they presented. They're probably extreme examples but we need more of that . Even the coach has said certain players are just out of form ,well the best way to get back into form is to stop worrying about what you're doing for yourself and just try at all times to do the team things . The smaller guys flying for speccies does my head in . You can see Charlie's not happy because he's not kicking goals , so just focus on your opponent not taking it away and sooner or later you'll get the opportunity to kick a goal.

 

[T Rick]

Daniel Rich gone from his position at the Lions.

Source?

 

[3KZ is Football]

Fagan was at the St.Kilda v Collingwood game taking notes and pretending to be a tactician. Then against Collingwood he goes tall at selection and we spend the game playing with a congested forward line, which was the exact opposite to how St.Kilda beat Collingwood.

Hopefully he is watching the Richmond v Sydney game today with someone who can explain what Sydney are doing with their second string midfield today. Perhaps he might think about adopting their game plan. Also noticing Sydney’s nice open forward line, with players who make space for each other and can hold their marks. It really makes a mockery of the time Fagan put into engineering a forward role for Darcy Gardiner

27

Darcy Gardiner

Age

28

Ht

192cm

Wt

91kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.6

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

5.2

4star

M

4.1

4star

T

2.1

4star

MG

196.1

3star

D

10.7

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

3.7

4star

T

2.1

3star

MG

196.1

3star

D

10.2

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.8

4star

, one of our most experienced defenders, in the preseason.

Look and learn Fages.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Fagan was at the St.Kilda v Collingwood game taking notes and pretending to be a tactician. Then against Collingwood he goes tall at selection and we spend the game playing with a congested forward line, which was the exact opposite to how St.Kilda best Collingwood.

Hopefully he is watching the Richmond v Sydney game today with someone who can explain what Sydney are doing with their second string midfield today. Perhaps he might think about adopting their game plan. Also noticing Sydney’s nice open forward line, with players who make space for each other and can hold their marks. It really makes a mockery of the time Fagan put into engineering a forward role for Darcy Gardiner, one of our most experienced defenders, in the preseason.

Look and learn Fages.

Maybe this question has already been answered but where the hell is Brandon Ryan?

After all this hype of him during pre-season, the guy hasn’t played in either of our reserves side but isn’t injured.