Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[Strapping Young Lad]

I must admit I wanted DGB a lot in that draft. I would have taken him over Phillips and McDonald

We wanted Campbell. As did I.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

203cm Max Ramsden as the sub on the weekend?

Subbing off Mabior Chol the only forward that looked like scoring in a winnable game against Essendon

After 4 pre-seasons in charge there is nothing to suggest he is an even okay coach, other than he was a great player which counts for nothing.

15th for average disposals, last for average tackles should be inexcusable. But when you go in with that forward line full of individuals every week it is probably to be expected.

Strapping Young Lad

Interested to know which parts you disagree with.

Join the discussion instead of trolling. Set a better example as a moderator.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Strapping Young Lad

Interested to know which parts you disagree with.

Join the discussion instead of trolling. Set a better example as a moderator.

Nah, I’m good with lolling at half your posts.

Chol couldn’t even run after half time in Round 1 after a limited preseason, and again I will say that with the amount of time you spend reading the Hawk board for things to troll about in here it’s bloody amazing you missed that too.

 

[boncer34]

203cm Max Ramsden as the sub on the weekend?

Subbing off Mabior Chol the only forward that looked like scoring in a winnable game against Essendon

After 4 pre-seasons in charge there is nothing to suggest he is an even okay coach, other than he was a great player which counts for nothing.

15th for average disposals, last for average tackles should be inexcusable. But when you go in with that forward line full of individuals every week it is probably to be expected.

Essendon wasn't a winnable game. And Ginni and Moore gave us more trouble.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

203cm Max Ramsden as the sub on the weekend?

Subbing off Mabior Chol the only forward that looked like scoring in a winnable game against Essendon

After 4 pre-seasons in charge there is nothing to suggest he is an even okay coach, other than he was a great player which counts for nothing.

15th for average disposals, last for average tackles should be inexcusable. But when you go in with that forward line full of individuals every week it is probably to be expected.

Oh, I was talking about DGB, I stand by Mitchell not having the cattle to be judged too harshly

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Essendon wasn't a winnable game. And Ginni and Moore gave us more trouble.

6 points down at 3/4 time it was winnable. Plenty of Hawks supporters had it down as a win.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I’m not using Cornes opinion, but he’s clearly shown something for Cornes to even bother mentioning him. He hasn’t just plucked a name out of thin air.

Personally hate posters laying into kids calling them duds or busts. Drives me spare.

Parents of players read this s**t, and some of them even have to deal with mouthy *******s telling them what their kid needs to be better at.

Meh, the benefit of BF is their family would need to specifically seek out peoples opinion on their relative and given how passionate people are about sport, if they want to do that, that’s on them. It’s not twitter where it can just pop up.

Any a-hole that tells it directly to family members is not my problem

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Yet if Hawks fans had the opportunity of going back in time and selecting someone else they'd jump at the opportunity

There is no shame in acknowledging the player wasn't the best pick

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. People also have clear differences in perception of players talent, ability and production.

If capable and to go back and pick a different player in each draft.

2020 - Originally Grainger-Barras, Mitchell & Brockman
Perkins is the other option, or Zach Reid was the other key defender. But Denver was the clear best tall, needed to build the spine and went for it. Hindsight leaves us maybe getting class with Perkins but they would have a minimal spine even considering what is present now. I wouldn’t change it. Brockman was a good small who was lost to home sickness and Seamus Mitchell has been pretty good as a small running defender.

2021 - Originally Ward, MacDonald, and Butler.
Hawthorn could’ve picked Amiss but our midfield stocks were completely dry and needed to get more pace, skill and leadership which was done through Ward as the clear best pick and MacDonald as a later second. Gibcus the other but again, needed midfield talent more and best available. Butler as a premier small forward who hasn’t kicked on as we’ve liked and a horrific injury breaking his leg.

2022 - Originally Mackenzie, Weddle and Hustwaite.
From this group, I am not changing anything. Trading in for Weddle was clearly the play, he’s going to be a star. Cam Mackenzie will be very good, and Hustwaite was a later but good pick. The only options at Mackenzie pick were Ginbey, Phillipou etc but just no, Hawthorn made the best choices.

2023 - Originally Watson, McCabe (F/S) & Ryan (late pick)
No one here is changing, Watson discussion was what they’d do, but I doubt they would have needed another midfielder especially after how well performed they were and the depth built in the middle. Windsor, Sanders the only relevant points but just wouldn’t of happened, it was best available.

= too soon
= made it or will make it
= unsure
= left

Grainger Barras
Mitchell
Brockman
Ward
MacDonald
Butler
MacKenzie
Weddle
Hustwaite
Watson
McCabe
Ryan

Not in this group is
Newcombe & Day from mid season and 2019. Both
James Blanck also a too soon but think he will make it.

The point is hindsight is brilliant but you have to draft best available whilst also looking at your team, what is needed. We did both and did it well. All these players are also too early to right off, especially key positions. So it’s just an absurdly baseless argument.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Meh, the benefit of BF is their family would need to specifically seek out peoples opinion on their relative and given how passionate people are about sport, if they want to do that, that’s on them. It’s not twitter where it can just pop up.

Any a-hole that tells it directly to family members is not my problem

Good to know where you stand on these things.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

No, I saw his games. They were lackluster at best, but our entire backline was that way for a lot of those games too.

He kicked a couple of bags at Box Hill, so I thought he may have found a new home, but his summer never really got going and now he’s 1-2 weeks away from returning…to which end, I’m not entirely sure.

His future is in defense.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Ahh yes, the no one is allowed an opinion on an opinion site because of players families thing. I could like one of your Hawk mates and just back track and be stubborn on all my opinions I guess.

Staggering that DGB being a dud is such a controversial opinion for you guys to be honest. Great that you stand by your players though

He’s not a dud and it shows how very little you know about football. Your opinion isn’t relevant or at all important when you’re putting it the way you do. But just have some respect when giving an opinion. Especially as a moderator. You can say he’s not gonna make it, give reasons why, and make an articulate argument but instead you go baseless and that’s why no one cares. It’s how you say it, not the argument itself.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

203cm Max Ramsden as the sub on the weekend?

Subbing off Mabior Chol the only forward that looked like scoring in a winnable game against Essendon

After 4 pre-seasons in charge there is nothing to suggest he is an even okay coach, other than he was a great player which counts for nothing.

15th for average disposals, last for average tackles should be inexcusable. But when you go in with that forward line full of individuals every week it is probably to be expected.

Sam has made questionable decisions with sub, he seems to use it as a reward for players playing well and not just for tactics. Which is why he is pro 5 man bench. It’s a discussion many have. The side has been poor and with form especially, all of this can’t be put onto the coach, but can fall on the players either. It’s a mix. Last year especially mid and late season, showed his capacity coaching wise.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Essendon wasn't a winnable game. And Ginni and Moore gave us more trouble.

Essendon was winnable. Kick straight and Hawthorn win, should’ve won and were the better side on the day. Agree with that tho, Ginnivan and Moore were very good. Chol good but could barely run hence being subbed.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

He’s not a dud and it shows how very little you know about football. Your opinion isn’t relevant or at all important when you’re putting it the way you do. But just have some respect when giving an opinion. Especially as a moderator. You can say he’s not gonna make it, give reasons why, and make an articulate argument but instead you go baseless and that’s why no one cares. It’s how you say it, not the argument itself.

I’m not going into a dissertation on my opinion on every player I post an opinion on, I also refuse to be completely genial on my posts. Dud is nice enough, I even started with just “bad” which you disagreed with.

Despite having more talent, work ethic and ability in his little finger than I do in my whole body, he is clearly by almost any understanding of the word, currently an AFL dud in the same category as Fisher McAsey.

 

[boncer34]

Essendon was winnable. Kick straight and Hawthorn win, should’ve won and were the better side on the day. Agree with that tho, Ginnivan and Moore were very good. Chol good but could barely run hence being subbed.

Uh no.

 

[sr36]

I dont think they've cut too deep, they've only traded out a couple of senior players, I think they've whiffed on a couple of top 10 picks where you cant miss on any and rebuild quickly and havent hit massive quality down the order either outside Newcombe. Rebuilding is really hard once you have to start a list again, ask Brisbane from their threepeat, WC their run and watch the Tigers in the next few years. It's particularly hard when you dont have a F/S or Academy factory.

I feel Freo has actually drafted really well since 2016 arguably only completely missing on one top pick in Erasmus while finding later gems and we are still struggling to get out of the muck. You have to nail every single pick (particularly top ones) for like 6 years and they havent, combined with trying to top up for a final run between 2016 and 2018 and they dont have the talent to go anywhere yet.

It's also why Adelaide are struggling after drafting McAsey, Jones and McHenry (and possibly Thilthorpe and Pedlar but that's a different discussion)

I think you've got an excellent list. Your coach is ust too defensive. Losing Henry and Schultz hurt - it was a top 4 list with them.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Not sure why you predicted 14 wins if you knew this information.

He has played every game this year, and has been in full training since late December.

"I feel like we've been working really well together in training. Mitch had a slow start before Christmas but is now back into full training with me. I feel like we're bouncing off each other, communicating really well and I feel like our relationship is only going to get stronger the longer we work together," he said.

From an article you shared in February pumping him up. You also posted that he was capable of kicking 40+ goals. Remember the BigFooty search function is a powerful tool.

Seems like a convenient excuse now the season isn’t going the way you expected.

SYL like anyone, never predicted 14 wins, nor guaranteed finals. That’s just poor form.

Chol is capable and is talented, his application and consistency has been under the microscope. Effort wise I’ve been happy but he hasn’t played with Lewis enough and in his preferred role taking the second defender and rucking more.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Can we not turn this into a Hawthorn/Geelong shitfight please mate.

I didn't mention Geelong. So yes I'd prefer you didn't turn this into a shitfight.

DGB was rated by some list managers as the #1 talent in the open pool. We took him as the best player available. No one could have anticipated he wouldn't have come on as hoped.

In 2021 we also took Ward as the best player available. Our midfield at that stage was also Mitchell, O'Meara, Worpel, Shiels, Scully, Tom Phillips, Howe. It was a no-brainer.
Amiss we were told was a flight risk. Gibcus we should have taken in hindsight. NWM was a reach and we were and still are stacked for HBFs.

So (1) We ourselves prevented us from getting the cream of the crop and (2) The best player available at our pick hasn't worked out as well as we would have hoped so far. Not sure what's hard to understand about that.

I don't get the logic here. The fact these look like poor picks is ok because they were rated highly at draft time? "No one could've anticipated he wouldn't have come on as hoped"? What's the point of your recruitment and development teams then? Does Richmond picking Tambling get the same out because he was very highly rated which he was?

I'll give Ward the benefit of the doubt and say he's still a decent chance to be a good player. Although being dropped from a cellar dweller in your 3rd season is not a good sign.

But it's really hard to see how DGB is anything but a bust. 3rd year and James Blanck was being preferred to him repeatedly.

The point is if picks 6 and 7 aren't "cream or the crop" enough for you to pick up quality players it's going to be a long old rebuild.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Uh no.

Haha absolutely.

22 shots to 28.
17.5 to 11.17

Won inside 50s, contested possessions and ability to kill the Bombers on turn over. Who were better from clearance. (40-31).

Middle 2, 2nd and third. Late first and early fourth Hawthorn were all over the Bombers. Early in the first and late in the last quarter Essendon took toll but Hawthorn kick straight and win most times.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I’m not going into a dissertation on my opinion on every player I post an opinion on, I also refuse to be completely genial on my posts. Dud is nice enough, I even started with just “bad” which you disagreed with.

Despite having more talent, work ethic and ability in his little finger than I do in my whole body, he is clearly by almost any understanding of the word, currently an AFL dud in the same category as Fisher McAsey.

Then you’ll be ridiculed for your lacking knowledge on the topic and football if that’s how you’ll articulate yourself.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Then you’ll be ridiculed for your lacking knowledge on the topic and football if that’s how you’ll articulate yourself.

Haha ok

 

[Footy Smarts]

Took a big step this off season with his body, was looking good and came off back end form at VFL level which was class. He had a setback before that and was in and out of the AFL side playing different roles, cemented CHB once he went back for a block of VFL games and was preparing for 2024. Injury has subdued this although looks good and coming back from injury in the next week or so.

You're taking up DGB cause he "cemented CHB" in the VFL in his 3rd season? JFC.

 

[Jeremias]

Boy is this thread going to get interesting if DGB doesn't get his contract extended at Hawthorn beyond this season...

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Boy is this thread going to get interesting if DGB doesn't get his contract extended at Hawthorn beyond this season...

Or he is traded to another club, given looks most suited to the Sicily role.

 

[spudmaster]

Had a vision of him kicking his 100th during the home and away season and being swamped by supporters.