NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[blackshadow]

You've posted many times in thread and dont seem to have a grasp on even the basics you would pick up watching TV shows about lawyers. Rumpole was probably the best.

Rumpole was good but here’s your man…

 

[Back Pocket Rocket]

strip them of picks and fine them

 

[HairyO]

I'm struggling with that as well

Can't see exactly why Hawks FC would get sanctioned

For embarrassing Gil during Grand Final week.

That is literally the only reason for any sanctions. The timing of the ABC article made him look bad.

Hawthorn tried to do the right thing. If the AFL punish that why would any other club bother looking at their own practices?

 

[Osho]

I'm struggling with that as well

Can't see exactly why Hawks FC would get sanctioned

I can see why they would be sanctioned by the AFL, for improper staff management, care, lack of protocols and delineation of roles of support, versus performance etc., and overstepping work related considerations into personal matters. They have player statements.

However, this is not what Gil said, he focused on the review process as far as I could see, which is perverse, and narrow, and avoiding the crux of issue.

 

[HairyO]

I can see why they would be sanctioned by the AFL, for improper staff management, care, lack of protocols and delineation of roles of support, versus performance etc., and overstepping work related considerations into personal matters. They have player statements.

However, this is not what Gil said, he focused on the review process as far as I could see, which is perverse, and narrow, and avoiding the crux of issue.

I assume they also go after the AFLPA given they are the body that are meant to actively protect the players and continue to protect them beyond their AFL careers.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Gill seems most perturbed by the leaking of the report which, reading between the lines, he levels at Hawthorn.

What would have been Hawthorn's motives to do that?

 

[Chief]

They can’t, what they want to say is in the player records, which are confidential.

Why didn't they keep diaries of their own?

 

[HairyO]

Gill seems most perturbed by the leaking of the report which, reading between the lines, he levels at Hawthorn.

What would have been Hawthorn's motives to do that?

Hawthorn? None. Kennett sticking the knife in to Clarko? Some.

Why didn't they keep diaries of their own?

So where ever you work you do all your work stuff on work infrastructure, and then also keep a separate copy of the work stuff for home?

 

[Elixuh]

For embarrassing Gil during Grand Final week.

That is literally the only reason for any sanctions. The timing of the ABC article made him look bad.

Hawthorn tried to do the right thing. If the AFL punish that why would any other club bother looking at their own practices?

Hawthorn has severely compromised pathways for players to speak up about poor treatment. How encouraged do you think anyone would be to do so when they see how hawthorn has managed it?

 

[brooksnk]

Why didn't they keep diaries of their own?

Is this a serious question?

Also note you have conveniently ignored my earlier reply in this thread to your previous question…

 

[Elixuh]

Why didn't they keep diaries of their own?

Lol who keeps a diary at work
Also while the records would be contemporaneous you would still need the players records for corroboration anyway

 

[nineteen eighty]

I'm still not sure to this day who within Hawthorn kicked off this report? Are there minutes of Board meetings (leaked?) where it was discussed that because of what played out with Rioli in the media, it would be a good idea to kick off this report. And what were the Terms of Reference? These types of things don't kick off without clearly defined Terms of Reference.

There's nothing wrong with conducting a report such as this by the way. The way it played out afterwards with the leak to Jackson etc... was wrong. I still to this day wonder who leaked it to Jackson. Was it the same person who kicked off the report?

What a clusterfck for ALL concerned. Not one winner in all of this.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I'm still not sure to this day who within Hawthorn kicked off this report? Are there minutes of Board meetings (leaked?) where it was discussed that because of what played out with Rioli in the media, it would be a good idea to kick off this report. And what were the Terms of Reference? These types of things don't kick off without clearly defined Terms of Reference.

There's nothing wrong with conducting a report such as this by the way. The way it played out afterwards with the leak to Jackson etc... was wrong. I still to this day wonder who leaked it to Jackson. Was it the same person who kicked off the report?

What a clusterfck for ALL concerned. Not one winner in all of this.

If you are looking at who leaked the report, best thing would be to look at the motivation- who benefits from the leak.

Suggestion on Hawks board is that there is knowledge as to who the leaker is.

 

[sr36]

You are delusional.

Like I said the 30000 pages of evidence gathered by the independant tribunal including comments from the accusers has not found any RACISM.

AT worst they found some incenitivities in how advise may have been given.

That is why they wanted to mediate and try and force the accused to admit to some indiscretions.

The accused rightly so refused because the allegations and HEADLINES if you recall were RACISM and THEY WANTED ME TO KILL MY BABY. The accused owe nothing to the accusers for the out of hand storytelling that has taken place.

It has now been proven through the 30000 pages that there was no actual RACISM.

End of story.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

It's a footy club. Do you really think they documented all discussions with players? And if they did, do you really think their documentation is going to say - We coerced player X to break up with his girlfriend?

The big claimants weren't even part of the inquiry.By the sounds of it they're going to the human's rights Commission instead.

Like all AFL inquiries that I can think of - Essendon drugs, Melbourne tanking, we've got a negotiated outcome without a negative finding.

 

[HairyO]

Hawthorn has severely compromised pathways for players to speak up about poor treatment. How encouraged do you think anyone would be to do so when they see how hawthorn has managed it?

The report found a bunch of things and recommended giving it to the AFL - as per the AFL's guidelines.

The AFL then sat on it for 2 weeks hoping the story would stay hidden until after the Grand Final.

Someone leaked the report to the ABC and the players and families decided to talk to the ABC because the AFL were doing nothing and they wanted to be heard.

Which of the above is the fault of Hawthorn and which is the fault of the AFL?

It's a footy club. Do you really think they documented all discussions with players? And if they did, do you really think their documentation is going to say - We coerced player X to break up with his girlfriend?

The big claimants weren't even part of the inquiry.By the sounds of it they're going to the human's rights Commission instead.

Like all AFL inquiries that I can think of - Essendon drugs, Melbourne tanking, we've got a negotiated outcome without a negative finding.

Why didnt they go to the HRC 9 months ago? What are they waiting for? They had zero faith in the AFL but also were waiting for the AFL?

If they want justice surely they go once the ABC story is released.

I'll be surprised if any take it to the HRC.

 

[tassietime]

I know there are those who nailed their colours to the racism mast who are now experiencing cognitive dissonance. I feel for you, but you were wrong. This statement from Chris Fagan would have been cleared by a lawyer and is ‘game over’ on the allegations.

FULL CHRIS FAGAN STATEMENT

I refer to the public statement issued tonight by the AFL concerning the Hawthorn investigation.

The investigation has now been terminated, with the agreement of the complainants and the investigation panel. It is right that this should occur. It is long overdue.

I have maintained my public silence on the issues raised publicly because I was bound to confidentiality by the rules of the AFL investigation. It has been a very distressing several months for me since these allegations were first published by the ABC without the investigation that was conducted having asked for my version of events.

I am innocent of any of the allegations made against me and always have been.

I have been in footy for a long time - most of my life. In that time I have had the interests of the welfare of my players as my foremost consideration. I have treated all players with equality and fairness.

I have always respected the tremendous contribution that First Nations people have made to our game and I respect them greatly. I always have. I always will. And I am conscious that this farce of a process cannot have been easy on those First Nations people who were complainants. Those whom I knew, I hold no grudges against and hold only a wish that whatever pain they are suffering can be healed over time.

The combination of the AFL investigation, the ABC article that was published making very serious allegations against me, and the leaks that have occurred to the press, have amounted to a travesty of justice. It has caused tremendous hurt to me, those who care about me, and other people whom I know to be innocent of wrongdoing, such as Clarko and Jason Burt. These are fine men and they have been publicly shamed by false allegations.

The complainants, the investigation panel and the AFL have agreed that no adverse findings have been made against me, Alastair Clarkson and Jason Burt, and that no charges will be brought against any of us under the AFL Rules. It has been further agreed by the complainants, the panel and the AFL that the matters the subject of the investigation will not be investigated further by the panel.

These matters are also fully justified. I have always categorically denied all of the allegations against me. The allegations are false. I am completely innocent. I have never deviated from that position as I knew from the beginning that the allegations were false. I have never had my chance to publicise my position on the allegations that the ABC chose to air publicly.

Prior to the agreement referred to above being reached, the documents held by Hawthorn that the complainants had refused to release to me were released to me, very recently, with their consent. Those same documents were in the possession of both the investigation panel and the AFL for consideration by those parties for a significant time prior to their release to me. I am bound by a confidentiality deed not to disclose the contents of the documents. But I can say that they support the categorical denials of the allegations against me that I have stated from the outset. I can also say that for my part, I would be completely happy for all of these documents to be made public.

I am happy for any of my conduct and any documents to be aired publicly in a public court or proper public process and let someone impartial decide what is true and what is false.

I am not a party to the agreement between the complainants, the investigation panel and the AFL. But I stand vindicated by it.

I have made no concessions. There are none to make. I have always vigorously defended myself, and will always do so, as I have done nothing wrong.

I am proud of my record, built up over four decades, of nourishing not just the football careers but also the lives of the young people I have coached. This includes all of the First Nations players I have been fortunate enough to coach.

I have from the start received countless messages of support, including from very many First Nations players I coached at Hawthorn, Melbourne and now at the Brisbane Lions. I wish to take the opportunity to thank all of the people who have supported me. The investigation has taken a very damaging toll on my family and me, and the many people involved in the investigation. I am glad that it has finally been brought to an end.

 

[MagpieJo]

AFL can cover their pathetic arse however they want, the accused will be forever tarred with the racist brush, this was a debacle.

the real question should have been was the racism any worse at the time than in any other club or area of society? Lets acknowledge that history is not pleasant when it comes to the behaviour of humans.

Lots of sorrys have been said, from experience sorry doesn’t really do much, only change of behaviour does. move forward and do better.

 

[4cunningTonneTruck]

5. Ex players to progress through to Human Rights Commission

Would this bring their identities and all information out in the public? I'm not too familiar with how the HRC works.

 

[madmug]

Certainly an awful situation. We were not in the room, so to speak.

We don't know whether there were/were not straight out directions by Hawk officials to do anything thats been alleged. I haven't hung off every word about this, simply because it started as a he said, she said sort of thing.

It may well be a matter of perception. Something where messages & communication is misunderstood/misconstrued. Then one party or other stews over things & relationships within the club sour. Then no one listens, every interaction gets 'coloured' & tainted so to speak.

We don't know. Whatever, it's a painful lesson for the Hawks, but also all clubs & sports organisations that clear messaging, appropriate messaging is just so important.

Not to say that coaches can't swear or raise their voices. Its when anything about non specifically football issues, or personal relationships with others that may need to be discussed, need third party involvement & record keeping.

Anyway I hope all parties can move on from sad & difficult situation.

Of course the matter of possible leaks about the investigations which may yet cause more repercussions.

 

[blackshadow]

If you are looking at who leaked the report, best thing would be to look at the motivation- who benefits from the leak.

This.

These are my thoughts.

I think we can cross the AFL off the list of leakers as they'd have nothing to gain.

That leaves either someone at Hawthorn or someone at or associated with Binmada or someone that Egan interviewed as part of his investigation.

The actual report may not have been leaked but enough relevant information and names of those involved obviously found their way to Jackson. It's possible that the leaker used a third party as a cut-out to pass the info to Jackson.

Who at Hawthorn would benefit? Someone wanting to smear Clarko?

Who at or associated Binmada would benefit? I'm not sure on this one but it seems to be the type of issue that Peter Jess would blow up in the media based on his past history and he has been associated with Jackson in his Rod Owens story. Player advocate Peter Jess says St Kilda abuse scandal 'beyond comprehension', Rod Owen 'enraged'

One of those interviewed by Egan? Perhaps if they thought it would lead to compensation. If it was one of those interviewed it's very poor governance on behalf of Binmada/Hawthorn for the participants to have details of the report and names of other participants.

My bet is that the leak originated from either Hawthorn or Binmada but who exactly was the source is up for speculation.

 

[Papa G]

So I haven't really followed this particularly closely because it always seemed like a far fetched money grab, but in a nut shell: Some outrageous claims are made by some former no name indigenous players against some former Hawthorn coaching greats. Hawthorn s**t themselves and hire a corrupt and biased indigenous chap to write a report taking in only one side of story from former disgruntled no name indigenous players. Hawthorn read report, s**t themselves, hand report to AFL hoping all blame will be apportioned to former Club great coaches and Hawthorn would be absolved by being the ones to identify the "racism" and call it out.

After former coaches fiercely deny claims and refuse to give an inch in terms of validating or mediation, months go past, and with the realisation the claims against the coaches are at best unprovable, at worst complete bullshit, former coaches are exonerated completely.

Now for the AFL, the optics of this still look bad for them. The teeth gnashers who called for the former coaches to be hung drawn and quartered without due process, still need to be satisfied. The Zeitgeist clearly demands it. So who is left to blame? The answer is Hawthorn.

Talk about an own goal.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Hawthorn? None. Kennett sticking the knife in to Clarko? Some.



So where ever you work you do all your work stuff on work infrastructure, and then also keep a separate copy of the work stuff for home?

How would kennett have received a copy? The time the report was handed over, growers was prez.
Could kennett have worded up Jackson, maybe, but even then, abc and kennett are not friends.

And as for keeping your own records. I learned the hard way you're screwed if you don't keep your own records when it comes to bullying

 

[Elixuh]

The report found a bunch of things and recommended giving it to the AFL - as per the AFL's guidelines.

The AFL then sat on it for 2 weeks hoping the story would stay hidden until after the Grand Final.

Someone leaked the report to the ABC and the players and families decided to talk to the ABC because the AFL were doing nothing and they wanted to be heard.

Which of the above is the fault of Hawthorn and which is the fault of the AFL?



Why didnt they go to the HRC 9 months ago? What are they waiting for? They had zero faith in the AFL but also were waiting for the AFL?

If they want justice surely they go once the ABC story is released.

I'll be surprised if any take it to the HRC.

The whole process of the review was amateur hour by hawthorn.

Do you think the complainants were told their information would be given to the afl and other parties? I would bet good money they weren’t and the fact that their lawyers are raising that the information was disclosed to the afl and other parties without the complainants consent tells you all you need to know.

We shouldn’t kid ourselves, hawthorn thought this would be some kind of check box exercise for them after the Rioli issues.

Standing behind a horrendous process on the basis of they tried to do the right thing is not great reasoning.

 

[phantom13]

The reality of this situation is that its just a really sad saga for the complainants and the accused.

Id have to imagine the intention of the initial report would have been similar to the Collingwood report, seek out our recent and historical issues with race and cultural insensitivity in order to learn and "do better" moving forward.

Id also anticipate that absolutely no one thought the issues raised would be so abhorrent and concerning and when they were no one really knew what to do about it.

I feel for Fagan and Clarkson in the sense that the only way they could really have cleared their names would be through thorough due process but i also feel for the complainants and completely understand their concern that there would be no action. In the end theyve kind of been proven right.

I think all clubs probably have an obligation to complete a review of this nature but i also think the only way youll get any real truth and outcome would be for their to be an amnesty on alleged offenders (make it about learning not punishment) but then you really are asking our Indigenous and non white footballers to tell their story again to help educate us and again, if the stories are along the same severity, or potentially worse, than the hawks one, these investigations are going to be completely unequipped to deal with them.

I think overall the intention of these investigations and reports is right, learn from the mistakes of the past, but the intent and procedure to deal with the outcomes is lacking.

 

[a_fighting_fury]

Swept under the rug, not the AFL’S problem any more.

Was always going to happen. That's the AFL way.

The AFL were simply focused on protecting their brand, so this outcome was always going to be their priority and in the League’s best interest. Any other option would risk sullying them even further after the recent Collingwood-Lumumba racism debacle.

This imo is far from over.