Here comes Workchoices III the elimination of penatly rates

[The Punter]

A lot of the commentary on here shows a disregard for how things will turn out.

The conservatives would love to break a union like the CFMEU that provide excellent results for their members. The CFMEU leave themselves open to attacks through the methods they use, but they're pretty good at being able to get through those attacks.

You could make a good argument that emergencies services are needed all the time and an emergency doesn't necessarily discriminate between business hours and weekends (of course there are busier times, like when alcohol gets involved), but those workers are heavily unionized and have negotiated those rates through agreements. Well done to them.

The people this will hurt are the non-represented or the poorly represented, like SDA members who seem to exist only to fund right-wing activities inside the ALP.

A slow approach to change seems to be the only way to proceed.

 

[Maggie5]

You sound about as credible as the people who go around saying that there's no such thing as global warming because they personally just experienced a very cold winter.

Give yourself an uppercut, go read the 470 page report on this topic from the Productivity Commission, and come back when you actually want to engage on the substantive evidence presented therein.

Muppet.

If you have really read the 470 page report, then you have missed reading about 531 pages as the draft report I looked at is 1001 pages.

 

[Power Raid]

A lot of the commentary on here shows a disregard for how things will turn out.

The conservatives would love to break a union like the CFMEU that provide excellent results for their members. The CFMEU leave themselves open to attacks through the methods they use, but they're pretty good at being able to get through those attacks.

You could make a good argument that emergencies services are needed all the time and an emergency doesn't necessarily discriminate between business hours and weekends (of course there are busier times, like when alcohol gets involved), but those workers are heavily unionized and have negotiated those rates through agreements. Well done to them.

The people this will hurt are the non-represented or the poorly represented, like SDA members who seem to exist only to fund right-wing activities inside the ALP.

A slow approach to change seems to be the only way to proceed.

breaking up a union doesn't net long term results. The Painters and Dockers Union and the BLF were both broken up and made illegal but the criminality continued. The only solution is long term jail sentences.


In regards to award wages etc.....surely the federal government should simply hand the issue over to the states. different jurisdictions require different work life balance and different needs. thus its better dealt with by the states. Similarly different occupations probably require different awards, ie hospitality probably need to work at dinner and weekends.

We should also consider the unemployed in this debate as unemployment in places like SA is usually crazy high and I think is about 8% ATM. The actual unemployed in SA is obviously much higher than that as the 8% only reflects those looking for work and not those who have given up or their government has given up on them (at a guess 20%).

 

[The Punter]

If you have lower wages in SA to attack unemployment people will just move to places with higher wages, especially if the cost of living isn't that much different.

The next step on that plan would be allowing different personal tax rates for the states ...

 

[sherb]

agree we need time out with our friends and family

the counter to that is, do we really want everyone working monday to friday 8-5 and putting a strain on our infrastructure?

do we also want to lock our youth out of work by not having cafes open?

its a tough one

This is a country with a big sporting culture.

It would be nice if people were able to play sport on the weekends too, instead of work.

 

[sherb]

We are a wealthy country, and I fundamentally dispute the notion of the 7 day a week economy (which BTW doesn't seem to apply to lawyers, judges, bankers, accountants, many government workers, etc) being something that we need.

Yes, funny that.

Let's have the courts open on weekends. Let's have parliament sit on weekends. Let's have MPs open their electorate offices on weekends (with the MP being available when not sitting in parliament). And so on.

 

[The Punter]

Yes, funny that.

Let's have the courts open on weekends. Let's have parliament sit on weekends. Let's have MPs open their electorate offices on weekends (with the MP being available when not sitting in parliament). And so on.

And schools open on weekends.

 

[Maggie5]

This is a country with a big sporting culture.

It would be nice if people were able to play sport on the weekends too, instead of work.

This is the page that I found most interesting in the report:

 

[The Punter]

Basically, all weekend days are created equal

 

[Gough]

Yes, funny that.

Let's have the courts open on weekends. Let's have parliament sit on weekends. Let's have MPs open their electorate offices on weekends (with the MP being available when not sitting in parliament). And so on.

Trying to make higher education unaffordable to some, denying the access to these sort of careers that come with a degree seems to be counter productive too.

 

[Maggie5]

Basically, all weekend days are created equal

Except that most sports are played on Saturdays and if you are a parent, taking kids to Little Athletics, Basketball, Cricket (this time of the year), Sunday is the only day left for family time/church.
So really not equal.

 

[Power Raid]

Perhaps we should have 4.5 days a week on a certain pay and over and above penalty rates

time for the 35 hour week!

 

[The Punter]

A 35 hour week where we all work only 35 hours, or a 35 hour week where we all work 3 hours overtime at a better rate?

 

[Power Raid]

If you have lower wages in SA to attack unemployment people will just move to places with higher wages, especially if the cost of living isn't that much different.

The next step on that plan would be allowing different personal tax rates for the states ...

That would be optimistic given many SA's won't move to get a job let alone higher pay.

perhaps we should close SA down and turn it into a national park?

 

[Power Raid]

A 35 hour week where we all work only 35 hours, or a 35 hour week where we all work 3 hours overtime at a better rate?

that can be decided by individuals and the market

 

[CbayT]

.

perhaps we should close SA down and turn it into a national park?

Thats called Tasmania

 

[madmug]

Thats called Tasmania

Good money in National Parks. Dopey mainlanders pay to see 'em

 

[meltiger]

Many of them are too thick to achieve that in Australia. See SPC, auto, Ansett etc.

German unions on the other have agreed to real wage cuts in the past to maintain employment.

I have what you would consider a fairly strong family relationship to someone who was payroll manager at Ansett for over 10 years...

Whilst yes, the unions and workers did consistently pull the usual shenanigans, the unions weren't the reason 15,000 people lost their jobs and were underpaid their entitlements.

#a Poor fleet choices by one particular CEO made the company far more expensive to runthan it needed to be

#b The federal governments (ongoing) protectionism towards Qantas and refusal to allow Singapore to buy more than 50% of the company resulting in

#c The NZ government owned Air New Zealand buying the company and stealing money and equipment from Ansett (Ansett paid Air New Zealand's jet fuel bills for the final 18 months as an example, Auckland bound 767s being loaded with plane parts the night before the administrators were called in being another) resulting in the company going into administration it could never escape from as the finance and payroll teams in Melbourne that had been parachuted in over the final 2 years ensured their was no funds in Ansetts accounts when Korda and co got their hands on the books.

I'm no fan of the more militants unions, but never ever blame them for what happened with Ansett. The real criminals there were the NZ Government and Air NZs management.

There was a reason the ground staff surrounded Helen Clarkes plane at Mascot whilst it was all happening...

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

The ideology of the penalty rate issue on sundays only seemed to apply to baristas, & perhaps bar staff. Apparently nurses, fireys & police were going to be exempt.

Whats with this picking on the makers of caffeine & alcohol based beverages? What have they ever done to the LNP?

They're represented by the AWU

 

[medusala]

Are you serious? Why would you take any report written for the Abbott government that was prepared by their appointees and use it as a benchmark?

Maggie the PC has prepared reports for both sides, its an independent govt department and unlike Treasury has a very good reputation (hence not being allowed near NBN). They are prepared to be scathing about govt policy as well.

.

The two arguments put forth to reduce these penalty rates are because:
a) increase employment - Wrong
b) More business will open on Sunday - Doubt it.

If the price of labour is decreased why wont demand increase? One would expect all things being equal that to be so.

Why do you not agree?

I can remember years ago unions tried to argue that Sunday trading shouldn't be allowed as no one would want to shop there anyway.

 

[Maggie5]

Maggie the PC has prepared reports for both sides, its an independent govt department and unlike Treasury has a very good reputation (hence not being allowed near NBN). They are prepared to be scathing about govt policy as well.
If the price of labour is decreased why wont demand increase? One would expect all things being equal that to be so.
Why do you not agree?
I can remember years ago unions tried to argue that Sunday trading shouldn't be allowed as no one would want to shop there anyway.

Yes I looked at who prepared the report and agree but it also depends on the scope that they were given.

With regard to your second points, I help out about 5 small business with their accounts (used to be 10 but 5 have closed down), retail, service, self employed tradesman. None of those that are in retail or service would put on another person if penalty rates were reduced. Only a small sample I know but also know a number of other traders in the shopping centre where they operate and they too are not opening on Sundays because of lack of traffic not because of paying higher rates. Coles and other major stores have agreements in place so doubt that they would either.

In so far as trading on Sundays, I recall the Hardware shop operator ran a very successful campaign for the right to open and the public has warmed to it.

Life styles have changed enormously in the past five years and I believe people work on Sundays for the penalty rates to increase their household income. Know a number of people that compromise week-ends with their family/children for the extra money. During the week they are either running around with dropping off their children to school or are stay at home mums or dads. The other category of part-time casuals are normally students and I imagine are doing it for the extra hourly rate whilst studying during the week.

Not sure what the answer is though.

 

[Pessimistic]

With housing costs among the highest in the world, what chance do we have to lower the cost of employing people ?

 

[kickazz]

We can't seriously contemplate lowering wages while essentials like rent and utilities continue to gouge people on lower incomes

 

[Sydney Bloods]

We can't seriously contemplate lowering wages while essentials like rent and utilities continue to gouge people on lower incomes

that extends to the greater issues of a lack of public housing.
having a roof over your head is fast becoming a luxury for poor and the nation seems happy with it.
next stop is illegal tenancies and ghettos like the US.

but cry socialism and let slip the dogs greed.

 

[noddy]

I'll keep asking the same question until you answer it, how does this report seek to off set the financial impact of lost wages in market that already accounts for people having those wages.

if you've read the report you would know that and although it excludes actually accessing it, It makes sure to point out that "some is likely to occur" prices will just drop man trust us!

Looks like you scared him/her off.