Scandal Hawthorn player questioned over sexual offence allegation

[Boourns]

Remember, Hawthorn only initially confirmed 'one' player was being investigated. Read into that what you will. They also specified it was not a premiership player. Read into that what you will.

 

[Off The Couch]

Remember, Hawthorn only initially confirmed 'one' player was being investigated. Read into that what you will. They also specified it was not a premiership player. Read into that what you will.

And then after consultation with police, Hawthorn then updated that statement to advise that another player was being investigated - read into that what you will.
They specified it was a premiership player - read into that what you will.

 

[Yellow Feathers]

People need to get this idea out of their head that the police are in the AFL's pocket. And for those who think this will be swept under the rug it's probably more of the complete opposite. I wouldn't be surprised to find that extra effort and resources have gone into this case given the profile of the accused. If the police can find the smoking gun piece of evidence and get a guilty verdict in court then it's a huge win and great publicity for the Victorian police. But as has been pointed out numerous times already there's rarely a smoking gun piece of evidence in a rape accusation case. Plenty of time will likely be needed for the police to put together a solid enough case that could hold up in court. And even then there's no guarantee they'll be able to form it at all - but it won't be for a lack of trying.

How is life in the clouds? Ignorance is bliss, after all.

 

[cryptor]

How is life in the clouds? Ignorance is bliss, after all.

My dad's mate from back when they were teens was locked up about 12 years ago for the murder of his own wife. Despite witnesses who heard the murder, police finding the murder weapon with his prints on it as well as his confession it still took police a considerable amount of time to finalize their investigation.

So given in this instance we apparently have no witnesses to the alleged crime, no apparent "smoking gun" evidence and no admission of guilt for the alleged crime then it stands to this reason that this investigation will take even longer. And it shouldn't be surprising if it concludes without charges laid due to a lack of evidence.

But no of course, anything less than charges laid and a guilty verdict handed down on the back of an accusation alone is a sure sign of police corruption and a conspiracy.

This is real life buddy, not Law & Order SVU.

 

[JD Tomahawk]

SVU was riveting TV I must admit.

 

[Realtrublu]

Theoretically how long could this investigation go for before the public know if there is charges or it gets dropped?
Real question, not trolling.

Real answer. It could take some time, especially if the police seek an opinion from a Crown Prosecutor as to whether the evidence that they have gathered justifies the laying of charges. Given the recent history of prosecutions against footballers failing the police should be very cautious about laying charges.

 

[spudmaster]

Theoretically how long could this investigation go for before the public know if there is charges or it gets dropped?
Real question, not trolling.

If it takes the ASADA/WADA/CAS route, then I'd speculate around the same time as Y3K hits.

 

[sprockets]

My dad's mate from back when they were teens was locked up about 12 years ago for the murder of his own wife. Despite witnesses who heard the murder, police finding the murder weapon with his prints on it as well as his confession it still took police a considerable amount of time to finalize their investigation.

So given in this instance we apparently have no witnesses to the alleged crime, no apparent "smoking gun" evidence and no admission of guilt for the alleged crime then it stands to this reason that this investigation will take even longer. And it shouldn't be surprising if it concludes without charges laid due to a lack of evidence.

But no of course, anything less than charges laid and a guilty verdict handed down on the back of an accusation alone is a sure sign of police corruption and a conspiracy.

This is real life buddy, not Law & Order SVU.

When you say 'we' don't have that evidence or an admission of guilt, who exactly are you talking about?

 

[cryptor]

When you say 'we' don't have that evidence or an admission of guilt, who exactly are you talking about?

'We' as in the Victorian Police who are public servants of the people of Victoria and so by extension the public.

The same sort of 'we' you (maybe), I and many others use when we describe actions of our clubs despite having no real controlling power or influence.
Ie. "We traded our best player", "we don't play well in humidity", etc.

 

[sprockets]

'We' as a football club is very different to 'we' as in things that happen outside it. 'We' don't really know the facts of this case do 'we'.

 

[Wil79]

 

[cryptor]

'We' as a football club is very different to 'we' as in things that happen outside it. 'We' don't really know the facts of this case do 'we'.

I think most reasonably sensible people would have understood what I meant by 'we' in that context.

 

[sprockets]

We understood what you meant, which is why we asked the question, just to make sure we knew where we were coming from. In other words, people commenting from both sides have no idea of what happened.

 

[sprockets]

I saw that and had a quiet chuckle. Hawks supporters = , everyone else =

 

[Wil79]

I saw that and had a quiet chuckle. Hawks supporters = , everyone else =

My is at the whole thread. It's like a party has cleared out and there are two drunk guys left at the table arguing about politics.

 

[Boourns]

My is at the whole thread. It's like a party has cleared out and there are two drunk guys left at the table arguing about politics.

Oh I'm sure there are some "very" dangerous individuals still lingering in the corners of the bar.

 

[Wil79]

 

[sprockets]

My is at the whole thread. It's like a party has cleared out and there are two drunk guys left at the table arguing about politics.

Your post only reinforces mine.

 

[Wil79]

Your post only reinforces mine.

Not really cos I am rolling my eyes at Hawks supporters too.

 

[Donners]

. Given the recent history of prosecutions against footballers failing the police should be very cautious about laying charges.

One plea and one acquittal is not a recent history of failure, if we're going by AFL players.

Getting discharged at committal is a failure, getting an acquittal at trial is pretty normal on the stats for sex offences (~50% acquittal rate), and particularly with the law in the state that it was for the Lovett trial - very fortuitously for him.

Theoretically how long could this investigation go for before the public know if there is charges or it gets dropped?
Real question, not trolling.

Well, some sex offence investigations can take several years, but that's often because they fall behind other matters in priority. Something tells me that this will not fall into that category.

Generally a few months to put together a brief and go through the authorisation process, longer if they refer it for advice (that alone can take several months, again depending on where it falls in priority).

Some obvious ones can be charged early, particularly where there is a perceived risk to the public, and the brief follows along a few months later (eg. the Geelong one which has been in the media lately).

It all depends on what sort of evidence they need to gather. eCrime analysis can be extraordinarily slow, and phone records can be a bugger to sort out.

 

[Mr Lizard]

The Hawthorn fans

We are legion.

 

[cryptor]

The Hawthorn fans are obviously going to be nothing but supportive of the players and you can't really blame them. The two football codes are like religions to Australians these days - I remember visiting my Grandpa's grave in Queanbeyan cemetary and seeing all these graves flying the flags of the deceased's team stationed on or next to them.

Majority of Hawks fans support is conditional on the current assumption of innocence. I'd expect that to drop considerably if charges are ever laid - particularly if any details of damning evidence come to light before a potential trial.

This isn't a footy issue. It just so happens with some people that they're prepared to take a stance on this based on footy allegiances. That's just a maturity thing perhaps.

 

[bigblackboz]

Majority of Hawks fans support is conditional on the current assumption of innocence. I'd expect that to drop considerably if charges are ever laid - particularly if any details of damning evidence come to light before a potential trial.

This isn't a footy issue. It just so happens with some people that they're prepared to take a stance on this based on footy allegiances. That's just a maturity thing perhaps.

Everyone interprets the evidence to suit themselves. Hawks fans will be no different. It's an alleged sexual crime, there is rarely any smoking gun evidence. Hence, they will take the player's side. Let's not forget that everyone drink drives.

 

[Realtrublu]

One plea and one acquittal is not a recent history of failure, if we're going by AFL players.

Getting discharged at committal is a failure, getting an acquittal at trial is pretty normal on the stats for sex offences (~50% acquittal rate), and particularly with the law in the state that it was for the Lovett trial - very fortuitously for him.



Well, some sex offence investigations can take several years, but that's often because they fall behind other matters in priority. Something tells me that this will not fall into that category.

Generally a few months to put together a brief and go through the authorisation process, longer if they refer it for advice (that alone can take several months, again depending on where it falls in priority).

Some obvious ones can be charged early, particularly where there is a perceived risk to the public, and the brief follows along a few months later (eg. the Geelong one which has been in the media lately).

It all depends on what sort of evidence they need to gather. eCrime analysis can be extraordinarily slow, and phone records can be a bugger to sort out.

Correct me if I am wrong but both former AFL players were charged with rape. One player was acquitted after trial by jury. The other player, Milne, pleaded guilty to indecent assault and the rape charge was dropped. If that is so then my original comment is correct. In my view, juries are very unlikely to convict a player of rape if the sexual act occurs after a period of heavy partying and the voluntary ingestion of intoxicants, whether alcohol or drugs, by the player and the female complainant.

 

[Donners]

Correct me if I am wrong but both former AFL players were charged with rape. One player was acquitted after trial by jury. The other player, Milne, pleaded guilty to indecent assault and the rape charge was dropped. If that is so then my original comment is correct. In my view, juries are very unlikely to convict a player of rape if the sexual act occurs after a period of heavy partying and the voluntary ingestion of intoxicants, whether alcohol or drugs, by the player and the female complainant.

True, but lesser charges are often a feature of resolutions, otherwise the incentive to plead is limited.

Neither heavy partying nor intoxicants were a factor for the complainant in Milne (the players, on the other hand, were quite drunk). The primary issue there was the botched initial investigation and authorisation process.

Alleged sex offences where the complainant was intoxicated are notoriously hard to prosecute, so the Lovett matter is by no means unusual in that respect (and even then, it got a huge benefit from a terrible Court of Appeal decision which was later overturned by the High Court - Lovett was actually considered to be a very strong case, but that may have tipped the balance).

Don't get me wrong; it's hard to prosecute any high-profile person for this stuff. The examples which come to mind of a politician, two lawyers and Aboriginal leader didn't even make it past committal. As I said, getting to trial is actually an achievement for AFL players.