Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

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Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
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It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[owen87]

She's pretty clear with what she thinks there.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

and the corrupt feelingless israeli leadership do it with not a scintilla of remorse.

the amount of dead children in this whole thing is just utterly heartbreaking.

if you have kids, nothing hits harder.

 

[Not Important]

the amount of dead children in this whole thing is just utterly heartbreaking.

if you have kids, nothing hits harder.

yes, but the numbers are overwhelming on one side of the equation. the side armed with the most modern weaponry continues to kill children -hourly.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

yes, but the numbers are overwhelming on one side of the equation. the side armed with the most modern weaponry continues to kill children -hourly.

i dont disagree.

I have always said Israel have a much more advanced army and military capability, so they hold the measure of responsibility in this conflict, and they have failed miserably. They chose to go scorched earth instead of more targeted means.

 

[Saint]

Have a look at the cognitive dissonance on this media report.

Apparently the number of Hamas Israel say they have killed, plus the amount they say there are left to kill doesn't add up. So instead of questioning if Israel are just counting too many dead people as Hamas, they're re-framing it as "there were more Hamas than the IDF thought".

The obvious fact that the IDF are lying about how many of the people they've killed are Hamas (and how many of those are actually civilians) seems to skip past their thinking.

Surprise! Hamas has thousands more fighters than Israel initially thought - analysis

At least around 26,000 Hamas members have been put out of action by Israel to date when adding together killed, wounded, and arrested totals.

www.jpost.com

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I remain mystified by the hard-line progressives' tactical alliance with radical Islam (PLO/Hamas) and non-Muslim fascist terrorists (LTTE). Maybe it will make sense someday but perhaps not.

Or, and hear me out, the "hardline progressives" are against the wholesale murder of innocent civilians; the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians; the deliberate starvation of children; the complete destruction of a community of 2 million people including hospitals, schools, churches, mosques; the terrorism of Israeli settlers taking over their land and murdering, maiming and imprisoning their children; the ethnic cleansing of an entire population from their ancestral land so that it can be annexed by Israel; and any other number of war crimes committed by the ethno-fascist state of Israel.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Its like watching two rival biker gangs.
Yeah one is smashing the other, but you know if their positions were reversed, it would be exactly the same.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Does Israel quite understand the backlash that they are receiving from previously supportive governments and civilian populations ? Expanding settlements yet again under the smokescreen of the Gaza conflict is just doubling down and reinforcing negative perceptions of Israel.
I don't think there has been a lot of thought or any long term thinking about the response to October 7th and what the best response would be to Hamas. They had every right to respond militarily to Hamas but the over the top reaction targetting anything in Gaza and causing huge civilian casualties is not going to get much support outside of Israel. Domestically it will play well and the demonisation of all Palestinians is a part of that script. Not unless there is a long term bi partisan move to address the Palestinian issue in a fair and just manner will there ever be any chance of long term peace.
Israel will defeat Hamas but will be left with the ruins of Gaza with an extremely hostile population and the international community scrutinising their every move.They might even double down and try and invade southern Lebanon again. I think Netanhiyu is praying like hell Trump gets in , even Biden is starting to walk back from giving Israel unconditional support.
Wait for the pictures of starving Palestinians compared to concentration camp victims from WW2. IDF members ransacking homes , posing with prisoners , blowing up homes for fun , the repeated statements from
Government ministers wanting to ethnically cleanse Gaza and steal land for Israelis. I expect a lot more will come out later on after the end of the conflict. All of this is now on public record across the internet and social media , the narrative can't be controlled by Israel. It will be a stain on Israel they can't erase regardless how justified they think their actions are.
They might win the battle but they are losing the war.

( Before anyone attacks me I have previously condemned Hamas who's existence is going to be very short lived and I hope their vile legacy is equally scrutinised as much as Israel's)

It's absolute hubris on Israel's part, plain and simple. The "west"/US (and others) have allowed them to get away with so much for so long they feel they can just do what they want, say what they want and they'll get away with it. It has led to this current escalation where they are effectively wiping Gaza from the map, seeking to herd the civilians into Egypt and annex the land. I think they'll be shocked in time when the chickens start coming home to roost (first cab off the rank the ICJ hearings, second cab the US abstaining form UNSC vote, and more to come).

 

[Ballarat Bob]

The Israelis don't have a government that can throttle back. It is the most right wing government they could put together. Previously if the US tapped them on the shoulder they would pull back from going too far.
I still think that after the Gaza operation is completed they will attack Lebanon so Netanyahu can remain in power and avoid elections. Taking on Hezbollah would be a major operation and the consequences would be far more significant to Israel , it's not like the early eighties when they waltzed up to Beirut. Hezbollah have significantly rearmed since the last major clash with Israel and would be more than willing to take Israel on.
If the Israeli government ends up trying to govern Gaza and strike Hezbollah they would be pretty much in a permanent state of being fully mobilised which would not only take workers away from their jobs but would put a significant strain financially on the economy.
Without a new election and the current government in power I don't see anything changing much , the US had the chance to stop them by restricting or delaying arms sales until certain conditions were met.
The trouble I see is that even if Bibi gets the arse a new coalition would still be right of centre if not quite as radical as the existing government. I am not sure that much will change there.

 

[Not Important]

it’s unfathomable to me, izzy. yet the latest figures from israel show most israelis support the massacre. may those responsible and their fellow travellers all get their comeuppance.

 

[Not Important]

sadly, they’ve had little choice. comparatively, they have pop-gun weaponry. the west has looked away. even now given them little support, unlike ukraine. the yanks have financed state-of-the-art weaponry, surveillance, and intelligence and turned a blind eye to the occupation and terrorism. we should all hang our heads in shame.

 

[Number37]

it’s unfathomable to me, izzy. yet the latest figures from israel show most israelis support the massacre. may those responsible and their fellow travellers all get their comeuppance.

Israelis aren't interested in stopping the genocide. They never have been.
Israelis are only interested in cleansing Palestinians from the Palestinian homeland so that they can steal all the land for themselves.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Israelis aren't interested in stopping the genocide. They never have been.
Israelis are only interested in cleansing Palestinians from the Palestinian homeland so that they can steal all the land for themselves.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-poll-finds-49-support-holding-off-gaza-invasion-2023-10-27/

Nearly half are.
Forming stereotypical opinions is half the problem we have on this planet.

In this case it doesn't matter how many years the "people" have been there. ( Homeland).
Nearly everyone there , Palestinian and Israeli was born there and has no-where else to go.

I don't know a solution.
I've seen suggestions that a single , secular , democratic state should be imposed.
I think this is where democracy lets us down.
The biggest population would win, and impose its own religious based government, and supress the rest.

Now if i was dictator, i'd fix it, but i'd probably cop a bullet from a religious nutjob.

 

[barreness]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-poll-finds-49-support-holding-off-gaza-invasion-2023-10-27/

Nearly half are.

Six month old poll, keep up

Forming stereotypical opinions is half the problem we have on this planet.

In this case it doesn't matter how many years the "people" have been there. ( Homeland).
Nearly everyone there , Palestinian and Israeli was born there and has no-where else to go.

Enlightened centrist take

I don't know a solution.

Yes you do

I've seen suggestions that a single , secular , democratic state should be imposed.

oh there it is

I think this is where democracy lets us down.
The biggest population would win, and impose its own religious based government, and supress the rest.

Yeh so the Israeli population is genocidal, glad we've come to this knowledge

Now if i was dictator, i'd fix it, but i'd probably cop a bullet from a religious nutjob.

Too uncharismatic for me

 

[Number37]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-poll-finds-49-support-holding-off-gaza-invasion-2023-10-27/

Nearly half are.
Forming stereotypical opinions is half the problem we have on this planet.

In this case it doesn't matter how many years the "people" have been there. ( Homeland).
Nearly everyone there , Palestinian and Israeli was born there and has no-where else to go.

I don't know a solution.
I've seen suggestions that a single , secular , democratic state should be imposed.
I think this is where democracy lets us down.
The biggest population would win, and impose its own religious based government, and supress the rest.

Now if i was dictator, i'd fix it, but i'd probably cop a bullet from a religious nutjob.

That's just nonsense.

Israeli parliament has been getting more and more and more extremist every election.
Who has been voting for these extremists more and more? Answer: Israelis.

These extremist parties in Israel don't hide what they want to do, and never have.
Israelis claiming that they just want peace when they are voting pro-genocide is just another Zionist con.

 

[Number37]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-poll-finds-49-support-holding-off-gaza-invasion-2023-10-27/

Nearly half are.

Before all this started the Jewish population of Palestine was 6%.
The overwhelming majority of Israelis are blow-ins or descendants of blow-ins.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I think this is where democracy lets us down.
The biggest population would win, and impose its own religious based government, and supress the rest.

Israel is an apartheid state, not a democracy.

 

[Maggie5]

Yeah one is smashing the other, but you know if their positions were reversed, it would be exactly the same.

But they aren't !
Stick with the now!

 

[sr36]

That's just nonsense.

Israeli parliament has been getting more and more and more extremist every election.
Who has been voting for these extremists more and more? Answer: Israelis.

These extremist parties in Israel don't hide what they want to do, and never have.
Israelis claiming that they just want peace when they are voting pro-genocide is just another Zionist con.

Israel doesn't have our electoral system. It's proportional rather than preferential. It's always a coalition government. 3.25% of the vote gives you 4 seats in the Knesset. Bibi's party got less than 25% of the vote. The far right groups get very small %s, but that gets them seats in parliament due to their parliamentary system.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That's just nonsense.

Israeli parliament has been getting more and more and more extremist every election.
Who has been voting for these extremists more and more? Answer: Israelis.

These extremist parties in Israel don't hide what they want to do, and never have.
Israelis claiming that they just want peace when they are voting pro-genocide is just another Zionist con.

A vote is a majority, but its not close to all.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

But they aren't !
Stick with the now!

What do you wan't

Israeli's are committing genocide , they should stop, ohh the poor children, repeat infinitum.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Israel is an apartheid state, not a democracy.

I don't think you managed to follow what i was saying.

I said
"
I don't know a solution.
I've seen suggestions that a single , secular , democratic state should be imposed.
I think this is where democracy lets us down.
The biggest population would win, and impose its own religious based government, and supress the rest."

It then becomes a breeding race.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I don't think you managed to follow what i was saying.

I said
"
I don't know a solution.
I've seen suggestions that a single , secular , democratic state should be imposed.
I think this is where democracy lets us down.
The biggest population would win, and impose its own religious based government, and supress the rest."

It then becomes a breeding race.

Not really. You could put structures in place that would ensure no simple majority could create laws that would be detrimental to minority groups similar to the US Bill of Rights for example. You could build fundamental pillars into the government structure, laws, rights etc to prevent that. A modern liberal democracy doesn't (or shouldn't) just mean mob rule.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Before all this started the Jewish population of Palestine was 6%.
The overwhelming majority of Israelis are blow-ins or descendants of blow-ins.

Almost the same with Australia as an English colony. ( Australia blows it out of the water with respect to he Indigenous population).
What do you think should happen to the blow ins?

Its kind of amazing that when it all started, the entire population was only around a million. So i guess it would have seemed like plenty of land for everyone at the time.

 

[Maggie5]

What do you wan't

Israeli's are committing genocide , they should stop, ohh the poor children, repeat infinitum.

Such a caring person you are.