Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

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Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Khalidi's family were landowners and actually made a lot of money selling land to the zionists. Does he mention that in his pseudo-history polemics? Perhaps not.

More waffle, your posts are just a collection of whataboutism and half-truths. Your claims that right wingers don't tolerate corrupt gangsters are downright laughable, perhaps you are forgetting the CIA backed School of the Americas? Or perhaps you think Shah Pahlavi was a liberator of the Iranian people? Or talking about Islamist Theocrats do we need to go into the history of the Taliban?

Maybe you think the CIA et al are a bunch of left wing commies but somehow I doubt it.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Which wasn't just the Arabs Muslim leadership who were pissed. Ordinary people would have agreed to share control - instead, as TV Tropes notes in its Useful Notes page on the conflict, it was the Arabs who lived in the Mandate who truly lost the war as they lost a third of the land the PP had allocated to the Arab State to Israel. The PP borders were far larger than anything the Palestinians could hope for in 1949, let alone, now or going forward.

I guess that excuses Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing bordering on genocide to take over the rest of the land. Sins of the father eh?

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

I guess that excuses Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing bordering on genocide to take over the rest of the land. Sins of the father eh?

I remain mystified by the hard-line progressives' tactical alliance with radical Islam (PLO/Hamas) and non-Muslim fascist terrorists (LTTE). Maybe it will make sense someday but perhaps not.

 

[sr36]

It's generally the western left that support the Palestinian cause, yes. Centrists and right wingers rightly don't tolerate Islamist theocrats or corrupt gangsters.

What are you talking about? It's the left that reports on Iran or Saudi Arabia and has angst about the Islamic extemism there and the effect on the people. The rest don't give a s**t - until it affects bank balances or the extremism hits our shores - and then they play the racist/cultural supremacist card.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

What are you talking about? It's the left that reports on Iran or Saudi Arabia and has angst about the Islamic extemism there and the effect on the people. The rest don't give a s**t - until it affects bank balances or the extremism hits our shores - and then they play the racist/cultural supremacist card.

Then why the demands by the western left for an immediate ceasefire and Israeli withdrawal? When that likely would give Hamas and its Tehran puppeteers the ability to regroup and regain cohesion even if not control? What do you do when sanctions and diplomacy have failed?

 

[Chief]

Then why the demands by the western left for an immediate ceasefire and Israeli withdrawal?

Starving children and all that are just the price of FREEDOM.

 

[sr36]

Then why the demands by the western left for an immediate ceasefire and Israeli withdrawal? When that likely would give Hamas and its Tehran puppeteers the ability to regroup and regain cohesion even if not control? What do you do when sanctions and diplomacy have failed?

Because people are dying. In terms of International Politics - the left has been interested in people - the right has been interested in money making opportunities.

And frankly the next sentence is rubbish. The way Israel is conducting this war - all that will be left in Gaza is Hamas - or more likely something a fair bit worse than Hamas. They're not going to bomb away the idea that Israel is an infidel state that must be destroyed. They're growing that idea.

 

[PieLebo87]

This will be my last post.

One of the oldest Zionist apologetic arguments you'll hear is that the Jews were somehow "the original inhabitants" or Palestine and, thereby, Jerusalem. But, historically, the Jews never held Jerusalem for any significant amount of time compared to all the other nations that lived and ruled there.

For roughly 3500 years --Yes, say that figure out loud: THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS-- in what is called the Proto-Canaanite period, Jerusalem belonged to the Canaanites who worshipped many gods and godesses. It wasn't until 2000BC do scholars find a reference that debatably refers to Jerusalem. The word is "Rusalimum" in texts of Egypt's Middle Kingdom. Scholars believe that the name is a consecration to "Shalim" a Canaanite deity of the netherworld from Ugaritic scriptures.

The territory passed from the Canaanites to the Egyptians, ultimately. So here we have Egyptians and Canaanites being the original inhabitants of Jerusalem for 3,500 years before the Jews ever conquered it.

Jerusalem was taken by King David in 1010BC and lost to the Egyptians in 925BC. Jehoash of Israel briefly recaptured it in 786BC but then lost it to the Assyrians in 740BC. That's just 131 years, just about as long as the Crusaders' rule of Jerusalem in the Middle Ages.

The Jewish Hasmoneans re-took it in 140BC under Simon Thassi but then lost it to the Persian Seleucides in 134. That's 6 more years of Jewish rule. Due to a Seleucid civil war, Judeah incidentally became independent in the chaos in 116BC. In 87BC the Jewish Hasmonean king executed 800 Jews for sedition. In 47BC they lost Jerusalem again, this time to the Romans. That's 69 years of rule.

In total, off and on the Jews ruled Jerusalem for MAYBE 206 years.

The Pre-Constantine Romans ruled it for 250 years.

The Christian Byzantines ruled it for 304 years.

The Muslims ruled it under the Rashidun, Umayyad and Abbasid Empires for 332 years.

The Muslim Fatimids ruled it for 129 years.

The Crusaders took it from the Muslims and held it for 88 years.

The Muslim ruler Saladin conquered it in 1187 and his descendents held it for 63 years.

The Muslim Mamluk Empire ruled it for 236 years.

The Ottomans ruled it for 401 years.

That's 206 years of Jewish rule.

392 years of Christian rule.

And over EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS of Muslim rule.

And before any of them, the Canaanites and the Egyptians lived and ruled there for 3,500 years.

Longer than anyone.

So since the common Israeli argument that the Jews "deserve" Palestine because they are the “original" inhabitants has been proven a bold faced lie, based on this argument should we give Palestine away in this order?

Canaanites? Oops. The Bible says God ordered them exterminated to extinction in a genocide that included many other unfortunate nations:

"Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you." [Deuteronomy 20:17]

But, all was not lost. Some Canaanites apparently survived the Israelite genocide. Where are they?

Lebanon.

"We show that present-day Lebanese derive most of their ancestry from a Canaanite-related population, which therefore implies substantial genetic continuity in the Levant since at least the Bronze Age."

[Source: https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8]

[News report: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ally-solved-genetic-research-shows/519349001/

So the Lebanese are the people who scientifically and genetically are proven to be the original dwellers of not only Jerusalem but all of Palestine (so-called "Israel"). The argument should pretty much completely end there.

Actual history tells us that Jews ruled Palestine for barely over 2 centuries. The Christians ruled it for nearly 4 centuries, double that time. the Muslims ruled it for over 8 centuries, more than doubling the time the Christians ruled and QUADRUPLING the time that the Jews ruled. And as the Palestinian people are a religious confederation of Christians and Muslims, both consistently at peace with each other, that puts their birthright to it at 1200 combined years. Nearly a thousand years longer than Jews ever reigned over Jerusalem.

And like it always has been throughout Islamic history, the Jews are welcome to stay there, but as co-inhabitants with their Christian and Muslim neighbors. No barbwired walls, no soldiers shooting little kids, no stealing people’s homes like bandits, no apartheid separating Palestinians from Jews.

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/...ASE8WAPFjV3dMzMioczkcnumjLOEPo9ZIaXhqxF1ZeuaQ

 

[Number37]

I'm not glossing over it. Of course they deserve the right to self determination.

But Israel are the road block to it, so they're part of the equation.

Which part of the words self determination do you not understand?

 

[Saint]

Then why the demands by the western left for an immediate ceasefire and Israeli withdrawal? When that likely would give Hamas and its Tehran puppeteers the ability to regroup and regain cohesion even if not control? What do you do when sanctions and diplomacy have failed?

Because if the goal is to stop the deaths of civilians, stopping the IDF, before and after October 7th, would be the best use of effort. The IDF kills more civilians than Hamas ever has (except for a single day amongst 80 years).

It's not an alliance with Hamas. It's an acknowledgement that what the IDF has done is worse than what Hamas did.

They should both stop. That's what a ceasefire is.

Israel kills more people, has more hostages, has more weaponry and is stealing more land. In what way is supporting Israel more righteous than supporting Hamas? On what moral ground would you oppose Hamas but not Israel.

I oppose both and want both to stop shooting, because both are dedicated to the eradication of the other. It's a very simple position. It's not complicated. I'm not sure why you're pretending not to understand it.

 

[owen87]

Then why the demands by the western left for an immediate ceasefire and Israeli withdrawal?

Speaking from a personal perspective, I'm pretty anti-genocide and other war crimes. Whoever is committing them.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

Honestly, I'm just getting frustrated because there seems to be no equivocal pressure on Hamas.

I get that there are people trying to talk to them, but when people talk about how s**t everything is, it's all Israel is, but you know... Hamas is there too? When they talk about how negotiations aren't working or whatever, Hamas is never really brought up or blamed. It just bugs me because even though they're worse, it feels like because everyone knows they're not going to be reasonable, ever, they just give up on trying to make Hamas act reasonable, or holding them to account, or even considering them as a factor and actor in all this in their own right, and just concentrate on the more reasonable Israel.

Except, you know. Hamas is still there too.

Like, the US is angry at Israel for planning to attack Hamas in an area full of civilians, but I never hear anything about, 'Hamas is using their citizens as living shields and they're absolute shitheads for it'. Or, 'Here's what we'll do to help prevent 10/7 2: Blood Filled Buggalo if they don't attack the big Hamas military target'. There's just this drive for a ceasefire without dealing with the fundamental problem that made Israel start this in the first place. I don't know if Biden's just not saying it, or the media is ignoring it when he does, but feels like a cycle where pressure on Israel keeps getting mentioned, making people madder, making them want to up the pressure...

And then everyone's ignoring the people actually out to commit genocide.

I can think of four reasons:

1. Most people not knowing Hamas' true capabilities, as a well-armed, well-trained military numbering in the tens of thousands (pre-war, obviously).
2. Other people talking about Hamas in stupid ways ("Do you condemn Hamas" is a meme now).
3. Some Israelis hurting their cause with malicious acts of stupidity, like the settlement expansion plan.
4. I have noticed a rise of some leftists seeing Hamas not as a terrorist organization but as a liberation organization against the so-called white Zionist colonisers in their own words, now of course this is generally still in the fringe and mostly a bit of a far-left thing But I think there a rise of pro-Hamas people who see Hamas as just a innocent organization trying to liberate Palestine and not as it is a genocidal terrorist organization (the same reason their equally incompetent predecessors orgasmed over the POS Ho Chi Minh/Le Duan and the NLF/VC).

 

[sr36]

Honestly, I'm just getting frustrated because there seems to be no equivocal pressure on Hamas.

I get that there are people trying to talk to them, but when people talk about how s**t everything is, it's all Israel is, but you know... Hamas is there too? When they talk about how negotiations aren't working or whatever, Hamas is never really brought up or blamed. It just bugs me because even though they're worse, it feels like because everyone knows they're not going to be reasonable, ever, they just give up on trying to make Hamas act reasonable, or holding them to account, or even considering them as a factor and actor in all this in their own right, and just concentrate on the more reasonable Israel.

Except, you know. Hamas is still there too.

Like, the US is angry at Israel for planning to attack Hamas in an area full of civilians, but I never hear anything about, 'Hamas is using their citizens as living shields and they're absolute shitheads for it'. Or, 'Here's what we'll do to help prevent 10/7 2: Blood Filled Buggalo if they don't attack the big Hamas military target'. There's just this drive for a ceasefire without dealing with the fundamental problem that made Israel start this in the first place. I don't know if Biden's just not saying it, or the media is ignoring it when he does, but feels like a cycle where pressure on Israel keeps getting mentioned, making people madder, making them want to up the pressure...

And then everyone's ignoring the people actually out to commit genocide.

I can think of four reasons:

1. Most people not knowing Hamas' true capabilities, as a well-armed, well-trained military numbering in the tens of thousands (pre-war, obviously).
2. Other people talking about Hamas in stupid ways ("Do you condemn Hamas" is a meme now).
3. Some Israelis hurting their cause with malicious acts of stupidity, like the settlement expansion plan.
4. I have noticed a rise of some leftists seeing Hamas not as a terrorist organization but as a liberation organization against the so-called white Zionist colonisers in their own words, now of course this is generally still in the fringe and mostly a bit of a far-left thing But I think there a rise of pro-Hamas people who see Hamas as just a innocent organization trying to liberate Palestine and not as it is a genocidal terrorist organization (the same reason their equally incompetent predecessors orgasmed over the POS Ho Chi Minh/Le Duan and the NLF/VC).

What are you talking about?

Hamas has been listed as a terrorist organisation in Australia since the early 2000s - we've had sanctions on them ever since.

When a recognised government who is our allie and actually have the military capacity to completely destroy a group starts acting like a terrorist organisation, they're the focus and the one's that need to be stopped as soon as possible - because they've already made Oct 7 look like a minor event in comparison to what they're doing and will probably continue to do. But yes, Israel's war is going to increase sympathy and support for Hamas- all around the world. Israel is shooting their long term interests in the foot - big time.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Honestly, I'm just getting frustrated because there seems to be no equivocal pressure on Hamas.

I get that there are people trying to talk to them, but when people talk about how s**t everything is, it's all Israel is, but you know... Hamas is there too? When they talk about how negotiations aren't working or whatever, Hamas is never really brought up or blamed. It just bugs me because even though they're worse, it feels like because everyone knows they're not going to be reasonable, ever, they just give up on trying to make Hamas act reasonable, or holding them to account, or even considering them as a factor and actor in all this in their own right, and just concentrate on the more reasonable Israel.

Except, you know. Hamas is still there too.

Like, the US is angry at Israel for planning to attack Hamas in an area full of civilians, but I never hear anything about, 'Hamas is using their citizens as living shields and they're absolute shitheads for it'. Or, 'Here's what we'll do to help prevent 10/7 2: Blood Filled Buggalo if they don't attack the big Hamas military target'. There's just this drive for a ceasefire without dealing with the fundamental problem that made Israel start this in the first place. I don't know if Biden's just not saying it, or the media is ignoring it when he does, but feels like a cycle where pressure on Israel keeps getting mentioned, making people madder, making them want to up the pressure...

And then everyone's ignoring the people actually out to commit genocide.

I can think of four reasons:

1. Most people not knowing Hamas' true capabilities, as a well-armed, well-trained military numbering in the tens of thousands (pre-war, obviously).
2. Other people talking about Hamas in stupid ways ("Do you condemn Hamas" is a meme now).
3. Some Israelis hurting their cause with malicious acts of stupidity, like the settlement expansion plan.
4. I have noticed a rise of some leftists seeing Hamas not as a terrorist organization but as a liberation organization against the so-called white Zionist colonisers in their own words, now of course this is generally still in the fringe and mostly a bit of a far-left thing But I think there a rise of pro-Hamas people who see Hamas as just a innocent organization trying to liberate Palestine and not as it is a genocidal terrorist organization (the same reason their equally incompetent predecessors orgasmed over the POS Ho Chi Minh/Le Duan and the NLF/VC).

Israel committing genocide is much worse than whatever Hamas did.

Then there's the apartheid, collective punishment, forced displacement etc.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

Using WWII as an example, bombing Axis cities was needed to destroy German and Japanese industrial and logistical capability. Modern wars are not only fought between professional armies.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Using WWII as an example, bombing Axis cities was needed to destroy German and Japanese industrial and logistical capability. Modern wars are not only fought between professional armies.

Whataboutism is not a reasonable excuse for genocide.

You should be ashamed.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

That's still a horrible double-standard though. The idea that Israel should be somehow held to a higher moral standard than Hamas means that the latter's crimes should go uncommented at best, or be perceived as somehow justified at worst, while every move of Israel should be faced with maximum scrutiny.

I do not see that as a defensible position. Both Hamas and Israel should be held to the same standards, because both ultimately consist of individuals and all people are equal. Unless you somehow make the argument that all members of Hamas are somehow mentally deficient, they are entirely culpable for their own actions and should be condemned for them.

Like, the very idea that we should somehow be stricter towards fellow democracies while tolerating the atrocities of dictatorships because that's "just how they are" is completely foolish.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

That's still a horrible double-standard though. The idea that Israel should be somehow held to a higher moral standard than Hamas means that the latter's crimes should go uncommented at best, or be perceived as somehow justified at worst, while every move of Israel should be faced with maximum scrutiny.

I do not see that as a defensible position. Both Hamas and Israel should be held to the same standards, because both ultimately consist of individuals and all people are equal. Unless you somehow make the argument that all members of Hamas are somehow mentally deficient, they are entirely culpable for their own actions and should be condemned for them.

Like, the very idea that we should somehow be stricter towards fellow democracies while tolerating the atrocities of dictatorships because that's "just how they are" is completely foolish.

Everyone has condemned Hamas, months ago.

We are more concerned with the 6 months of horror unleashed on civilians by Israel since then.

why are you still stuck on Oct 7, ignoring what has happened since then?

 

[Chief]

The idea that Israel should be somehow held to a higher moral standard than Hamas means that the latter's crimes should go uncommented at best,

See this very thread for many, many people condemning that atrocity. And links to articles and videos of people condemning that atrocity.

or be perceived as somehow justified at worst, while every move of Israel should be faced with maximum scrutiny.

Yet again: Proportionality. Israel's response has been out of proportion. It's not aimed at removing Hamas - a threat which Bibi created - it's aimed at taking over all Palestinian land and removing the people, either by expulsion or death.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

See this very thread for many, many people condemning that atrocity. And links to articles and videos of people condemning that atrocity.


Yet again: Proportionality. Israel's response has been out of proportion. It's not aimed at removing Hamas - a threat which Bibi created - it's aimed at taking over all Palestinian land and removing the people, either by expulsion or death.

"Palestinian land"? The fantasy and self-style "State of Palestine" is a piece of political theatre designed to avoid direct no pre-conditions negotiations with Israel -- the only way that an actual Palestinian state will ever be created.

 

[Saint]

Nobody is tolerating Hamas except Qatar and Iran. We've already got sanctions on Hamas and Iran.

I agree we should sanction Qatar for supplying Hamas. But that's a slippery slope.

Israel on the other hand are supplied with weapons and money by Australia and our closest allies who we are also reliant on for arms.

We can't exactly sanction the US for supplying arms to Israel, they might cut us off!

Protests are aimed at changing Government behaviour. The pro-Palestinian or anti-Israeli protests were aimed at changing the Australian Govt approach to Israel.

There would be no point protesting against Hamas, there's not really anything more our Govt could do about it.

That's why it appears to be one-sided, but it actually isn't. Everyone objects to Hamas and action has been taken, even before Oct 7th. The immediate problem now is support to the Genocidal Israeli regime which needs to end, and the only way to end it is to convince our Govt to do so (which they slowly have, so the protests, I believe, have worked).

If Australia were supplying arms and money to Hamas, there would be reason to protest.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

"Palestinian land"? The fantasy and self-style "State of Palestine" is a piece of political theatre designed to avoid direct no pre-conditions negotiations with Israel -- the only way that an actual Palestinian state will ever be created.

So your TV tropes include Sky News?

 

[Saint]

"Palestinian land"? The fantasy and self-style "State of Palestine" is a piece of political theatre designed to avoid direct no pre-conditions negotiations with Israel -- the only way that an actual Palestinian state will ever be created.

"No Pre-conditions negotiations with Israel" is a mythical starting point for negotiations.

Israel and Palestine will never come to agreement and that's what Israel want, while they steal ever more land. Israel have no intention of making peace. Their leading Ministers have said so. Pretending that Israel and Palestine have to come to peace just between the two of them is a stalling tactic so that a Palestinian state is never formed.

Why should Palestine need Israel's approval to create a state? That's the most absurd position to adopt. If Palestine said Israel needs Palestine's approval to create a state, would that be true?

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

So your TV tropes include Sky News?

No, but that the three democracies out of the five Permanent Members of the UNSC don't recognise the PLO fantasy is more important that how many UNGA less developed countries does matter.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

"No Pre-conditions negotiations with Israel" is a mythical starting point for negotiations.

Israel and Palestine will never come to agreement and that's what Israel want, while they steal ever more land. Israel have no intention of making peace. Their leading Ministers have said so. Pretending that Israel and Palestine have to come to peace just between the two of them is a stalling tactic so that a Palestinian state is never formed.

Why should Palestine need Israel's approval to create a state? That's the most absurd position to adopt. If Palestine said Israel needs Palestine's approval to create a state, would that be true?

Because, mainly because of their own actions, the Palestinians don't have much leverage over Israel.