NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

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Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Royce Hafey]

From the perspective of where this falls in regards to how to implement a sanction.

Melbourne fell under tanking.
Essendon under doping rules.
This Hawthorn incident comes under welfare management. That in itself is more so part of the admin side of the club than the on-field results.

You've simplified it too much. I'm not at all dismissing the gravity of it. It's abhorrent.

It's worse than any of these in my opinion. Of course I'm biased because I'm both indigenous and a historian, so when I see a senior figure tell an Aboriginal employee to abort their kids I can't help but think that the genocide is still going on, which I know is a bit Godwin's Law of me, but there you go. And describing it as an "administrative error" made it sound like someone mis-filed something, or failed to sign some papers. As to the more substantial question of whether to sanction clubs or individuals, my guiding principle is how to make sure this doesn't happen again. The individuals need to be punished because, if they're not, all the wrong signals will be given, but the punishment is not the main thing. I would like to see, just to give one example, that all clubs with Indigenous players are mandated to have an Indigenous welfare officer. That would be a start. Not having antiquated reactionary dinosaurs as club presidents or pampered scions of the squattocray in charge of the AFL would be nice as well - but I'm not sure how we could manage that short of the revolution.

 

[MrSwannee84]

In all honesty I think the AFL needs to wield a far bigger stick to Hawthorn than they gave to Carlton in 2000 for their cap rorting. This is far worse.

Kick them out of the draft for 5 years and take all picks away and hand them a $2m fine at the very least.

On SM-G781B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Chief]

I would like to see, just to give one example, that all clubs with Indigenous players are mandated to have an Indigenous welfare officer.

I would say centralise it under the AFL so the clubs can't influence the officer or pick one that won't make waves.

 

[bzparkes]

If we're going to play that game, most of those countries aren't built on stealing land from their original inhabitants, massacring them and taking away their children. And if they are (like for example, Japan with the Ainu), then maybe you could bring that up on a day we're not focusing on racism against Aboriginal people.

Off-topic but every country today was founded on a stronger nation building their reign on the bones of the previous occupants.

Ours is just more recent.

On-topic, obviously those involved shouldn't work in the AFL again if the allegations are proven true. Nobody can claim 'ignorance' in this day and age, like some current media personalities ha e done when they racially insulted players in the 90s(Brereton & Lyon spring to mind)

I'll put my pitchfork away until that happens however.

 

[Hoops]

Aside from how obviously disgusting this all reads, I can’t fathom how the coaches actually thought it was a good idea to cut these players off from their families.

What kind of thought process leads to a conclusion that terminating pregnancies, breaking up with partners and cutting ties with families will help a player settle into a club and concentrate on their football?

Surely having a player happy and benefiting from family support so not wanting to constantly rush back home has to be a good thing, yes?

Put's in perspective about only wearing sleeveless guernseys, which I thought was strict.

 

[sr36]

I think after the failure of the COllingwood and now Hawthorn "independent" investigations, we can do away with such charades as the cover-ups they're designed to be.

How was the Collingwood review a sham? It looked at Collingwood's responses to a series of racial incidents and concluded systems and responses disadvantaged people of colour and made a raft of suggestions for improvement.

 

[westie]

If we're going to play that game, most of those countries aren't built on stealing land from their original inhabitants, massacring them and taking away their children. And if they are (like for example, Japan with the Ainu), then maybe you could bring that up on a day we're not focusing on racism against Aboriginal people.

Erm, how about the American Indian tribes!

 

[BrisbaneBlue]

Quite literally, the alleged perpetrators aren't at the club anymore.

It sucks for your club. The timing could not be any worse.

What is gained by punishing a completely innocent group of people 10 years later when the incidents appear isolated to 3 individuals? It will be those individuals who should be anticipating the biggest sanctions.

The club potentially benefitted from unethical and abhorrent behaviour. They potentially got premierships and revenue over that period due to this overreach. The club can't walk free with no ramifications as the club is a legal entity in its own right. The governance was poor and people were impacted by this poor governance. The people involved need repercussions, but the club benefitted at the time due to the actions of these people and they were paid by the club.

 

[Soapy V]

Travelled overseas much?

I served overseas and the military for over 25 years. I have travelled extensively. I also have Indigenous family. If people think Australia is a racist country you need to get out more. Australia is one of the most tolerant countries in the world and I am tired of people putting it down

 

[Sphynx]

I would say centralise it under the AFL so the clubs can't influence the officer or pick one that won't make waves.

Is racism limited to first nations individuals?

In fact, Sudanese players and their rapid growth within the game loom as a major welfare issue for the AFL in the next 20 years.

 

[Crusty Demon]

Taking a slightly different approach, are AFL clubs required to record any "sensitive" discussion they have with a player? I know at my workplace, HR would be all over making sure that such a discussion is recorded properly. Furthermore, are AFL clubs required to have an Indigenous liaison present when having these discussions with a First Nations player?

Aren't there emails confirming some of this stuff? Pretty sure I read that somewhere that the journo read some emails that confirmed what the players were saying. Possibly some dude at Hawthorn deleting evidence right now as we speak. It just becomes a he said she said game like the one Collingwood played with Lamumba unless there is refutable evidence or one of these blokes gets a guilty conscience and gives them all up. No doubt some s*** things were done and said, but perspective is everything i guess. The coming days will be interesting. Feel for the Cats and Swans. Neutrals have lost interest in the game as of this morning.

 

[sleep]

Surely Hawthorn FC cant play for premiership points next year.

 

[Pie eyed]

I am more worried clubs will go back to the past now and stop drafting indigenous players. that Would be a sad day.

Wouldn't that be a regressive step and nothing but "victim blaming"?

Why wouldn't the clubs stop employing and/or tolerating racists and establish an indigenous player program staffed by culturally aware people, designed to attract indigenous players with great support and well designed programs?

The AFL could make expenditure on such programs exempt for the hard and soft caps, if they are not already.

Times like today are times to make change for the better.
This report is looking backward true, there may be retribution to be had, but any outcomes should be forward looking.

Collingwood despite whatever their past record, have invited former players back to help them make things better for the next generation of indigenous players and several have accepted.


I won't be railing against hawthorn alone,
Australia as a whole bears the responsibility for the past.
We have a chance to make it better, we should use it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

This has nothing to do with tribalism and frankly it is beyond my care about Hawthorns past success.

Your clubs coaches are being alleged of coercing a player to end his unborn child's life.

if you cant grasp the seriousness of this. Stop posting.

if Essendon FC needs to own what we did, Hawthorn FC needs to own what they did.

Jeff Kennett made a joke to Cyril Rioli's wife, which they both construed as racist.
After some time Kennett was able to discuss it with Rioli, where he understood that there was a history of "gaslamping" with the club , that had contributed to their reaction.

Kennett initiated an investigation into racism at the club.

The results were obtained, and upon reading them, were forwarded to the AFL integrity unit.

To me that's owning it.

Essendon are still going round saying they did nothing wrong.

 

[Lord of the Wings]

If Gill said they've only had it a week someone is telling porkies? Pretty sure I know who also

By Simon Smale

Hawthorn says it offered support immediately after report was received​

Peter Nankivell said the club was handed the report two weeks ago and immediately handed it to the AFL.
"The report that we received wasn't identified, so we are actually unaware of who the people and partners were," Nankivell said.
"What we have done from the minute the report was received was offer any support that we could do, whether that was immediate, and we have actually provided some support and some respite way prior to this ABC report even being surfaced."

 

[Soapy V]

In all honesty I think the AFL needs to wield a far bigger stick to Hawthorn than they gave to Carlton in 2000 for their cap rorting. This is far worse.

Kick them out of the draft for 5 years and take all picks away and hand them a $2m fine at the very least.

On SM-G781B using BigFooty.com mobile app

So they are guilty?

 

[JyeDye]

I served overseas and the military for over 25 years. I have travelled extensively. I also have Indigenous family. If people think Australia is a racist country you need to get out more. Australia is one of the most tolerant countries in the world and I am tired of people putting it down

Just because other countries are worse doesn't excuse ours. Terrible mindset.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Taking a slightly different approach, are AFL clubs required to record any "sensitive" discussion they have with a player? I know at my workplace, HR would be all over making sure that such a discussion is recorded properly. Furthermore, are AFL clubs required to have an Indigenous liaison present when having these discussions with a First Nations player?

Should They need to? Are we not suppose to be treating everyone as equals? Why should an indigenous player be treated any different than any other player? I thought we were trying to get away from this?

 

[Soapy V]

Just because other countries are worse doesn't excuse ours. Terrible mindset.

Didn't say that. Look at your own mindset before commenting

 

[DangerFyfe]

Perhaps a naive question, and I mean absolutely no offence, but I'm genuinely curious- how much of this was systematic racism? Literally everything, every article, every comment is about how this was overt, disgusting racism....however, wasnt the external review based solely on the treatment of first nations players? So while it reads like it was targeted treatment of only first nations players, that's what the review was looking into. It wasn't looking into how all draftees/players were treated.

I wonder if it was just widespread s**t bloke/win at all costs culture or if it was actually only the first nations boys who copped it? It's obviously horrible either way, and absolutely should never have occurred - I'd just be curious to know how many players were impacted and if it was only/mainly indigenous players.

 

[HawkMongrel]

Gee the people behind this story better not have put any mayo on it.

Because if they have there are going to be some gargantuan legal consequences.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Taking a slightly different approach, are AFL clubs required to record any "sensitive" discussion they have with a player? I know at my workplace, HR would be all over making sure that such a discussion is recorded properly. Furthermore, are AFL clubs required to have an Indigenous liaison present when having these discussions with a First Nations player?

Why are coaches having these discussions at all?

These matters should be discussed with a club doctor or a welfare manager with relevant qualifications only.

 

[Blackhawk42]

In all honesty I think the AFL needs to wield a far bigger stick to Hawthorn than they gave to Carlton in 2000 for their cap rorting. This is far worse.

Kick them out of the draft for 5 years and take all picks away and hand them a $2m fine at the very least.

On SM-G781B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Because of very poor judgement from 3 individuals on a player welfare front?

It's as bad as anything that's been alleged in AFL history, but it has no link to Hawthorns on-field performance. A sanction relating to that would be mind-boggling.

Individuals terminated.
Any remaining members from an administrative perspective at the Hawthorn football club removed.
A financial sanction with all funds donated to indigenous charities and works.
A full time indigenous welfare officer implemented.

I don't envision any other reasonable punishment.

It's such a uniquely awful scenario that unlike drug cheating or draft tampering, it likely won't directly affect a specific incident to warrant the 'make an example' punishment.

I would be saying the same thing if it wasn't my club that was involved.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Aren't there emails confirming some of this stuff? Pretty sure I read that somewhere that the journo read some emails that confirmed what the players were saying. Possibly some dude at Hawthorn deleting evidence right now as we speak. It just becomes a he said she said game like the one Collingwood played with Lamumba unless there is refutable evidence or one of these blokes gets a guilty conscience and gives them all up. No doubt some s*** things were done and said, but perspective is everything i guess. The coming days will be interesting. Feel for the Cats and Swans. Neutrals have lost interest in the game as of this morning.

Emails aren't the same as a formal record. Because I reckon what we are potentially heading of is a "he said" type scenario. That the discussions were taken out of context, etc

Should They need to? Are we not suppose to be treating everyone as equals? Why should an indigenous player be treated any different than any other player? I thought we were trying to get away from this?

As I noted, ANY sensitive discussion with any player should be recorded as a matter of governance. That's not treating anyone different from any other player. That's treating everyone the same way. OK - make it that you can choose to have an Indigenous Liaison with you much like I have the option of having a union rep at any sensitive discussion I might have.

 

[Saint]

How was the Collingwood review a sham? It looked at Collingwood's responses to a series of racial incidents and concluded systems and responses disadvantaged people of colour and made a raft of suggestions for improvement.

How did one of the main victims of that feel about it? Wasn't exactly a healing project.

It seems like these reviews want to uncover a certain amount of bad behaviour, but never too much, never assign blame and make sure anything uncovered is easily fixed!

Heaven forbid they might find systemic problems which might take wide-ranging solutions including apologising for what has been done (rather than defending it, that it wasn't that bad)